[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

Having perused this forum for nearly 4 months now, I am given to believe that the "typical" Malazan experience is as follows:

1. New reader plods through GotM.

2a. Reader is somewhat frustrated, but recognizes something special in Erikson's writing and therefore proceeds willingly to Deadhouse Gates.

OR

2b. Reader is hopelessly frustrated and needs to be convinced by others to continue on to Deadhouse Gates.

3. Reader picks up Deadhouse Gates, finds Jesus on the road to Aren (or The Path of Hands) and is now fully converted into a slobbering fanboy/girl.

I find myself in the odd position of not fitting into this mold. My slobbering fanboy conversion happened as of about chapter 2 in GotM. And while Deadhouse Gates easily achieves "one of the best fantasies I've ever read" status, I find myself wishing it had been more like GotM. Here are a few things I found unsatisfying:

1. I felt like there was something missing from the Felisin storyline. There's no character arc. She's an amoral smartass who intentionally wounds with words. Given what she's been through, her sour personality is understandable. I have no complaints about that. My quibble concerns the fact that there is absolutely no growth to this character until Baudin dies and she becomes Sha'ik. As far as character evolution goes, this is too much "light switch" and not enough "learning curve."

2. The Kalam storyline is too long. The page-count : important-stuff-that-happens ratio seems lopsided.

3. The Path of Hands storyline is too short. I thirst for more Icarium and Erikson is trying to quench my thirst with an eyedropper.

4. The Chain of Dogs storyline wanders, and the Coltaine character is not developed enough. When he died and thousands of crows were required to carry his soul away, I wanted to feel emotion. I didn't. This is a weakness in Erikson's writing, I think. By comparison, I am only ~ 200 pages into Game of Thrones, but GRRM has elicited 10 times the emotional impact in those few short chapters than anything I've felt in the 2 Malazan books. (Don't get me wrong...Erikson's epic world-building trumps Martin's "making me sad when something bad happens to a character"... Still...I'd love to be able to have my cake and eat it too.)

Having said that...intellectually, I can recognize that Deadhouse Gates contains the "technically" superior writing. I just enjoyed GotM more...much more. Maybe it's just the fact that the WTH moments are so fast and furious in GotM. In the first 2 chapters alone...1) a couple of mysterious strangers and some old witch (my limited understanding, at the time) cause a fishergirl to become possessed by an assassin, 2) a cadre a mages do battle with a freaking flying mountain, 3) one of said mages is cut in two and his soul is transferred into a freaking puppet, 4) and on and on. Something weirdly awesome happened every few pages. (This was such a refreshing change from the typical "farmboy meets destiny" storyline, in which moderately interesting things happen to one main character...slowly...oh so slowly.) By comparison, Deadhouse Gates is a bunch of characters wandering around the desert, and every once in a while something weirdly awesome happens.

On the plus side, I am 3 chapters into Memories of Ice and...me likey.

[Meris]

I mostly agree with you. Although I only went full fanboy a few chapters into MoI. I read GotM, was confused, read halfway into DG, so frustrated I stopped. Maybe a year later I though that the story and scope was really epic and I should definitely give it another go to see where it all leads and to make sense of it. Read GotM again, this time got 3/4 into DG, stopped again. Few months later had the same yearning again and read the final half of DG and started MoI. Hooked since.

What made DG so difficult to read, for me anyway, was that I didn't like the setting and I didn't like the characters. I didn't like Felisin or Heboric. Didn't get to know Baudin/Kulp well enough. I liked Duiker and I almost liked Icarium/Mappo scenes. It was just fairly dull stuff compared to GotM. I was emotionally invested however by the time Coltaine died, but this might just be because I read the Chain of Dogs arc three times before I actually got to Coltaine's fall.

[worry]

I'm not sure that's typical at all. I mean those options certainly happen, but at least for people who hang out here, GotM is adored, wasn't plodding at all. Some folks were certainly confused initially, but I think the vast majority of posters here found it highly pleasurable because/in spite of/etc., and nobody's shy to point out its flaws anyway. But reading GotM wasn't a labor at all.

1. Teenagers (outside of The Breakfast Club and Cameron from Ferris Bueller) shouldn't be expected to have dramatic arcs; it's atypical in the short-term. That said, under some extraordinary circumstances, Felisin definitely has one, though it goes from regular upper class teenage girl to viciously self-preserving trauma victim. And of course, that's just the one book.

2. Any time spent with Kalam is quality time, by definition.

3. Agreed. I'd like to have seen a few more D'ivers/Soletaken along the way, though I suppose there's good reason most of them are in pure animalistic frenzy mode.

4. Coltaine is kept at a distance deliberately, like it or not. It would have been inappropriate to get to know his minutiae.

[Lady Bliss]

I somewhat agree with you...

GoTM was my favorite, but the first half of the book was such a hard read! I too had the WTH moments, and I often found them distracting. I felt thrust into this totally new world naked, and missing the history I needed to completely understand what was going on, and the ramifications of character's actions. By the second half of the book, I felt like understood the world and its characters, and the story took off for me. I was in love and completely hooked on the series by the end!

With DG, I was more than a bit disappointed that I wasn't getting another full dose of Bridgeburner action, but the Chain of Dogs grew on me, and I ended up treasuring every word about them. The Felisin arc was a little slow at first as well, but I felt compelled to watch the tragedy of her downfall. I could have done without Heboric, he was the book's Neelix or Jar Jar Binks as far as I was concerned, and I would have killed him off myself to be done with him. Kalam is a badass, but I felt like I was missing Quick Ben.

I may sound overly critical, but overall DG ended up being a close second. With these first books, I had to get used to the time it takes to get to know SE's new characters, and have grown to love the journey. I get quite a bit more out of each book doing the re-reads!

[Abyss]

Kruppe, on 14 February 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

Having perused this forum for nearly 4 months now, I am given to believe that the "typical" Malazan experience is as follows:

1. New reader plods through GotM.

2a. Reader is somewhat frustrated, but recognizes something special in Erikson's writing and therefore proceeds willingly to Deadhouse Gates.

OR

2b. Reader is hopelessly frustrated and needs to be convinced by others to continue on to Deadhouse Gates.

2c - Reader totally digs GotM, has no problem with not knowing every little aspect of what's happening, moves on to DG and is blown. Away.

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...1. I felt like there was something missing from the Felisin storyline. There's no character arc. She's an amoral smartass who intentionally wounds with words. Given what she's been through, her sour personality is understandable. I have no complaints about that. My quibble concerns the fact that there is absolutely no growth to this character until Baudin dies and she becomes Sha'ik. As far as character evolution goes, this is too much "light switch" and not enough "learning curve."

Unfortunately or fortunately, many storylines in DG only get their ultimate pay-off in later books.

Quote

2. The Kalam storyline is too long. The page-count : important-stuff-that-happens ratio seems lopsided.

No it isn't.
It's pure pages and pages of awesome Kalam action.

Also, there's a lot more going on than is obvious, in terms of Kalam's inner struggle between his 7C and Malazan loyalties.
And virtually every segment of Kalam's journey actually reveals something important, although it's not always obvious.

Quote

... I thirst for more Icarium and Erikson is trying to quench my thirst with an eyedropper.

That's an SE standard. If he told us everything up front we wouldn't demand more nearly as fervently. keep reading.

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4. The Chain of Dogs storyline wanders, and the Coltaine character is not developed enough. When he died and thousands of crows were required to carry his soul away, I wanted to feel emotion. I didn't. This is a weakness in Erikson's writing, I think. ...

Must disagree. The brilliance of Coltaine's storyline is that it's all from the perspective of other people looking at him, in scepticism to eventual awe. he did the impossible, in the face of obstacles internal and external. By the time he dies, he's larger than life.

Quote

Having said that...intellectually, I can recognize that Deadhouse Gates contains the "technically" superior writing. I just enjoyed GotM more...much more. Maybe it's just the fact that the WTH moments are so fast and furious in GotM. In the first 2 chapters alone...1) a couple of mysterious strangers and some old witch (my limited understanding, at the time) cause a fishergirl to become possessed by an assassin, 2) a cadre a mages do battle with a freaking flying mountain, 3) one of said mages is cut in two and his soul is transferred into a freaking puppet, 4) and on and on. Something weirdly awesome happened every few pages. (This was such a refreshing change from the typical "farmboy meets destiny" storyline, in which moderately interesting things happen to one main character...slowly...oh so slowly.) By comparison, Deadhouse Gates is a bunch of characters wandering around the desert, and every once in a while something weirdly awesome happens.

On the 'massive events' scale, i agree. DG is way more 'human' and low key vs the sheer fantasy holy dragonfucknuts did i just READ THAT events in GotM. While the end of the Path of Hands is pretty epic, there is nothing on the scale of five dragons swooping down on Raest and Raest ATTACKING. On the other hand, 13 or so books and counting, Kalam turning the Claw's hunt back on them remains one of my favorite action sequences in the entire series. We spend the entire book hearing characters talk in awe about Kalam. holy fuck it's Kalam. Kalam needs to get in the game. oh no it's Kalam, etc etc... and then he's on the ship and Pearl knifes him and over he goes and drags his sorry wet wounded ass onto the beach and it's all very not impressive. And the Claw is after him. Oh noes, better hide.... And then he goes hunting. For Claw. He grabs some crap from an empty warehouse and starts killing assassins t the point that Topper and Laseen send the Entire Frikkin Claw at him. And even then he doesn't stop. He stabs. He throws heavy things. He breaks necks. He brushes off spells. He calls in rat dog reinforcements. It's assassin action epic fantasy at its best. By the time Minala rides to the rescue we know EXACTLY why everyone is in awe of him.

Now, all that said...

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On the plus side, I am 3 chapters into Memories of Ice and...me likey.

I envy you for what you're abut to read for the first time. You are going to LOVE that book.

[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

worrywort, on 14 February 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

1. Teenagers (outside of The Breakfast Club and Cameron from Ferris Bueller) shouldn't be expected to have dramatic arcs; it's atypical in the short-term. That said, under some extraordinary circumstances, Felisin definitely has one, though it goes from regular upper class teenage girl to viciously self-preserving trauma victim. And of course, that's just the one book.

It's funny to me that we're referring to an 800 page book as the "short-term" arc. Just goes to show that one really does need to read the whole series. People who abandon it after GotM don't know what they're missing.

Regarding the "arc" from regular girl to trauma victim, we don't really see much of pre-trauma Felisin. She's apparently a sweet, normal girl, judging by the Tavore/Ganoes conversation in GotM (as I recall, Felisin never actually appears "onscreen" in the first book). So this arc is another example of what I would call a "lightswitch" conversion. There may very well have been a gradual decline in Felisin's demeanor, but we don't see it. Her original traumas occur offscreen and we know her as the angry and cynical Felisin practically from the beginning. Then a tiny glimmer of tenderness when Baudin dies. And then she becomes Sha'ik and starts calculating her moves. Her wrath is now focused on the Empire, rather than the people trying to help her. But again, this is not an arc, it's a lightswitch. Maybe there is a good character arc for Felisin over the course of the series, but I did not see one in this book.

[worry]

You have to see it in your mind's eye.

[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

worrywort, on 15 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

You have to see it in your mind's eye.

I actually had no particular problem with the quick transition from "normal" to "traumatized." Because the "mind's eye" understands what trauma can do to someone's personality. And it also understands that the change was presumably more gradual than we were shown, given that the story jumps forward several months in time.

Regarding the transition from Felisin to Sha'ik, there may very well be something mystical at work, so again, not as troublesome that there was a sudden personality shift.

It's the middle 70% of the book that bothered me. Same exact Felisin throughout. The Felisin you read about on page 86, was the same Felisin you read about on page 568. Nary a glimmer of change, no weakening or strengthening of the cynical wall she had built around herself, no learning curve whatsoever. You could practically predict what she was going to say next. There may very well be a good reason for this, but like I said, it just left me feeling like something was missing. I guess I just wanted to see a glimmer of humanity or a chink in her armor somewhere in those middle 500 pages. Some sign that she was evolving or learning something. If it was there, I didn't see it.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Kruppe, on 15 February 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

worrywort, on 15 February 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

You have to see it in your mind's eye.

I actually had no particular problem with the quick transition from "normal" to "traumatized." Because the "mind's eye" understands what trauma can do to someone's personality. And it also understands that the change was presumably more gradual than we were shown, given that the story jumps forward several months in time.

Regarding the transition from Felisin to Sha'ik, there may very well be something mystical at work, so again, not as troublesome that there was a sudden personality shift.

It's the middle 70% of the book that bothered me. Same exact Felisin throughout. The Felisin you read about on page 86, was the same Felisin you read about on page 568. Nary a glimmer of change, no weakening or strengthening of the cynical wall she had built around herself, no learning curve whatsoever. You could practically predict what she was going to say next. There may very well be a good reason for this, but like I said, it just left me feeling like something was missing. I guess I just wanted to see a glimmer of humanity or a chink in her armor somewhere in those middle 500 pages. Some sign that she was evolving or learning something. If it was there, I didn't see it.

See I think it was there. If only in raraku. Before that she actively resists learning or thinking, because her situation is so traumatic. Other characters can't see through her cynicism, but we do a few times - regretting an unthinking barb at he boric, wishing she could change her ways.

[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

Sinisdar Toste, on 15 February 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

See I think it was there. If only in raraku. Before that she actively resists learning or thinking, because her situation is so traumatic. Other characters can't see through her cynicism, but we do a few times - regretting an unthinking barb at he boric, wishing she could change her ways.

It was apparently too subtle for me to pick up on, then. But I see your point.

See, I can be reasoned with, when someone cites examples...

[BlackMoranthofDoom]

I voted for the option of liking them both equally as i feel both books are amazing in their own way, yet each has its own unique feeling. DG was a lot easier to follow than GOTM though.

[Orlion]

I enjoyed Deadhouse Gates the same as Gardens of the Moon on the first read. Memories of Ice is what really sealed the deal for me as far as continuing the series no matter what. On subsequent re-reads, however, I've come to reeeeallly like Gardens of the Moon... to the point that I now think it may be better than Memories of Ice! That may make me madder than a March Hare, but.... erm... yeah, there it is.

[Kazemeryx]

I think the hardest thing about DG was adjusting to all the new characters, especially after having just started the series. It is hard to leave the characters of the first book after becoming connected to them.

[Serenity]

Abyss, on 14 February 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

2c - Reader totally digs GotM, has no problem with not knowing every little aspect of what's happening, moves on to DG and is blown. Away.

What Abyss said. I was hooked by GotM from the start, and DG is one of the first books I can remember where the hairs on the back of my neck were standing on end as I finished it. I'll never forget that.

[powerclaw]

DG was actually the first one of the series I read (it had just come out when I read it) and although I was completely confused for most of it I still couldn't put it down. Coltain's arch with the Chain of Dogs was so brutally unfair and soul-wrenching. I can't see how you didn't feel for him. For the cattle-dogs going down under a mass of spears. For the final few soldiers dying without even having the energy left to raise their swords, just putting their flesh between Coltain and the enemy. For the garrison of the Aren having to watch this and then getting crucified in their entirety. This was actually the most brutal scene.

On an unrelated note, reading Gardens of the Moon after a bunch of the others in the series made me more sorry to see Whiskeyjack go then I otherwise would have I think.

So yeah, DG for the win.

[End of Disc One]

I'm totally with the TC here. I loved GotM from about the second chapter, and everyone on the internet kept saying DG was so much better. It ended up letting me down and remained the only book in the series besides Toll the Hounds that I had to force myself to read.

[Gorro]

I found DG an easier read than GOTM. It took me about 2/3 of GOTM to "get it." For a lot of the book I was going "this chap can't write." I think my "Aha" moment came when the assassins guild, Rake and the bridgeburners clash on the rooftops and I realised I'd worked out what the Assassins war was about well before it was spelled out for me - very satisfying. SE was laying out the jigsaw puzzle and inviting me to put the pieces together.

Deadhouse gates - Forget Coltaine - Iskarel Pust and his devoted little Bhokarala just cracked me up the whole way through. SE humour is brilliant.

[JLV]

You're all dirty hipsters.

[Deck of Dragons]

I really enjoyed Deadhouse Gates, but I vastly preferred Gardens of the Moon. Deadhouse Gates is a far less epic and a slower-paced book. The last 3rd of Deadhouse Gates really picks up though!

[Abberon]

I think Deadhouse Gates best exemplified what the MBotF is and (imo) should be. I've been told the series is really supposed to be a history of events in the Malazan World, and this was brilliantly done with Duiker and the chain of Dogs. DG, I think, struck a really good balance with the number of PoV's, the theme and the coherence of the plot. You had Duiker and the Chain of Dogs, Kalam, and Heboric as 3 different storylines, and they were all relevant, interesting and went somewhere. These are merits that, to varying degrees, he failed to repeat in subsequent volumes.