[Veal]

Ceda Kuru Qan is one of the most fascinating characters. Clearly very Dumbledore-like - genius and eccentric and very powerful. He alone could have stopped the Edur invasion if he had not made a few ? one crucial mistake(s) I think.

First he should have told his King - Hey I have a plan (which involves drawing your enemy to the very gates of your throne room but I am not crazy so no need to prepare any poisoned wine or anything). Or not. Perhaps that would not have changed much. The King drank the wine after the Ceda was death so whatever.

What he should have done is post guards (normal who can do the hand to hand fighting so that some random enemy does not put a spear through him while on the verge of defeating the enemy's main sorcerer).

And actually if he had defeated the Warlock King, would the power he wielded have been enough to destroy Rhulad and the sword once and for all ?

[Trull's son]

I think i agree with almost everything you said. Especially about informing the king about the plans...

As for the Ceda being powerful enough to destroy Rhulad and the sword, I guess it's possible. We would have to get into later books to discuss the possibility in any more detail.

[Defiance]

The Ceda is awesome, but I always thought that Dumbledore was one of the most hypocritical characters I've ever read (and not in a good way). I mean, he's supposed to be this big genius, and yet he falls for all sorts of stupid tricks (such as being lured away from the castle at the end of the first book). If he's so intelligent, why is it that Harry and crew always find the answers to things, not him? He also puts Harry unnecessarily at risk numerous times. And god, I probably don't even have to mention how terrible he is at hiring teachers. Sure, the Defense position was supposed to be hard to fill, but he ended up choosing some of the worst candidates possible.

Sorry, a bit off topic. Anyway, I think it's partially the hubris of mages. They believe they're so incredibly powerful and can wipe out regular mortals in the blink of an eye, and yet it's those regular mortals who usually end up doing them in.

[DragniRake]

earlier a poll was brought up: Kuru Qan vs Tayschrenn. The fact that the Ceda is good enough to be lumped together with Tayschrenn is astounding. Its been said countless times that Tayschrenn is the most powerful mage in Wu, in terms of sheer power. And we all saw what Kuru Qan can do when he prepares a ritual like he did when the Edur invaded Letheras. I think that, if anybody could have been able to outright obliterate Rhulad, the Ceda would have been one of the best choices.

[Trull's son]

DragniRake, on 12 February 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

earlier a poll was brought up: Kuru Qan vs Tayschrenn. The fact that the Ceda is good enough to be lumped together with Tayschrenn is astounding. Its been said countless times that Tayschrenn is the most powerful mage in Wu, in terms of sheer power. And we all saw what Kuru Qan can do when he prepares a ritual like he did when the Edur invaded Letheras. I think that, if anybody could have been able to outright obliterate Rhulad, the Ceda would have been one of the best choices.

I would have to agree. I may be wrong, but couldn't the other Letherii mages sort of "tap" into the Ceda's power to bolster their own? It has been a while, so I may be off the mark. But if the sorcery used by the Letherii against the Edur is any indication, then we may have witnessed a demonstration of his power diffused among the other magi. If we take that into account, I guess its reasonable to assume that he may have been the only one on the continent, (if not the whole of Wu at that time) to be able to stop Rhulad.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Trull, on 12 February 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

DragniRake, on 12 February 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

earlier a poll was brought up: Kuru Qan vs Tayschrenn. The fact that the Ceda is good enough to be lumped together with Tayschrenn is astounding. Its been said countless times that Tayschrenn is the most powerful mage in Wu, in terms of sheer power. And we all saw what Kuru Qan can do when he prepares a ritual like he did when the Edur invaded Letheras. I think that, if anybody could have been able to outright obliterate Rhulad, the Ceda would have been one of the best choices.

I would have to agree. I may be wrong, but couldn't the other Letherii mages sort of "tap" into the Ceda's power to bolster their own? It has been a while, so I may be off the mark. But if the sorcery used by the Letherii against the Edur is any indication, then we may have witnessed a demonstration of his power diffused among the other magi. If we take that into account, I guess its reasonable to assume that he may have been the only one on the continent, (if not the whole of Wu at that time) to be able to stop Rhulad.

but thanks to your daddy, we'll never know!

[Whiskey Bass]

DragniRake, on 12 February 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

earlier a poll was brought up: Kuru Qan vs Tayschrenn. The fact that the Ceda is good enough to be lumped together with Tayschrenn is astounding. Its been said countless times that Tayschrenn is the most powerful mage in Wu, in terms of sheer power. And we all saw what Kuru Qan can do when he prepares a ritual like he did when the Edur invaded Letheras. I think that, if anybody could have been able to outright obliterate Rhulad, the Ceda would have been one of the best choices.

i could be wrong, but i feel Taychrenn and Kuru Qan, although at the top of the tree power wise, are radically different to each other in the application of that power.

Kuru Qan given the time, could fashion up a ritual that would blow Tayschren's socks off.

But Tay is a sorcerer supreme who needs no time at all to set Qan's pants alight.

[Aptorian]

It's also important to note that what we were seeing Kuru Quan unleashed was not his power directly but rather a channelling of the Empty Hold. He was basically standing on a power node, a ritual fashioned like a gate into the hold, allowing him to unleash a tidal wave of power with out the power tearing him apart. Now granted, as we've seen, a mages raw power is directly proportional to the amount of punishment his body can take as the power runs through him, so I guess it could be said that the Ceda had quite resource of strength but it is still important to note that what he did was a channelling and not an unveiling of his own magical resources a la what we see Tay for example do in MoI.

[HiddenOne]

@Apt - So you feel that Warren magic does not involve the "channelling" (word tainted by WoT) of forces?

[Aptorian]

I guess you could say that all warren users channel the power they use. How ever there is a difference in the way they go about it. My meaning of the word is this.

Normally when you see a mage use magic they tap into their warren and they use it to get an effect. This is normally something quick and subtle, people who aren't sensitive will never even know you were using magic. It's a manipulation of power.

What the Ceda was doing in MT was the equivalent of opening up a floodgate. Raw power was spewing forth, out of the Empty Hold, through him, against the Warlock King. He was channelling the force and directing it at the Edur. He wasn't so much using his own strength as he was guiding the strength of the Empty Holds warren.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Aptorius, on 13 February 2012 - 10:11 PM, said:

I guess you could say that all warren users channel the power they use. How ever there is a difference in the way they go about it. My meaning of the word is this.

Normally when you see a mage use magic they tap into their warren and they use it to get an effect. This is normally something quick and subtle, people who aren't sensitive will never even know you were using magic. It's a manipulation of power.

What the Ceda was doing in MT was the equivalent of opening up a floodgate. Raw power was spewing forth, out of the Empty Hold, through him, against the Warlock King. He was channelling the force and directing it at the Edur. He wasn't so much using his own strength as he was guiding the strength of the Empty Holds warren.

like putting your thumb over the end of a hose to get more pressure!

[DragniRake]

Wily Tuchuk, on 13 February 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

DragniRake, on 12 February 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

earlier a poll was brought up: Kuru Qan vs Tayschrenn. The fact that the Ceda is good enough to be lumped together with Tayschrenn is astounding. Its been said countless times that Tayschrenn is the most powerful mage in Wu, in terms of sheer power. And we all saw what Kuru Qan can do when he prepares a ritual like he did when the Edur invaded Letheras. I think that, if anybody could have been able to outright obliterate Rhulad, the Ceda would have been one of the best choices.

i could be wrong, but i feel Taychrenn and Kuru Qan, although at the top of the tree power wise, are radically different to each other in the application of that power.

Kuru Qan given the time, could fashion up a ritual that would blow Tayschren's socks off.

But Tay is a sorcerer supreme who needs no time at all to set Qan's pants alight.

Very true. I don't think Tay has an equal now that Kellanved is no longer amongst the mortal realm. Even then, Kellanved wasn't his match in raw power. He was like Quick Ben a thousand times over: just stupidly smart. However, the fact that it can even be suggested that Kuru Qan can match Tayschrenn (though patently false) says something about his abilities. He was no doubt the most powerful sorcerer on the continent.
And actually, i suppose its been said that Cowl is almost a match for Tayschrenn. But still. My point stands.

This post has been edited by DragniRake: 14 February 2012 - 04:06 AM

[Mason of Death]

To answer the OP's question (trying not to spoil too much), the reason why Kuru Qan didn't take some basic precaution like having guards, was because he, through the tiles, had seen the coming conflict, and he also apparently saw that he could do nothing about it. He WAS going to die. I don't know if he even thought he could kill Hannan Mosag or Rhulad. But he did trap the sea god, thereby removing a major asset that could have been used to further mess up other people's day (read: Quick and the Bonehunters).

[worry]

That's still got big spoilers, especially since MT comes before any events in the Bonehunters. You should probably edit that down, especially the parenthetical.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 14 February 2012 - 03:30 AM

[Cedz]

Mason of Death, on 14 February 2012 - 03:04 AM, said:

To answer the OP's question (trying not to spoil too much), the reason why Kuru Qan didn't take some basic precaution like having guards, was because he, through the tiles, had seen the coming conflict, and he also apparently saw that he could do nothing about it. He WAS going to die. I don't know if he even thought he could kill Hannan Mosag or Rhulad. But he did trap the sea god, thereby removing a major asset that could have been used to further mess up other people's day (read: Quick and the Bonehunters).

I don't know if he saw anything as definitive as that. More likely he saw the probabilities of different outcomes that might come about and hedged his bets. He may have even seen that this course of action would succeed but was unaware of the unknown quantity that was Trull and his decision to throw his spear from within shadow. Before that moment the Ceda was winning in the conflagration with the Warlock King. I'm pretty sure it was stated in the book as well that if the Empty Hold's power got past the Warlock King then it would spread outwards into the city and annihilate all of the Tiste Edur within the city's bounds.

But yeah not alerting at least Bry's to his plan so that a squad of guards could have been kept in reserve for that moment was maybe not the greatest decision.

[lastname]

Apologies for the thread necro. Finished MT yesterday (thoroughly enjoyed it too) and simply had to chime in.

Have to agree with the OP. To quote Gerrun Eberict, The Ceda was ten heartbeats from being knifed and all because he hadn't bothered telling anyone about his plan. That'd have been ... stupid. Maybe that's par for the Ceda's character with his vague absent-minded-professor air. Dunno.

[worry]

I dunno, sometimes not telling people about the plan is part of the plan. As a scientist, he's probably got his own version of the observer effect in mind.

[wullagaru]

DragniRake, on 14 February 2012 - 01:00 AM, said:

Wily Tuchuk, on 13 February 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

DragniRake, on 12 February 2012 - 09:21 PM, said:

earlier a poll was brought up: Kuru Qan vs Tayschrenn. The fact that the Ceda is good enough to be lumped together with Tayschrenn is astounding. Its been said countless times that Tayschrenn is the most powerful mage in Wu, in terms of sheer power. And we all saw what Kuru Qan can do when he prepares a ritual like he did when the Edur invaded Letheras. I think that, if anybody could have been able to outright obliterate Rhulad, the Ceda would have been one of the best choices.

i could be wrong, but i feel Taychrenn and Kuru Qan, although at the top of the tree power wise, are radically different to each other in the application of that power.

Kuru Qan given the time, could fashion up a ritual that would blow Tayschren's socks off.

But Tay is a sorcerer supreme who needs no time at all to set Qan's pants alight.

Very true. I don't think Tay has an equal now that Kellanved is no longer amongst the mortal realm. Even then, Kellanved wasn't his match in raw power. He was like Quick Ben a thousand times over: just stupidly smart. However, the fact that it can even be suggested that Kuru Qan can match Tayschrenn (though patently false) says something about his abilities. He was no doubt the most powerful sorcerer on the continent.
And actually, i suppose its been said that Cowl is almost a match for Tayschrenn. But still. My point stands.

I think the one thing that really differentiates Kuru Qan from Tays is that he works with holds not warrens. the holds were a more primitive rougher form of magic that seemed to revolve around rituals (never saw a spontaneous spell cast in all of MT besides Corlo) so its not entirely fair to say if he is more powerful or not as they use different types of magic. Who's to say that Ceda couldn't kill it with the warrens?