[Osseric]

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Nowhere near as much risk as you make out. Think about it. Say he pronounced someone who was actually a shield as town - who would argue against it? Not the shield - they'll be enjoying everyone thinking they're inno. Not me - because why would I out one of my shields? There's far less chance of them being lynched as he's made them PI, so there's little risk in the lie being exposed through a lynch. And their CF won't be revealed through an NK, because why would I kill one of my own shields?

re: underlined part.

Maybe not, BUT they would sure as hell want to be on the sure fire lynch train of someone they can gaurantee isn't a fellow shield. Hence my vote for Tennes. Barghast came back as inno. I know I am inno, Hence my stand that either Tennes is inno and wouldn't be on the train, OR he is cult/shield and going after a safe lynch.

[Hood's Path]

Osseric I think Ruse would say anything to stay alive, for as long as he is alive Fener cannot be lynched. I think he is a shield myself.

[Hood's Path]

Khell would throw his own teammate under a bus if he thinks he's been recruited

[Osseric]

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I have already stated why I am against Ruse - I don't think cult should be in the game, and I don't want cult in the game. I would rather get rid of them as soon as possible so we can get back to town vs. me without any random interference, and a possible win by a team that none of us saw coming.

Frankly, Osseric, I have to ask - been recruited, have you?

I still can't believe you expect us to buy this... you only need town dead to win. Everytime the cult recruits, you become colser to your VC, every lynch that isn't a shield gets rid of town or recruit, every NK is town or recruit. You are sitting in the cat birds seat and you want us to sit here and believe that you are doing this just for the sake of a good game? psssshhh. NK Ruse if you are that afraid of him. You have that power and I am sure he doesn't have unlimited BP's.

[Osseric]

Hood, on 10 February 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Khell would throw his own teammate under a bus if he thinks he's been recruited

How Would Fener have any idea if his shield has been recruited? I think there is 0 chance that Ruse is a shield.


Fuck it.

I am done defending Ruse. He got himself into this mess, and it's going to cost town. If he does end up being the recruiter, well, I am toasty toast as no will believe that I haven't been recruited. But I am pretty fricking sure he is town.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 4. 11 hours 56 minutes remaining
9 Players still alive: fener, hood's path, kalse, korbas, osseric, rashan, ruse, sorrit, tennes

3 votes ruse ( fener, sorrit, tennes )
1 vote tennes ( osseric )

5 votes to lynch, 5 votes to go to night.

Players not voted: hood's path, kalse, korbas, rashan, ruse


Scum's victory conditions: Remove the town's people

[Fener]

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I have already stated why I am against Ruse - I don't think cult should be in the game, and I don't want cult in the game. I would rather get rid of them as soon as possible so we can get back to town vs. me without any random interference, and a possible win by a team that none of us saw coming.

Frankly, Osseric, I have to ask - been recruited, have you?

I still can't believe you expect us to buy this... you only need town dead to win. Everytime the cult recruits, you become colser to your VC, every lynch that isn't a shield gets rid of town or recruit, every NK is town or recruit. You are sitting in the cat birds seat and you want us to sit here and believe that you are doing this just for the sake of a good game? psssshhh. NK Ruse if you are that afraid of him. You have that power and I am sure he doesn't have unlimited BP's.

You're mixing in two different arguments there.

Yes, I would rather go after cult (or at least the cult leader) even if it's not in my victory conditions. It's an unknown which has equal chance of fucking us both over. And I can just imagine a scenario where I think I'm about to win only for the cult to pronounce they have all my shields and it's bye-bye Fener. Like I said before, if town win then it's game well played, if cult win that way, then that would just piss me right off.

And it's not about fearing Ruse, as I've also said before (and so have you) he, at least in theory, is more town's problem than it is mine, as I don't have anything in my VC about the cult. And as you can see, I have already tried to NK Ruse, *despite* thinking both a) that he's cult leader and not town, and b ) expecting it not to work.

As I said before, if I'm unlynchable in this game (at least at first), then I don't see why there might not be a role which can't be NKed (at least at first). I, however, am not going to spend all my time trying to NK Ruse - as you've pointed out, it's not in my objectives anyway. No, cult has to be lynched, and the longer you leave it, the more powerful they get.

And if he lives, ultimately only Ruse wins. Which is the very last thing I'd want.

[Rashan]

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Nowhere near as much risk as you make out. Think about it. Say he pronounced someone who was actually a shield as town - who would argue against it? Not the shield - they'll be enjoying everyone thinking they're inno. Not me - because why would I out one of my shields? There's far less chance of them being lynched as he's made them PI, so there's little risk in the lie being exposed through a lynch. And their CF won't be revealed through an NK, because why would I kill one of my own shields?

re: underlined part.

Maybe not, BUT they would sure as hell want to be on the sure fire lynch train of someone they can gaurantee isn't a fellow shield. Hence my vote for Tennes. Barghast came back as inno. I know I am inno, Hence my stand that either Tennes is inno and wouldn't be on the train, OR he is cult/shield and going after a safe lynch.

Tennes has been PI'd by Ruse, so if he were a shield I'd expect him not to be going after Ruse as that seems like Ruse is another shield protecting his buddy by claiming he's inno.

If Tennes is cult leader, he'd also be enjoying being PI'd by Ruse and wouldn't want to ruin that credibility by going after the guy who PI'd him and invalidating it.

[Osseric]

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I have already stated why I am against Ruse - I don't think cult should be in the game, and I don't want cult in the game. I would rather get rid of them as soon as possible so we can get back to town vs. me without any random interference, and a possible win by a team that none of us saw coming.

Frankly, Osseric, I have to ask - been recruited, have you?

I still can't believe you expect us to buy this... you only need town dead to win. Everytime the cult recruits, you become colser to your VC, every lynch that isn't a shield gets rid of town or recruit, every NK is town or recruit. You are sitting in the cat birds seat and you want us to sit here and believe that you are doing this just for the sake of a good game? psssshhh. NK Ruse if you are that afraid of him. You have that power and I am sure he doesn't have unlimited BP's.

You're mixing in two different arguments there.

Yes, I would rather go after cult (or at least the cult leader) even if it's not in my victory conditions. It's an unknown which has equal chance of fucking us both over. And I can just imagine a scenario where I think I'm about to win only for the cult to pronounce they have all my shields and it's bye-bye Fener. Like I said before, if town win then it's game well played, if cult win that way, then that would just piss me right off.

And it's not about fearing Ruse, as I've also said before (and so have you) he, at least in theory, is more town's problem than it is mine, as I don't have anything in my VC about the cult. And as you can see, I have already tried to NK Ruse, *despite* thinking both a) that he's cult leader and not town, and b ) expecting it not to work.

As I said before, if I'm unlynchable in this game (at least at first), then I don't see why there might not be a role which can't be NKed (at least at first). I, however, am not going to spend all my time trying to NK Ruse - as you've pointed out, it's not in my objectives anyway. No, cult has to be lynched, and the longer you leave it, the more powerful they get.

And if he lives, ultimately only Ruse wins. Which is the very last thing I'd want.

I see what you are saying. But you are acting in your own best interests with no thoughts of what is or isn't good for town. You don't know that Ruse is the recruiter. For all you know he is what he says he is. Either way, good for Fener.

What's good for you isn't necessarily good for us. No matter how you sugar coat it and try to make it look that way.

[Fener]

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I have already stated why I am against Ruse - I don't think cult should be in the game, and I don't want cult in the game. I would rather get rid of them as soon as possible so we can get back to town vs. me without any random interference, and a possible win by a team that none of us saw coming.

Frankly, Osseric, I have to ask - been recruited, have you?

I still can't believe you expect us to buy this... you only need town dead to win. Everytime the cult recruits, you become colser to your VC, every lynch that isn't a shield gets rid of town or recruit, every NK is town or recruit. You are sitting in the cat birds seat and you want us to sit here and believe that you are doing this just for the sake of a good game? psssshhh. NK Ruse if you are that afraid of him. You have that power and I am sure he doesn't have unlimited BP's.

You're mixing in two different arguments there.

Yes, I would rather go after cult (or at least the cult leader) even if it's not in my victory conditions. It's an unknown which has equal chance of fucking us both over. And I can just imagine a scenario where I think I'm about to win only for the cult to pronounce they have all my shields and it's bye-bye Fener. Like I said before, if town win then it's game well played, if cult win that way, then that would just piss me right off.

And it's not about fearing Ruse, as I've also said before (and so have you) he, at least in theory, is more town's problem than it is mine, as I don't have anything in my VC about the cult. And as you can see, I have already tried to NK Ruse, *despite* thinking both a) that he's cult leader and not town, and b ) expecting it not to work.

As I said before, if I'm unlynchable in this game (at least at first), then I don't see why there might not be a role which can't be NKed (at least at first). I, however, am not going to spend all my time trying to NK Ruse - as you've pointed out, it's not in my objectives anyway. No, cult has to be lynched, and the longer you leave it, the more powerful they get.

And if he lives, ultimately only Ruse wins. Which is the very last thing I'd want.

I see what you are saying. But you are acting in your own best interests with no thoughts of what is or isn't good for town. You don't know that Ruse is the recruiter. For all you know he is what he says he is. Either way, good for Fener.

What's good for you isn't necessarily good for us. No matter how you sugar coat it and try to make it look that way.

You're right in that there's added risk for you guys which doesn't exist for me - that Ruse is not cult and is in fact whatever the fuck it is that he claims to be (uber-finder/converter/recruiter/road warrior). I am certain that he is cult, however, whether you believe me or not. And as I said before, whatever happens, if Ruse is lynched, I'll withhold my NK tonight as thanks (again, don't expect you to trust me blah blah).

[Hood's Path]

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I have already stated why I am against Ruse - I don't think cult should be in the game, and I don't want cult in the game. I would rather get rid of them as soon as possible so we can get back to town vs. me without any random interference, and a possible win by a team that none of us saw coming.

Frankly, Osseric, I have to ask - been recruited, have you?

I still can't believe you expect us to buy this... you only need town dead to win. Everytime the cult recruits, you become colser to your VC, every lynch that isn't a shield gets rid of town or recruit, every NK is town or recruit. You are sitting in the cat birds seat and you want us to sit here and believe that you are doing this just for the sake of a good game? psssshhh. NK Ruse if you are that afraid of him. You have that power and I am sure he doesn't have unlimited BP's.

You're mixing in two different arguments there.

Yes, I would rather go after cult (or at least the cult leader) even if it's not in my victory conditions. It's an unknown which has equal chance of fucking us both over. And I can just imagine a scenario where I think I'm about to win only for the cult to pronounce they have all my shields and it's bye-bye Fener. Like I said before, if town win then it's game well played, if cult win that way, then that would just piss me right off.

And it's not about fearing Ruse, as I've also said before (and so have you) he, at least in theory, is more town's problem than it is mine, as I don't have anything in my VC about the cult. And as you can see, I have already tried to NK Ruse, *despite* thinking both a) that he's cult leader and not town, and b ) expecting it not to work.

As I said before, if I'm unlynchable in this game (at least at first), then I don't see why there might not be a role which can't be NKed (at least at first). I, however, am not going to spend all my time trying to NK Ruse - as you've pointed out, it's not in my objectives anyway. No, cult has to be lynched, and the longer you leave it, the more powerful they get.

And if he lives, ultimately only Ruse wins. Which is the very last thing I'd want.

I see what you are saying. But you are acting in your own best interests with no thoughts of what is or isn't good for town. You don't know that Ruse is the recruiter. For all you know he is what he says he is. Either way, good for Fener.

What's good for you isn't necessarily good for us. No matter how you sugar coat it and try to make it look that way.

This is exactly what I think he wants you to believe though.

[Osseric]

Rashan, on 10 February 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 06:44 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

Nowhere near as much risk as you make out. Think about it. Say he pronounced someone who was actually a shield as town - who would argue against it? Not the shield - they'll be enjoying everyone thinking they're inno. Not me - because why would I out one of my shields? There's far less chance of them being lynched as he's made them PI, so there's little risk in the lie being exposed through a lynch. And their CF won't be revealed through an NK, because why would I kill one of my own shields?

re: underlined part.

Maybe not, BUT they would sure as hell want to be on the sure fire lynch train of someone they can gaurantee isn't a fellow shield. Hence my vote for Tennes. Barghast came back as inno. I know I am inno, Hence my stand that either Tennes is inno and wouldn't be on the train, OR he is cult/shield and going after a safe lynch.

Tennes has been PI'd by Ruse, so if he were a shield I'd expect him not to be going after Ruse as that seems like Ruse is another shield protecting his buddy by claiming he's inno.

If Tennes is cult leader, he'd also be enjoying being PI'd by Ruse and wouldn't want to ruin that credibility by going after the guy who PI'd him and invalidating it.

Ruse isn't a shield. You guys are dense if you think he is.

To your second point. Ruse cacnnot PI anyone in terms of being cult. As far as we all are concerned, anyone including me and Tennes could be cult. Don't get this mixed up. Fener is the only person that we are sure cannot be cult.

[Osseric]

Hood, on 10 February 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:58 PM, said:

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 06:49 PM, said:

Fener, on 10 February 2012 - 06:35 PM, said:

I have already stated why I am against Ruse - I don't think cult should be in the game, and I don't want cult in the game. I would rather get rid of them as soon as possible so we can get back to town vs. me without any random interference, and a possible win by a team that none of us saw coming.

Frankly, Osseric, I have to ask - been recruited, have you?

I still can't believe you expect us to buy this... you only need town dead to win. Everytime the cult recruits, you become colser to your VC, every lynch that isn't a shield gets rid of town or recruit, every NK is town or recruit. You are sitting in the cat birds seat and you want us to sit here and believe that you are doing this just for the sake of a good game? psssshhh. NK Ruse if you are that afraid of him. You have that power and I am sure he doesn't have unlimited BP's.

You're mixing in two different arguments there.

Yes, I would rather go after cult (or at least the cult leader) even if it's not in my victory conditions. It's an unknown which has equal chance of fucking us both over. And I can just imagine a scenario where I think I'm about to win only for the cult to pronounce they have all my shields and it's bye-bye Fener. Like I said before, if town win then it's game well played, if cult win that way, then that would just piss me right off.

And it's not about fearing Ruse, as I've also said before (and so have you) he, at least in theory, is more town's problem than it is mine, as I don't have anything in my VC about the cult. And as you can see, I have already tried to NK Ruse, *despite* thinking both a) that he's cult leader and not town, and b ) expecting it not to work.

As I said before, if I'm unlynchable in this game (at least at first), then I don't see why there might not be a role which can't be NKed (at least at first). I, however, am not going to spend all my time trying to NK Ruse - as you've pointed out, it's not in my objectives anyway. No, cult has to be lynched, and the longer you leave it, the more powerful they get.

And if he lives, ultimately only Ruse wins. Which is the very last thing I'd want.

I see what you are saying. But you are acting in your own best interests with no thoughts of what is or isn't good for town. You don't know that Ruse is the recruiter. For all you know he is what he says he is. Either way, good for Fener.

What's good for you isn't necessarily good for us. No matter how you sugar coat it and try to make it look that way.

This is exactly what I think he wants you to believe though.

He wants us to believe he is acting in his own best interests? Duh? I don't understand your point. All I told Fener is thats whats good for the goose isn't necessarily good for the gander.

[Fener]

I have to run off again. I'll try and come back on later but it's not guaranteed.

[Kalse]

Ruse should be getting back soon...

[Rashan]

Kalse, on 10 February 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Ruse should be getting back soon...

He's avoiding us! Faceless man!!!

[Tennes]

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

I guess, i'm just expressing my opinion that Ruse isn't anything other than what he says he is, thus, no vote from me. If he was the cult leader, there is no way he would come out, say Tennes is town, I am town, and Barghast is town. There is too much risk for a leader to do that. He can recruit both Shields and Town as has been shown. If he messed up just one time, he would be toast. He has given us 3 Town names. Has anyone disputed this? We even got a CF on one that said he was telling the truth. You think a leader sticks his neck out like that? Just gambles that he might be right? I don't see it.

Who would call him out? Shields? No. They're far too happy to be PIed.
Townies? Na-ah, cause he says they are townies.
Fellow Cult? Nope, they are on his side.

So, that leaves the odd CF to expose him. Barghast never got any heat but died. I have been attacking Ruse all game long, seems fairly certain I am not recruited and won't be because there is no way I can gracefully back down from trying to get him lynched, which is what you need in a recruit. Therefore, I will always CF town and will thus always support his theory. It would be a 180. So he calls me town and unless I am a shield and lynched/ NKed and it comes out that way that he lied, all's fine and dandy. Ruse has a brain, and when he isn't panicked and flustered and lying through his teeth, he knows how to use it.

Quote

Thats why it's baffling to me that Tennes is on the Train, (Unless Tennes is shield). He would know, like I do, that Ruse is telling the truth. How do you vote that person off?

So because he got something right on me, he is what he says he is? You are nowhere near suspicious enough. Let's examine the chance of him being right even if he doesn't know for sure (aka, is a liar):

1. he knows himself and his own recruits,
2. he knows Fener is scum,
3. and he otherwise has a chance of, what, 75% to not name a shield?

That's decent odds. Furthermore, because of recruitment being recruitment and it changing the alignment of a player, the PIed person has to die the night after Ruse named him inno, or in that lynch - otherwise he can say "probably recruited after I did my magical thing that cannot be named that proved them town".
Secondly, notice how despite being Cult the blacksmith was still named town and Mott was still named a Shield. Ruse can always weasel out by saying: "my ability doesn't spot cultists! See, Mott was still a shield!! I can only find (ehm, not find, he's not a finder) super-magically-awesome-not-find-find scum!!"

So plenty of weaseling room for him even if he has it wrong.

As a result, what Ruse says proves literally nothing. Are you going to come out and expose him if you were scum? Probably not.

Quote

At this point, for all I know the cult might be dead. we are ASSUMING that the cult started with 2 people. Personally, I think that would be a huge disadvantage, balance wise, to town. But If there was still a cult leader around, i'd probably say, Korbas, Rashan or Sorrit. ( who could also be shields), which is why I think either of them are a better choice for a lynch that Ruse. Who could only be cult. There is no way Ruse is Shield.

I know he is speaking the truth about my alignment, but let's examine the VCs: he doesn't even have to recuit everyone and we have to lynch the cult leader to win.
So, for example, he could call me town, then leave me alive and unrecruited, and win, despite me railing against him - as soon as he has majority, he won't give a fuck, I can't get him lynched and town loses. In fact, he has a lot to win by leaving townies around as they block Fener's VC.

[Tennes]

Osseric, on 10 February 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

You know, it really makes no sense that Tennes would be on the train if he was inno. I feel like he would be fighting as hard as me to keep Ruse from being lynched. Unless, Ruse called him town, and he was in fact cult. It also might be a reason why Tennes has been able to be so gung ho about going after Ruse. He knows he isn't a recruit, and that based on Fener's play he isn't a shield. Thus he's an unrecruitable power role and Tennes needs him lynched/Nk'd to fufill the VC for cult. That makes sense in my head.

remove vote

vote Tennes.

Otherwise, I can't explain how Tennes would be on a Ruse train.

See my reasoning. Being town and being PIed by Ruse can both happen and yet, Ruse still has to die. The cult leader is very aware of who is with him and who is not. He can recruit shields, so even that does not stop him. There is a very small window to be proven wrong without having at the least some weaseling room. You're rather naive in not seeing that.

[Ruse]

Going to respond to a lot of things, grab lunch, then come back and respond to the responses.

Hood, on 10 February 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

By the way, Ruse you lied. Only scum are meant to lie. You ask what lie? Well I asked PS if we can reveal and he said we can reveal what we like. I wonder were you got the idea that you are not allowed to reveal. I think I speak for the rest of us when I say that you should reveal fully.

You asked PS if "we" can reveal? Who is "we"? I would assume reveals for other roles are fine, but he specifically forbid me from revealing my role, AND he forbid me from revealing as finder.

This makes me lose faith in you as a good guy, because unless you horribly misconstrued what PS said, you're just setting me up here. What did you ask/hear in return, exactly?

Tennes, on 10 February 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

Ruse, on 10 February 2012 - 04:06 AM, said:

I apologize, sincerely.

You still owe us a case from day 2.

Quote

I had flash backs to a previous game where a healer revealed prematurely. So if we had a finder, I didn't want him to out himself.On night 1 I thought I was guarded. Throughout the following day, I began to doubt it because of everyone disagreeing with me, and since then I've been working with the assumption that I wasn't guarded. My action is about as useless as a find. It all depends on the educated guesses of the user. I've been unfortunate so far. I'm extremely tired. See you all tomorrow.

You now think again that you were guarded? if you were guarded and it was a scum guard, why did they even switch to other players to allow you more night actions? Either your hypothesis is wrong or, and if it isn't wrong, then you're not thinking things through. Moreover, as cult leader, how hard is it to target people you DON"T want to recruit on thread here? Not hard at all. My stance regarding you has been such that if youdid recruit me, I'd be doing a visible 180 degrees turn on thread for everyone to spot. I'm thus very safe to name.

And are you really acting on the premises that you were guarded night 1 and weren't, since then? Tsk tsk.

Vote Ruse


What surprises me, is the lack of the second NK, which so far, no-one has mentioned.

If I were a cult leader, I would recruit you in a second because you've been after me all game. Just for the shits and giggles. Sorry buddy. I tried my NA on you because you had been so adamantly against me. I thought I would find something, but nope.

I believed I was guarded night 1, but practically everyone playing has convinced me otherwise. There's still a nagging in the back of my mind saying I may be guarded, but I've put it aside because everyone disagrees.

I mentioned the lack of second NK, actually. It's clear you read my posts

Sorrit, on 10 February 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

Ruse, on 10 February 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

My action is about as useless as a find. It all depends on the educated guesses of the user. I've been unfortunate so far.

That's precious coming from the self-proclaimed "most important town role in the universe"

Reading comprehension failure. I stated that my action was as useless as a find. Guess what's not useless? A find. I just haven't hit any targets, just as finders sometimes hit no targets.

Korbas, on 10 February 2012 - 10:24 AM, said:

So, here I am in my timezone all by my lonesomes on the thread. My opinion is that a Ruse lynch at this juncture is good, because the CF will at least give us a clue as to whether his information has been good or not.

Plus, it is sooooo tempting to hammer just because I always miss the action due to my timezone.

Except I don't think PS is around either.

Anyways, there are some people who haven't really been on yet today, so I'll wait.

I don't expect that our healer will continue healing me, seeing as almost everyone wants me dead. You'll see my CF in the morning after I am killed.

Hood, on 10 February 2012 - 10:31 AM, said:

Korbas, on 10 February 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Well, what I mean is, Osseric and Rashan (and Ruse for that matter) haven't really been on since the train has formed. With this much time left, it doesn't hurt to wait. Plus, if I hammer now the next day's timeout will be while I'm in bed.*




*Is selfish about wanting to be involved.

I want to hear Ruse' full reveal please. May stop the lynch but even if it doesn't at least it'll help clear things up.

I can't reveal... please reply to the question further up this post about what you asked PS.

[Hood's Path]

vote ruse