[Lady Bliss]

SPOILERS A PLENTY!!!!





I feel like I'm obviously missing something. I loved the first several hundred pages of the book, but feel a bit confused on the ending. This could be because both the baby and I were sick, so its entirely possible that I missed a section or just need to reread the last couple hundred pages. Anyways, help me out a little...

1) What did Humble and Barathol make? I got all the sneakiness of their rendezvous, and then Barathol returning home, but nothing on what they actually did. I have been assuming it was the crossbow bolts.

2) How did the bolts end up in Scorch and Leff's crossbow? I'm assuming Kruppe magicked them there...

3) What did Spindle and Fisher accomplish with the white rock? I got lots of drama around finding the acid and digging to utilize it, then Brood comes along and breaks it? What did that really do for anybody?

4) What happened to the Legate? He was shot with tons of bolts and wasn't dieing, then all of a sudden he was dead and gone?

[tiam]

BlissFulnite, on 01 February 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

SPOILERS A PLENTY!!!!





I feel like I'm obviously missing something. I loved the first several hundred pages of the book, but feel a bit confused on the ending. This could be because both the baby and I were sick, so its entirely possible that I missed a section or just need to reread the last couple hundred pages. Anyways, help me out a little...

1) What did Humble and Barathol make? I got all the sneakiness of their rendezvous, and then Barathol returning home, but nothing on what they actually did. I have been assuming it was the crossbow bolts.

2) How did the bolts end up in Scorch and Leff's crossbow? I'm assuming Kruppe magicked them there...

3) What did Spindle and Fisher accomplish with the white rock? I got lots of drama around finding the acid and digging to utilize it, then Brood comes along and breaks it? What did that really do for anybody?

4) What happened to the Legate? He was shot with tons of bolts and wasn't dieing, then all of a sudden he was dead and gone?

Youve pretty much answered your own questions. Measure and Barathol used the shards of Dragnipur to forge bolts, Kruppe put them with Scorch and Leff and that weakened the Tyrant, in some way im not entirely clear about that myself.

Spindle and the BB plotline to acid the alabaster was completely nullified by Brood fannying around for half a book then getting involved near the end.

[Lady Bliss]

Well its nice to know i'm right, but did the book actually SAY they created the bolts and Kruppe gave them to Scorch and Leff or do we just assume that?

Also, what was the whole point behind the white rock? So it is smashed...

Why was the beast or automaton or whatever released?

[champ]

BlissFulnite, on 01 February 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Well its nice to know i'm right, but did the book actually SAY they created the bolts and Kruppe gave them to Scorch and Leff or do we just assume that?

Also, what was the whole point behind the white rock? So it is smashed...

Why was the beast or automaton or whatever released?

We just have to assume as ICE, the whole show and not tell!

The white rock was never fully explained, only that it created a kick ass shield once it was a complete circle!

The beast/automation was released to first, kick the BB out of K'ruls bar and then open the mystery tomb at the bottom - no doubt leading to a load of big, bad trouble! Again, not much information going at the moment...

[tiam]

champ, on 01 February 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

BlissFulnite, on 01 February 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Well its nice to know i'm right, but did the book actually SAY they created the bolts and Kruppe gave them to Scorch and Leff or do we just assume that?

Also, what was the whole point behind the white rock? So it is smashed...

Why was the beast or automaton or whatever released?

We just have to assume as ICE, the whole show and not tell!

The white rock was never fully explained, only that it created a kick ass shield once it was a complete circle!

The beast/automation was released to first, kick the BB out of K'ruls bar and then open the mystery tomb at the bottom - no doubt leading to a load of big, bad trouble! Again, not much information going at the moment...

Seen as Tay has probably ascended in some form or another by going into the Krulinator Id hazarrd a guess that the automaton, from Jacuruku originally, might be relevant to the ascendant cult that we see in ROTCG and may have been possibly designed to endure the trials and tribulations of whatever has stopped other people trying it. Tay himself says that no one has been strong enough to suceed at it.

[jammerculture]

Spindle weakened it for Brood. I was thinking when reading that te acid was going to just melt the alabaster but not the silver runes which were te actual source of the Orb magic. Brood was able to destroy the silver once the alabaster was gone.

I missed the crossbow bolts being reforged from Dragnipur. I was operating under the assumtion that they had reforged the sword for either Dassem or a reborn Anomander to use on the Tyrant, which never happened lol. The bolts make perfect sense.

I was quite impressed by ICE in his ability to bring all the plot lines together in one SE like convergence. I felt this time was a much cleaner one ten previous ICE books.

[tiam]

jammerculture, on 02 February 2012 - 04:33 AM, said:

Spindle weakened it for Brood. I was thinking when reading that te acid was going to just melt the alabaster but not the silver runes which were te actual source of the Orb magic. Brood was able to destroy the silver once the alabaster was gone.

I missed the crossbow bolts being reforged from Dragnipur. I was operating under the assumtion that they had reforged the sword for either Dassem or a reborn Anomander to use on the Tyrant, which never happened lol. The bolts make perfect sense.

I was quite impressed by ICE in his ability to bring all the plot lines together in one SE like convergence. I felt this time was a much cleaner one ten previous ICE books.

Thye acid didn weaken it. That was a joke. The efforts of Spindle and Fisher couldnt have worked then Brood turned up and destroys it. Spindle then claims 'we probably weakened it for him' in the same way a woman 'loosens a jar for a man' i.e. not at all.

[jammerculture]

You seem pretty sure of that

I must have missed the part where Brood says "The acid does nothing"

There is nothing in the book to deny anything I said. I got the joke about "you loosened it", however there is nothing to say that it also wasn't true.

It amazes me how people on this board are so certain about stuff in a series where everything is only half shown, and the other half is left to the reader to determine.

This post has been edited by jammerculture: 02 February 2012 - 02:20 PM

[tiam]

jammerculture, on 02 February 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

You seem pretty sure of that

I must have missed the part where Brood says "The acid does nothing"

There is nothing in the book to deny anything I said. I got the joke about "you loosened it", however there is nothing to say that it also wasn't true.

It amazes me how people on this board are so certain about stuff in a series where everything is only half shown, and the other half is left to the reader to determine.

It wasnt true.

Brood did not coincide his destruction with the BB attack deliberately and was confident he could break it. The BB efforts failed at damaging the device. Brood destroys it with ease. Thus the BB efforts were unnecessary.

If your amazed at people taking things to their logical conclusion then so be it. Things are left to the reader to determine but clearly the picture ICE was painting was one of Broods involvement being essential to undermining the 'Orb' itself.

[jammerculture]

If anyone can detect the enourmous fallacious assumption there you get a gold star

I'm not saying your not right, I'm contending that there really isn't enough infomation to determine one way or another. My original comments were directed towards people that were complaining that the BB storyline meant nothing because of Brood, however for all we know it required both actions to work. Since both parties were confident that they could destroy it, Brood's confidence really adds nothing to the discussion.

For me, what makes the most sense is that the acid damaged the alabaster enough that Brood could take out the silver runes. After all cussers failed to destroy it so brute strength wasn't gettin the job done. Mysterious mesages about the nature of the substance lead Spindle on hs path, I would thnk whoever sent the message (Kruppe?), did it for a reason, elsewise, he would have just said "Don't worry, Brood's coming"

[tiam]

jammerculture, on 03 February 2012 - 12:20 AM, said:

If anyone can detect the enourmous fallacious assumption there you get a gold star

I'm not saying your not right, I'm contending that there really isn't enough infomation to determine one way or another. My original comments were directed towards people that were complaining that the BB storyline meant nothing because of Brood, however for all we know it required both actions to work. Since both parties were confident that they could destroy it, Brood's confidence really adds nothing to the discussion.

For me, what makes the most sense is that the acid damaged the alabaster enough that Brood could take out the silver runes. After all cussers failed to destroy it so brute strength wasn't gettin the job done. Mysterious mesages about the nature of the substance lead Spindle on hs path, I would thnk whoever sent the message (Kruppe?), did it for a reason, elsewise, he would have just said "Don't worry, Brood's coming"

I think your wrong.

Broods confidence in his ability to destroy cities, mountains and destroy the fabric of the planet is different than Spindles efforts to sabotage a relic of, to him, ancient power, using munitions of which he has absolutely no idea what theyre made of. We see early in the book that Baruk notes that the Tyrant likely waited until Rake was dead before making this latest attempt. Brood himself says he misses the presence of Anomander, because his very presence was a deterrant. So from that we can see that Rake would have dealt with the Tyrant would he have arrived. Brood has always been on a similar power level to Rake. We have numerous instances throughout the series where people comment they dont know who was deadlier Rake or Brood. Thus Brood could have crushed D'stan from the very map itself and as such wouldnt have needed help from Moranth Munitions to break into some enchanted silver.

This post has been edited by tiam: 03 February 2012 - 10:15 AM

[Silk]

yes and no ..... he could have but that would have destroyed the whole place and he seems to have mellowed a bit.... there is also the pure co-incidence that the he ended up precisely where the BB's were doing their sabotaging when he could have gone to any part of the circle and destroyed it if there was no need for the BB story line.... so perhaps without the acid weakening the alabaster the only alternative was for Brood to take the whole city out ... so in a way they loosened Brood from the Hulk smash bash destroy all mode to more of a precision strike on one place......

[tiam]

Silk, on 03 February 2012 - 10:22 AM, said:

yes and no ..... he could have but that would have destroyed the whole place and he seems to have mellowed a bit.... there is also the pure co-incidence that the he ended up precisely where the BB's were doing their sabotaging when he could have gone to any part of the circle and destroyed it if there was no need for the BB story line.... so perhaps without the acid weakening the alabaster the only alternative was for Brood to take the whole city out ... so in a way they loosened Brood from the Hulk smash bash destroy all mode to more of a precision strike on one place......

How did he end up there at exactly the same moment? the BB did not damage the enchanted silver yes? So what your saying is that Brood would have struggled to get through a couple of feet at most of alabaster. The stone itself simply acted as a conduit for the silver. Brood could have easily have gotten through it.

All the BB did was damage the alabaster but not the actual silver that was causing the Orb to form. One of the main themes of this book is that many have forgotten that Brood is an anceint entity of exceptional power, arguably more powerful than Rake. There are many who see him as a great general but as Dujek points out in MOI its Brood who is the 'shaved knuckle'.

[Silk]

Tiam, I am not saying one way or the other, what I am saying is thtthe circle was huge and what a co-incidence that Brood ended up at the exact spot the BB's were when he could in theory have broken it from anywhere....

Its one of those circular type discussions imo such as what came first.... the chicken or the egg ...... I do not disagree that Brood is this uber powerfull being but in the books it also shows that the most powerfull of entities can be brought low/weekend by mere mortals and their tools......

As I said the point here is that its a big co-incidence that he ended up at the same spot as the BB's.....

[Illuyankas]

Yes, there is no possible way he could have seen the huge cloud of smoke billowing from the enchanted stone - that can only be damaged by the chemicals only the Bridgeburners had - dissolving from said chemicals. Also the BBs are not connected with ascendancy in any way and Brood is totally not a mage and obviously wouldn't have noticed them.

I'm happy with the Bridgeburners reducing Brood's contribution from 'smash entire city outside circle to pieces before gaining entry and smashing inside too, everyone dies' to 'break specific exposed link, minimum casualties'.

[tiam]

Silk, on 03 February 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Tiam, I am not saying one way or the other, what I am saying is thtthe circle was huge and what a co-incidence that Brood ended up at the exact spot the BB's were when he could in theory have broken it from anywhere....

Its one of those circular type discussions imo such as what came first.... the chicken or the egg ...... I do not disagree that Brood is this uber powerfull being but in the books it also shows that the most powerfull of entities can be brought low/weekend by mere mortals and their tools......

As I said the point here is that its a big co-incidence that he ended up at the same spot as the BB's.....

Yes it is a coicidence I suppose but as Illy has pointed out he could have seen it. Possible but more likely ICE wrote it like that to have interaction for a convergence which is fine.

I completely agree its a circular discussion but I wouldnt say it has anything to so with powerful entities being brought down by mortals. The simple fact of the matter is without Brood it wouldnt have worked. The acid/munitions was unsuccesful at breaking the enchanted silver then Brood turned up. Could he have done it without the BB? I honestly believe he could which makes his limited involvement more contrived IMO ofcourse.

Illy- Simply because the BB had the acid used does not mean Brood couldnt have done it himself. Calling 'he sensed them because their friends have ascended' is reading too much into it. ICE wanted Brood there and there was a good bit of humour in it (one the strongest parts of this book was the Malaz humour which ICE seems to enjoy writing). While I still think Brood nullified the BB plotline you may be right in that ICE was trying to portray a middle ground between Brood not getting involved and Brood smashing the city to bits. Like I said ill reread the scene.

If I appear snooty its because of Jammercultures comment on this and another thread

This post has been edited by tiam: 03 February 2012 - 12:41 PM

[Nineveh]

Was not Brood mentioned as being a high-denul or equivalently skilled healer in earlier books? (in regards to him being a mage that is)

[Ben Delat]

yes brood has beeen mentioned a cpl times as being able to use high-denul, which almost makes me wonder if there is a connection between that and Burn.

[tiam]

Nineveh, on 07 February 2012 - 09:09 PM, said:

Was not Brood mentioned as being a high-denul or equivalently skilled healer in earlier books? (in regards to him being a mage that is)

Ben Delat, on 08 February 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

yes brood has beeen mentioned a cpl times as being able to use high-denul, which almost makes me wonder if there is a connection between that and Burn.

Brood is a high mage of Tennes, similar to the way Rake is a high mage of KG. That is to say extremely powerful. He is also capable of high Denul, though as to the connection with Burn id say it has more to do with Shedenul who is rarely mentioned in the books.

[Tattersail_]

BlissFulnite, on 01 February 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

SPOILERS A PLENTY!!!!





I feel like I'm obviously missing something. I loved the first several hundred pages of the book, but feel a bit confused on the ending. This could be because both the baby and I were sick, so its entirely possible that I missed a section or just need to reread the last couple hundred pages. Anyways, help me out a little...

1) What did Humble and Barathol make? I got all the sneakiness of their rendezvous, and then Barathol returning home, but nothing on what they actually did. I have been assuming it was the crossbow bolts.

2) How did the bolts end up in Scorch and Leff's crossbow? I'm assuming Kruppe magicked them there...

3) What did Spindle and Fisher accomplish with the white rock? I got lots of drama around finding the acid and digging to utilize it, then Brood comes along and breaks it? What did that really do for anybody? It took down the orb

4) What happened to the Legate? He was shot with tons of bolts and wasn't dieing, then all of a sudden he was dead and gone? He wasn't dead his vessel was. He needed someone to take up the mask but no one wanted it, then Rallick put him in the azath. Could Raest take the tyrant into himself?