[Binko]

Mild Spoilers Below.

I enjoyed reading ORB very much, just as I've enjoyed all the books set in the Malazan world.

But this extended series desperately needs some new plot lines. Here's the standard Malazan plot in a nutshell; Big Evil arises in unforeseen location, powerful and interesting characters wind their way towards the Big Evil, everybody comes together in a swirl of contrivance and co-incidence guided by unseen hands, Big Evil defeated, powerful and interesting characters scatter, the end.

It's a good plot. But it's been done too much in the last few books. Let's mix it up a little and see things from a different perspective. Not every story has to be about a converging mob of our favorite characters saving the world from some huge nasty.

[Binko]

Binko, on 28 January 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

It's a good plot. But it's been done too much in the last few books. Let's mix it up a little and see things from a different perspective. Not every story has to be about a converging mob of our favorite characters saving the world from some huge nasty.

I guess 250 people who viewed this post are perfectly happy to have more Malazan books that feature a converging mob of their favorite characters smacking down some random big evil.

[Tapper]

Binko, on 31 January 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

Binko, on 28 January 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

It's a good plot. But it's been done too much in the last few books. Let's mix it up a little and see things from a different perspective. Not every story has to be about a converging mob of our favorite characters saving the world from some huge nasty.

I guess 250 people who viewed this post are perfectly happy to have more Malazan books that feature a converging mob of their favorite characters smacking down some random big evil.

Nah, I think there is some fair critique of the way things are handled in other threads (I still haven't read it, because the war between getting the hardcopy or the kindle version (that would be a first for me for Malazan) is still being waged in my head - I just read the spoilers to make up my mind) and how the Great Big Evil is in this case more puzzling than great and big.

I think it is slightly endemic of ICEs l novel, 1 story approach. SE provides much more of a backdrop, even if his chain of evil (spoilered for those who haven't finished MBOTF) with the overarching story, which I so far haven't really spotted in ICEs work.

Spoiler

Pannion Domin, the Letheri Empire, the Edur, the FA, the Tiste Liosan

[Harvester]

Speaking for myself, I simply couldn't find anything new to say, something I haven't already posted somewhere else (like Tapper said). But let me state my opinion again if you wish. I find ICE's plot structure incredibly lazy and often times simply terrible.

[Fist Gamet]

I do wonder if he could change it much even if he wanted to. For most readers of TMBoTF, there exists a great level of expectation in the kind of story we expect to read from SE or ICE. Whilst I agree that he could be a little more adventurous and risky with the plot and style, I maintain that if he were to do something far removed from what we've come to expect then most loyal fans would be outraged. I don't think it would work if either writer were to suddenly start writing different kinds of stories in the Malazan world. Some would enjoy the refreshing aspect but I think most of us would be dissappointed because those basic elements mentioned above are a huge part of the appeal and why many of us love the books.

[tiam]

Fist Gamet, on 31 January 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

I do wonder if he could change it much even if he wanted to. For most readers of TMBoTF, there exists a great level of expectation in the kind of story we expect to read from SE or ICE. Whilst I agree that he could be a little more adventurous and risky with the plot and style, I maintain that if he were to do something far removed from what we've come to expect then most loyal fans would be outraged. I don't think it would work if either writer were to suddenly start writing different kinds of stories in the Malazan world. Some would enjoy the refreshing aspect but I think most of us would be dissappointed because those basic elements mentioned above are a huge part of the appeal and why many of us love the books.

I dunno. While I agree that a few ICE naysayers would be outraged I think if ICE gave us a HOC style ending where there is a huge anti climax with (largely unexplained/unfore-shadowed) ghosts turning up it would have been ok. THis was anti climateic but not because he chose to do that but because it wasnt explained.

[Fist Gamet]

Could he, though? Perhaps I am entirely wrong about this but for me, ICE is writing more or less one-off books filling in gaps in and around SE's main story. I don't see the same contiuous epic story from ICE (what do the Crimson Guard have to do with OST?), and so he is more or less restricted to completing each story within each book. This, I believe, is not simply an aesthetic decision, but it is a literary necessity as well as the publisher's requirement, I would imagine. Yes, it's all supposition on my part but with good reason.

[tiam]

Fist Gamet, on 31 January 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Could he, though? Perhaps I am entirely wrong about this but for me, ICE is writing more or less one-off books filling in gaps in and around SE's main story. I don't see the same contiuous epic story from ICE (what do the Crimson Guard have to do with OST?), and so he is more or less restricted to completing each story within each book. This, I believe, is not simply an aesthetic decision, but it is a literary necessity as well as the publisher's requirement, I would imagine. Yes, it's all supposition on my part but with good reason.

I think we are crossed paths here.

I completely agree that he should write self contained novels, with some plot threads throughout (Kiska for example). The simple fact is that he isnt and this doesnt work as each one is set on a different continent. He hasnt got the space or time to fill in everything but he doesnt even answer enough about his self contained books IMO. Youd think it was a literary necessity but ,it seems atleast, not to be. ICE tells us very little and provides very little info on alot of aspects he introduces. This is his world building on Korel, fleshing out the Old Guard, the Tyrant plotline and yet we still have these giant, plot important gaps that arent filled. THe worst thing for me, and you hit upon it by saying its a literary necessity, is that he might never get around to answering these questions. We expect mystery but the main plot centred around the Tyrant told us nothing about the Tyrant, the SW plot told us nothing ,or very little, about Greymane and the Storm Riders, and unless these all cross paths on the Assail book Im unsure why he wouldnt tell us. The only reason I can think of is if hes trying to portray the typical malazan mystery but simply cant do it aswelll as SE so withholds the information all together.

WHat I actually meant by my post, and why I think weve got crossed wires, is if ICE didnt give a huge convergence with Moranth bombing runs and some magic orb etc etc there would be some who would use it as an excuse to claim ICE couldnt do a big Malazan style convergence. One of the things some of the non spoiler reviews said, and I think Hetans view of the book also stated, was that this book is better written and also proves ICE can do the the now typical Malaz convergence. What I was saying is that if ICE did a HOC style anti climax, with the Malazans marching, beating Shaik with only really the Adjunct raising a sword against her. It was a direct answer to the main arc of the thread.

As I say I agree with you

EDIT- For the record I really hope the Tyrant and the StormRiders have something to do with the mystery on Assail and hats why ICE is building up to the mother of all books set on Assail. However atm im fearing finishing the Assail book and being like 'He told us nothing. Im dead inside'

This post has been edited by tiam: 31 January 2012 - 11:52 PM

[Tapper]

Fist Gamet, on 31 January 2012 - 05:39 PM, said:

I do wonder if he could change it much even if he wanted to. For most readers of TMBoTF, there exists a great level of expectation in the kind of story we expect to read from SE or ICE. Whilst I agree that he could be a little more adventurous and risky with the plot and style, I maintain that if he were to do something far removed from what we've come to expect then most loyal fans would be outraged. I don't think it would work if either writer were to suddenly start writing different kinds of stories in the Malazan world. Some would enjoy the refreshing aspect but I think most of us would be dissappointed because those basic elements mentioned above are a huge part of the appeal and why many of us love the books.

Part of your answer is found in the reception of Crack'd Pot Trail. That wasn't too favourable and mostly because it apparently didn't feature enough B&KB.
Another answer may be the contract ICE has with the publisher: maybe he's forced into self-contained novels due to the amount of books he's contracted for.

The issue with ICE is that he is finishing loose threads left open by SE. If you read the Crimson Guard book without knowing anything about Dom, Mallick Rel and the old guard, you don't really realise the significance of the book. Korbolo Dom is just a shortsighted arrogant sod, instead of someone with a real nasty streak and his weird Whiskeyjack fetish. Mallick is just a powerplayer, instead of a traitor.
It is still a good read, but nowhere near as exciting as a new reader as you'll focus more on whatshisface with the wind sword and much less on the bigger story on the background, which is the important bit as it features so many people we 8 book veterans have heard about from SE.

Since ICE is filling up gaps, this means his books require a certain amount of basic knowledge from the reader, it also means he needs to give a few answers. Too many, and he'll leave nothing open to expand on himself, too few, and we as fans will clamor it is a bad book.

Anyhow, I still haven't read the book, so I'll reserve judgment for now - it is encouraging though that people say that his writing style is still improving, though.

[blackzoid]

tiam, on 31 January 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

I dunno. While I agree that a few ICE naysayers would be outraged I think if ICE gave us a HOC style ending where there is a huge anti climax with (largely unexplained/unfore-shadowed) ghosts turning up it would have been ok. THis was anti climateic but not because he chose to do that but because it wasnt explained.

Its another seperate thread but holy shit do I have a different opinion of HoC!

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 01 February 2012 - 10:44 AM

[tiam]

blackzoid, on 01 February 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

tiam, on 31 January 2012 - 05:55 PM, said:

I dunno. While I agree that a few ICE naysayers would be outraged I think if ICE gave us a HOC style ending where there is a huge anti climax with (largely unexplained/unfore-shadowed) ghosts turning up it would have been ok. THis was anti climateic but not because he chose to do that but because it wasnt explained.

Its another seperate thread but holy shit do I have a different opinion of HoC!

I exaggerated certain aspects to emphasise my point but you see where im coming from for HOC even if you dont agree with it.

[jammerculture]

Meh, that's kinda their thing.

It's all about the convergence, power drawing power etc.

Basically the underlying theme of the whole world.

Your basically asking for a malazan book to not be a malazan book. Like saying, i like dogs but enough with the wagging and stick chasing!

[amphibian]

Tapper, on 01 February 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Part of your answer is found in the reception of Crack'd Pot Trail. That wasn't too favourable and mostly because it apparently didn't feature enough B&KB.

I am so-so about Crack'd Pot Trail because it's essentially one long shaggy dog joke of a story. By itself, it doesn't stand so well. In conjunction with another story, it'd probably be a rather nice change of pace.

So I view it as needing to be within an omnibus with another B&KB story.

Quote

Anyhow, I still haven't read the book, so I'll reserve judgment for now - it is encouraging though that people say that his writing style is still improving, though.

What are you doing in this forum if you haven't read it? Get out of here and start reading.

[Fist Gamet]

Fair enough, Tiam, I think I understand you a little better now. I had a look back at our original to and fro and I remain unconvinced the HoC type ending would work or be allowed. For me, it only works so well in HoC because of TBH and the huge payback we get. In essence, without the HoC ending, we just don't get THB as it is. It seems unlikely that ICE will be returning to Dharujistan and I am not sure he is skilled enough to pull off a proper low-key ending that would satisfy the publishers (knowing he is not going back to it).7
I guess for all the reasons that you and Tapper already mentioned, ICE is working within fairly tight restraints about what he can write about and how he can do it. It is almost, for want of a better explanation (and no offence intended) like having to write fanfic and, as a writer, I would rail against restrictions imposed by another writer

NB - Yes, I know it is their joint project and no doubt neither man sees it the way I explained it, I was simply trying to illustrate the point that SE probably didn't have to write with ICE's previous work in mind, whereas ICE...well, you get the idea

[tiam]

Fist Gamet, on 04 February 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

Fair enough, Tiam, I think I understand you a little better now. I had a look back at our original to and fro and I remain unconvinced the HoC type ending would work or be allowed. For me, it only works so well in HoC because of TBH and the huge payback we get. In essence, without the HoC ending, we just don't get THB as it is. It seems unlikely that ICE will be returning to Dharujistan and I am not sure he is skilled enough to pull off a proper low-key ending that would satisfy the publishers (knowing he is not going back to it).7
I guess for all the reasons that you and Tapper already mentioned, ICE is working within fairly tight restraints about what he can write about and how he can do it. It is almost, for want of a better explanation (and no offence intended) like having to write fanfic and, as a writer, I would rail against restrictions imposed by another writer

NB - Yes, I know it is their joint project and no doubt neither man sees it the way I explained it, I was simply trying to illustrate the point that SE probably didn't have to write with ICE's previous work in mind, whereas ICE...well, you get the idea

Yes and thats whats crucial. Hes not coming back to it so has to give a bang for your buck style ending we expect. Alot of people rate HOC as the worst of the main arc because of the Karsa opening book or the ending. I always think its my least favorite when I reread but always enjoy it more than I do with RG or TBH. ICE is still leaving alot up in the air though with the Tyrant, SR, Stormwall etc not explained. If all these tie together in Assail then ill be so happy ill shit the bed as it proves ICE, while not maybe as good as a writer overall, atleast had a consistent game plan from the get go.

[blackzoid]

Its possible that SE may come back to some of the Dharujistan elements in the Karsa trilogy.

[champ]

blackzoid, on 05 February 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

Its possible that SE may come back to some of the Dharujistan elements in the Karsa trilogy.

You would think that he would with Karsa been on Genabakis and the reunion of Karsa and Torvald better happen!

This post has been edited by champ: 05 February 2012 - 06:57 PM