[jammerculture]

this is a topic about mallick rel. I chose to put it in this forum based on all the questions being asked about his leadership, motivations for the invasion of korel, etc. there are spoilers for the crippled god in this post. (but come on, if you haven't read it by now what's stopping you?)

When i first read the end of rotcg, i was like "you bastard!". It didn't take me long to remember that laseen had come to power the exact same way. These thougts inevitably lead to the realization that, the assination of big k and his ball of twine, was by design, and was part of an enourmous plot that after the end of the crippled god, made perfect sense. To me these realizations, put a whole new spin on kellanved's motivations for the creation of the empire in the first place.

It has become clear to me that the malazan expansion occurred in two phases. The first was a general expansion, as kellanved used his empire to expand his reach to his closest neigbours in an effort to gain power and knowledge. It has become clear to me that through the gaining of this knowledge he began to understand the forces that were at work in his world, and more importantly the effect it had on his fellow humans. He then chose to use his knowledge to become a god, engineering his own death to accomplish this. Was Laseen a willing participant to this, or just a pawn? It is unknown, what is known is that she eventally meets the same fate. It is also hinted that she manipulated the events that lead to her death, and therefore its possible that her death was part of her plans all along, a malazan retirment so to speak.

The malazan expansion under laseen was way more focused. Every action had the same effect, namely the removal of some power or force that was either enslaving humans or causing them some form of danger, although the reader, and most people involved in the events usually thought there was something entirely different going on. I see the invasion of Korel in the exact same light, which has me seriously questioning Emperor Rel's bastard status.

Could Mallick's ascension be all part of the overall plan?

This post has been edited by jammerculture: 28 January 2012 - 04:41 AM

[worry]

I leave the possibility open for Laseen that you do -- don't totally buy it, but it's got some traction -- but not so for Rel. That said, I wouldn't necessarily consider him a Nero or anything. He's ambitious and self-serving, but he may be dedicated to his version of the Malazen Empire. Remains to be seen I guess. But for instance, Mael rejects him, not the other way around, so I consider that a possible strike against him being "in on it".

[jammerculture]

Whether in on it or a pawn, Rel's first conquest as emperor was very similar to all of Laseen's and accomplished the same things, i.e. freeing a population from the rule of a non-human power. Shadowthrone's moves are tricky to follow but one can't help but see consistecy in the outcomes.

This post has been edited by jammerculture: 28 January 2012 - 07:06 AM

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I think its a typical Erikson/Esselmont theme that nobody in this series is really "evil" and all have their own reasons for their actions. Obviously Mallick isn't go ing to be popular with most fans of the series because of the way he came to power, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if he ended up being a good emperor and actually helping expand or at least maintain the Malazan empire.

[Defiance]

I wouldn't go so far as to say no one in this series is evil. Just as it's a flawed notion to portray everyone in black and white, it's equally flawed to assume that a desire for good (or positive force) is behind at least a few of everyone's actions. Take Bidithal, for instance. He's as black as they come. I've become very weary of the whole "gray" character debate over the past several years. Much better to view characters in terms of their struggles, rather than trying to color them a certain way, in my opinion.

I don't think there's a plan between everyone. Certainly not between Shadowthrone and Cotillion, given their actions toward Laseen. Mallick and Laseen being in the wraps together would also be strange. She certainly seemed to be under distress at the end of The Bonehunters - unless Kalam was wrong, she wanted him to take control of the Claw, kill Mallick and Korbolo to save her ass.

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

I didn't mean everyone, or even most people strive to do good. There have definitely been evil acts in the series, I guess what I was trying to say was that E&E seem to write everyone having a reason for doing whatever they do (and being a sociopath is still a reason I guess). The purpose was not to write off Mallick as being an 'evil' character just because he did underhanded things to rally the support of the peoples of the empire and hurt popular characters like the Wickans, Mael and even Lasseen. My point was that even though he made a power grab that made him unpopular with many readers (myself included) it doesn't mean he can't be an effective ruler now that he has the power he so ruthlessly pursued.

[jammerculture]

Just think about gardens of the moon, where it was a known fact that the empire was trying to destroy the Bridgeburners, yet it was later revealed that it was not thay way at all, and that that perception was even a desired part of the subterfuge that was geared towards overcoming an enemy that we weren't even aware of. These were Laseens's plots, or were they Shadowthrones? They went towards ST aims, even though the orders were undoubtably given by Laseen. Later it was considered that the whole thing was setup to prevent the gods from realizing that an ascendant was in control of a human empire.

Did Laseen know that Kellanved desired to be assasinated? Does it matter? Did Kellanved know that if Surly did the deed she would then react the way she did as Empress and in doing so serve his purposes? Apply these same lines of reasoning to Laseens death. The results so far of Mallick as emperor continue to serve Shadowthrones purposes. So wether or not they are "in on it" or not, one thing that is for sure is that the Malazan empire is still an instrument of Kellanved's desire.

[Lady Bliss]

Personally I'm not convinced that Kellanved wanted to be assassinated. I think he and Dancer planned on entering the deadhouse, but the assassination attempt was completely seperate, and actually added to the complication of ascending. From what we've seen in the books, you don't have to die to become a god.

Mallick is a traiterous weasel and he manipulated Laseen into a position where she couldn't win. While I doubt that ST shed a tear for Laseen, from his comments at the end of tCG I don't think he was happy with her successor. I can see an old loyalist taking over in the future with ST's blessing, or maybe Pust and a gang of Bokha'rala.

[Kanese S's]

I do think that to some degree, K&D decided that they would not be both gods and the rulers of the Empire. People have pointed it out in the past that power draws power, and the heads of a mortal empire retaining that position while also taking over shadow as gods would have drawn too much attention from other ascendants.

[Sindriss]

BlissFulnite, on 04 February 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Personally I'm not convinced that Kellanved wanted to be assassinated. I think he and Dancer planned on entering the deadhouse, but the assassination attempt was completely seperate, and actually added to the complication of ascending. From what we've seen in the books, you don't have to die to become a god.

Mallick is a traiterous weasel and he manipulated Laseen into a position where she couldn't win. While I doubt that ST shed a tear for Laseen, from his comments at the end of tCG I don't think he was happy with her successor. I can see an old loyalist taking over in the future with ST's blessing, or maybe Pust and a gang of Bokha'rala.

I don't know, from Night of Knives it seems pretty obvious that they pretty much planned for it. "they plan to lose everything, in order to win" or something along those lines.

Regarding Laseen ascending, she really does not strike me as the type who want to become a god or ascendent. And I think that her story is closed and wonderfully so, in the true malazan sense, with unfinished ambitions and a sense of mortality and tragedy, combined with just the right amount of "peace in death".

[Luperci]

worry, on 28 January 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

I leave the possibility open for Laseen that you do -- don't totally buy it, but it's got some traction -- but not so for Rel. That said, I wouldn't necessarily consider him a Nero or anything. He's ambitious and self-serving, but he may be dedicated to his version of the Malazen Empire. Remains to be seen I guess. But for instance, Mael rejects him, not the other way around, so I consider that a possible strike against him being "in on it".

Is it ever really explained the meaning of her death at the end of ROtCG? She's just struck from the Imperial Warren by Topper right? Seems strange how she just died at the end of the battle after being so careful to keep Otataral around to prevent that exact situation. We gotta remember though that Kell and Dancer didn't really die since they were alive when they crawled into the Deadhouse, so I don't see Laseen ascending unless of course she has some deal with Shadow and planned on joining the House.

[Egwene]

CapedCrusader, on 16 May 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

worry, on 28 January 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

I leave the possibility open for Laseen that you do -- don't totally buy it, but it's got some traction -- but not so for Rel. That said, I wouldn't necessarily consider him a Nero or anything. He's ambitious and self-serving, but he may be dedicated to his version of the Malazen Empire. Remains to be seen I guess. But for instance, Mael rejects him, not the other way around, so I consider that a possible strike against him being "in on it".

Is it ever really explained the meaning of her death at the end of ROtCG? She's just struck from the Imperial Warren by Topper right? Seems strange how she just died at the end of the battle after being so careful to keep Otataral around to prevent that exact situation. We gotta remember though that Kell and Dancer didn't really die since they were alive when they crawled into the Deadhouse, so I don't see Laseen ascending unless of course she has some deal with Shadow and planned on joining the House.

Laseen was killed by Taya Radok, not Topper. The latter in fact foiled an assassination attempt on the empress by Cowl just prior.

[Luperci]

Egwene, on 02 June 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

CapedCrusader, on 16 May 2014 - 08:01 PM, said:

worry, on 28 January 2012 - 04:29 AM, said:

I leave the possibility open for Laseen that you do -- don't totally buy it, but it's got some traction -- but not so for Rel. That said, I wouldn't necessarily consider him a Nero or anything. He's ambitious and self-serving, but he may be dedicated to his version of the Malazen Empire. Remains to be seen I guess. But for instance, Mael rejects him, not the other way around, so I consider that a possible strike against him being "in on it".

Is it ever really explained the meaning of her death at the end of ROtCG? She's just struck from the Imperial Warren by Topper right? Seems strange how she just died at the end of the battle after being so careful to keep Otataral around to prevent that exact situation. We gotta remember though that Kell and Dancer didn't really die since they were alive when they crawled into the Deadhouse, so I don't see Laseen ascending unless of course she has some deal with Shadow and planned on joining the House.

Laseen was killed by Taya Radok, not Topper. The latter in fact foiled an assassination attempt on the empress by Cowl just prior.

Ahh thats right, it's been some time since I finished RoTCG. Taya being Vorcan's daughter right? I'm reading OST now and that girl really gets on my nerves.