[Defiance]

Who/what was the Tyrant? Obviously we can't get an entirely solid answer on that, but let's try to pull together as much information as we can about him to draw some solid conclusions.

--We know that he was human. He ruled Darujhistan several times (I believe the Age of Tyrants was consecutive, meaning that his rule was all in one time period) under different guises, but in the end it was the same person. He somehow found a way to put his spirit into the mask, but is also able to impart some of himself on those he possesses (we know he's in Ebbin at the end). Sounds like something with Mockra to me. However, the Tyrant does seem to have had a bit of an obsession with Raest, and perhaps drew his example from Jaghut Tyrants, finding a way to use the same magic the Tyrants did in order to rule people.

--What was up with the whole white stone? I know there's a poem or some such about it. Can somebody find the quotes about the stone, so that we can figure out how it exactly relates to the Tyrant?

--What was the little orb/pearl thing that Ebbin found at the beginning by the corpse in the twelfth sealed tomb? Was never really clear on that...

--When Topper (I think) investigates the Tyrant's tomb, if I recall, upon seeing the twelfth corpse, he remarks that it's Jaghut. What can we draw from this?

--T'orrud Cabal. So, originally the twelve demon servants of the Tyrant. It appears that they were chained along with him. They were firmly against his return. Not quite sure how they fit in, or how they escaped from their tombs with the Tyrant. Who were they in the first place? I'm going to make a few guesses as to this: the Tyrant mentally chained twelve demons (are they all demons???) to do his bidding. When the Tyrant finally gets stopped, him and his servants are sealed away (not killed?). Due to the Tyrant being inactive, though, the possession passes and 11 of the 12 escape, the last being the dead one that Ebbin happens across.

--Who the hell stopped him the first time? There are several references to, "him" throughout the book, but it's never really made clear. Caladan Brood, maybe?

Truly the Stormriders of OST.


Orchid. Huh? Where's her plot line going, what's she have to do with anything? We better see her in the next two ICE novels, otherwise the entire Moon's Spawn plot was worthless.

Seguleh First mask on Moon's Spawn? I'm assuming Rake took this on his visit to Cant. Also, relating to the mask and how it's carved from the same white stone as the Tyrant's throne: the mask was created to symbolize a new beginning for the Seguleh, but at the same time to remind them of their past and what they came from. Over the thousands of years, though, things became muddled. Their exodus was referred to as an exile, and exile generally has negative connotations, and so they began to long for former (non-existent) glory.

Morn was Draconus?

Jacuruku "automatons" - not much to say here, other than these really need to be explained in the Jacuruku novel. Please, please don't let them be the next Stormriders. Also, highly looking forward to seeing what's up with Ardata there.

Shores of Creation and the Vitr. Obviously didn't get a lot of explanation, as not many people even know it exists, much less could explain it. I wonder how it fits in with Mother Dark, and if we'll see more of it in the Kharkanas trilogy. How did Tayschrenn become immune to it? Also, I'm assuming that the woman Kiska talked to while Tayschrenn was visiting D'rek was K'rul, and between his visit and hearing what K'rul said to Kiska, Tayschrenn knew what he had to do (take a walk into a K'rul-inator?).

--K'rul as a woman. It's not a far cry to say Elder Gods can switch genders, however people believing that she's a woman in the first place is weird as hell. Always been referred to as a guy, hell, even someone (Spindle maybe?) in OST says something like, "But K'rul is a guy."

--Is Tayschrenn the "new" K'rul. How/why - is this K'rul's way of surviving? We better learn more about this in future books. I'm sure we'll see more of "T'renn", but I could definitely see ICE not explaining what exactly happened.

--Interesting pattern: The pantheon is filling up with new gods. Malazans have center stage (BBs of Death, our favorite Shadow gods, and now a Tayschrenn K'rul).


That's all I've got for now. More thoughts/questions later. Really enjoyed the book by the way, great follow-up to TtH.

[Cause]

 Defiance, on 27 January 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

Who/what was the Tyrant? Obviously we can't get an entirely solid answer on that, but let's try to pull together as much information as we can about him to draw some solid conclusions.

--We know that he was human. He ruled Darujhistan several times (I believe the Age of Tyrants was consecutive, meaning that his rule was all in one time period) under different guises, but in the end it was the same person. He somehow found a way to put his spirit into the mask, but is also able to impart some of himself on those he possesses (we know he's in Ebbin at the end). Sounds like something with Mockra to me. However, the Tyrant does seem to have had a bit of an obsession with Raest, and perhaps drew his example from Jaghut Tyrants, finding a way to use the same magic the Tyrants did in order to rule people.

Disagree. We know he was in a human body this time. We know the Imass thought it was a jhaghut but was shocked to see it was a human. I dont know if we can be sure if he is the spirit of a jhaghut, human or something else

Quote

--What was the little orb/pearl thing that Ebbin found at the beginning by the corpse in the twelfth sealed tomb? Was never really clear on that...

My first thought was finnest. Never had a second. Did he make Ebbin swallow it though? Their was also a strange connection between it and the moon is some of the flowery prose.

Quote

--When Topper (I think) investigates the Tyrant's tomb, if I recall, upon seeing the twelfth corpse, he remarks that it's Jaghut. What can we draw from this?

Did he? I dont recall?

Quote

--Who the hell stopped him the first time? There are several references to, "him" throughout the book, but it's never really made clear. Caladan Brood, maybe?

I figured it was Kruppe. He may be more than he seems. He is also the circle breaker. Perhaps because he breaks the perfect circle of rulership.

Quote

Orchid. Huh? Where's her plot line going, what's she have to do with anything? We better see her in the next two ICE novels, otherwise the entire Moon's Spawn plot was worthless.

Agreed

Quote

Seguleh First mask on Moon's Spawn? I'm assuming Rake took this on his visit to Cant. Also, relating to the mask and how it's carved from the same white stone as the Tyrant's throne: the mask was created to symbolize a new beginning for the Seguleh, but at the same time to remind them of their past and what they came from. Over the thousands of years, though, things became muddled. Their exodus was referred to as an exile, and exile generally has negative connotations, and so they began to long for former (non-existent) glory.

Had Rake taken it they would have hunted him down without cease. I doubt its that clear. Also so unlike him to steal such an artificat I think.

Quote

Morn was Draconus?

Seems Likely

Quote

--K'rul as a woman. It's not a far cry to say Elder Gods can switch genders, however people believing that she's a woman in the first place is weird as hell. Always been referred to as a guy, hell, even someone (Spindle maybe?) in OST says something like, "But K'rul is a guy."

Just odd. We cant even speculate about its meaning on the evidence we were given.

[polishgenius]

 Defiance, on 27 January 2012 - 03:14 PM, said:

--What was up with the whole white stone? I know there's a poem or some such about it. Can somebody find the quotes about the stone, so that we can figure out how it exactly relates to the Tyrant?

I got the impression that it had to do with the shielding used at the end to stop the Moranth.

Quote

--What was the little orb/pearl thing that Ebbin found at the beginning by the corpse in the twelfth sealed tomb? Was never really clear on that...

The Tyrant made him eat it in order to become his mouthpiece. I think.

Quote

Seguleh First mask on Moon's Spawn? I'm assuming Rake took this on his visit to Cant.

My theory is that Apsalar stole it and it ended up in Moon's Spawn when she went to steal the flower, but there's no concrete information.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 27 January 2012 - 03:47 PM

[Cause]

The Alabaster circle was definitely the source of the bubble shield. Why that stone was used instead of any other who has a clue

[Urizen]

Maybe the Tyrant never was a being at all. Maybe He/It is "merely" a manifestation of humamity's desire for total domination. As we learn in DoD Ursto Hoobutt and Pinosel become Lord and Lady of Beer and Wine thanks to it's development by humanity, so why should'nt humanity's desire to control it's surrondings manifest it self?

[AnomanderRakeSoD]

I am inclined to believe the Tyrant was originally a Jaghut. We also know Rake didn't stop him or he would have been dead. I wouldn't be surprised if the First offered Rake the mask.

[mostly.harmless]

And where does Rallick take Ebbin at the end, or what does he do to him? Ebbin keeps saying how he doesnt want to die, and he could have run. So... Rallick is taking him to his own funeral?

[Seiko]

He took him to the azath house where Raest resides.

[tiam]

 Seiko, on 02 February 2012 - 12:22 AM, said:

He took him to the azath house where Raest resides.

Was any one else surpised by Barathol not giving a shit about Chaur? Why keep him alive in the Azath, have him become normal instead of him being a giant child yet give him no role in the book.

[Silk]

probably because Chaur's story might only start again in another book ..... ? and ther eis a little Chaur too .........

[Asharak]

"And where does Rallick take Ebbin at the end, or what does he do to him? Ebbin keeps saying how he doesnt want to die, and he could have run. So... Rallick is taking him to his own funeral?"


One of the last scenes of the book was Ralick and Ebbin walking into the Azath house, and then Ralick convincing Raest to let Ebbin stay there. If you skipped this by accident you should go back and read it, Ebbins reaction to meeting Raest, and Raest`s reaction to meeting Ebbin was priceless.





" --K'rul as a woman. It's not a far cry to say Elder Gods can switch genders, however people believing that she's a woman in the first place is weird as hell. Always been referred to as a guy, hell, even someone (Spindle maybe?) in OST says something like, "But K'rul is a guy.""



I took it as a joke based upon some people in our world claiming the Christian God is a woman, despite "him" usually being presented as a man. I don't think K`rul is really a man or a woman, he is an elemental being that takes different shapes.

This post has been edited by Asharak: 29 February 2012 - 09:04 AM

[The Swordbearer]

My thoughts on the above notes.

Tyrant started out as normal {sic} Jaghut Tyrant but upon studying Raest and his failure decided to imbue its essence/spirit/finnest? into the mask and small orb/pearl knowing the inherant greed/curiosity of mankind therefore creating a repeat resurection chain.

As far as the Orchid story line being a pointless dead end I think mayhaps her story will be covered/picked up in KKT ? KCT

Due to the Tyrant's manipulation, the Seguleh as a people IMO were a geneticaly engineered super soldier. faster reflexes higher strength to weight ratio and a longer non physicaly degenerative lifespan etc
{Jan made reference to the swift passage of time and how many thirds there had been}

The FA allso messed with the Barghast to do the same. The KCM Matrons did it with their own offspring.

On a side note I would have liked to see how Lazan Dor and Madrun aquired Thurule as their apprentice. AKA welcome to the dark side young padawan


As to K'rul's gender, I had an Idea from playing MPORG's. Like how many ppl out there are running around in WOW with toons of the opposite sex.
kinda think it would be the same for omnipotent godlike beings.

This post has been edited by The Swordbearer: 01 March 2012 - 09:26 AM

[worry]

You could say that this Tyrant put his powers into two Finnests to be carried by two different beings/groups, which is a smarter move than Raest used. The pearl thing being actually inside one of them, before OST/Ebbin it was inside a T'orrud Cabal demon, so pretty exceptional. And the other, the mask, traditionally being worn by the human vessel of the Tyrant himself, and so the First of Firsts among the Seguleh. Both branches of his servants protecting a Finnest. And both hiding the fact that it's a Jaghut Tyrant in the first place, so not attracting the T'lan Imass as Raest did.

[The Swordbearer]

 worrywort, on 01 March 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

You could say that this Tyrant put his powers into two Finnests to be carried by two different beings/groups, which is a smarter move than Raest used. The pearl thing being actually inside one of them, before OST/Ebbin it was inside a T'orrud Cabal demon, so pretty exceptional. And the other, the mask, traditionally being worn by the human vessel of the Tyrant himself, and so the First of Firsts among the Seguleh. Both branches of his servants protecting a Finnest. And both hiding the fact that it's a Jaghut Tyrant in the first place, so not attracting the T'lan Imass as Raest did.

Zactly so

[Asharak]

My impression was that the Tyrant definetley was originally a Jaghut, since the Miner T`lan Imass was certain he was until he studied his body. It seemed to me like he almost smelled him out, but was tricked by his outward appearance.

[Nyarlathotep]

The Tyrant. I'm assuming he's a Jaghut Tyrant spirit in a human host. Which is why the Imass is confused because the JT spirit moves from the host's body to Ebbin.
The white stone and the orb/pearl. Need to do a re-read for them.
Jaghut tomb. Remaining corpse. I thought it was a demon corpse but my memory might be influenced by theories put forward on the forum.
T'orrud Cabal. They would appear to be demons. Barak and Vorcan are. There isn't much info given about how they escaped originally but they are definately against his return and being enslaved by him again.
Who stopped him first time? A lot of people think it's Kruppe. ICE keeps it vary vague.
Orchid. She better appear again. You can't have someone referred to as "Daughter of Tiam" then leave it at that.
Seguleh First's mask on Moon's Spawn. Who knows?
Morn/Draconus. Certainly appears to be but how this ties in with TCG is a mystery.
Jacuruku automatons. Again, they better appear in the seuels.
Shores of Creation and the Vitr. I've nothing against ICE adding to the mythology/history of Wu but you would have thought something called the Shores of Creation would be better known. I can't even begin to speculate about its role with regards to Mother Dark, Father Light and Chaos.
Woman talking to Kiska in D'rek's hidey hole. I thought it was D'rek or an avatar of D'rek. But could've been K'rul. Again, not enough info given to say either way with confidence.
K'rul as a woman. Well, I'm sure a god can appear in any form they bloody well want. It's just that so far all the other gods/goddesses stick to gender. In GOTM, when K'rul appears in Kruppe's dreams, he/she/it comes across as male although I can't remember whether it's actually stated that K'rul is male. In MOI, Keruli is an avatar rather than the actual god, so, again, whatever form fits. Personally, I think ICE is just fucking around with our expectations and assumptions.
Tayschrenn/the new K'rul. It's a fair assumption that Tayscrenn has ascended seeing as he's now called T'renn. Similarities with K'rul, D'rek and T'riss for example. As to being the new K'rul? Given that Tayschrenn accepts his new persona after speaking to K'rul you could speculate that's the case but it is left vague (again!) and we don't really know. This is something that should appear in further books and can't be left as it is but this is Malazan after all. Expect and assume nothing!