[Powder]

If you have not read OST READ NO FURTHER, THERE BE SPOILERS IN THE MIX.

NO REALLY SPOILERS ARE DOWN THERE

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Post:

The Segulah plotline seemed forced to me. I never understood why they were fighting and slaying thousands of people. I feel as though I did not get enough information to validate the slaughter that seemed to appall them so. They seemed entirely too honorable to just slink into the roll of mass murdering douchebaggery. To me their story goes like this. Bat signal is seen in the temple. They BA march to D'stan. They show up proud but confused. Feel saddened that they are guards. Get even sadder when they realize they are servants. Start slaying thousands of people (feeling bad about it the whole time) and then its over.

Now I liked their characterization. I liked how they interacted with outsiders. I even liked the resolution with Dassem. Overall I think this book was the best ICE novel to date. In the past I have criticized a great many things about his writing but this really did feel like a Malazan novel to me. Minus some small parts seeming a bit.... forced.

Thoughts?

[tiam]

I think they went from proud warrior society based on individual prowess with a respect to tradition to simply being rank and file guards. They dont revel in indiscriminate slaughter. We see from Mok in MOI that the Seguleh believe such slaughter stains the soul, possibly explaining his own absence from the Agatii, which was never explained. We see that it is left to the Blackmasks to slaughter those who encroach on land. Indeed the Seguleh top ten Agatii very rarely spill blood were told having taken their art and way of life to the purest form. They were under pressure because there own tradition bound them to the Tyrant and they realised, or atleast Jan made them realise, that they were more than they once were when they were 'ashamed' in exile than when they were with the Tyrant.

[Cause]

I agree many odd things happened regarding the Seguleh culture. When the second first faced the Tyrant and debated weather to kneel or to serve I got the impression that he knew what the Tyrant was about and was debating whether to kill him but risk his and all his men's lives or to accept slavery again. I got the impression the Seguleh went into to exile after betraying or at least escaping the Tyrant. I figured they had been waiting in readiness all this time to oppose him when he came. I was amazed when none of this story line materialized. Had I imagined this whole aspect in my head? That aside while I know the Seguleh are all about the hierarchy and they have ancient history with the Tyrant I cant believe they accepted his ruler ship without at least some kind of ritualized challenge where they make him prove himself.

I also find the first refusing to share the details of the Seguleh exile with the second contrived. Their can only ever be one first at a time so who have all the former firsts been sharing their knowledge with. Further why was the second never made first? I doubt the Seguleh, such a rigid culture, could really forget the position must be offered not taken. If the talk in the barracks was that the second should take the position why did no one offer it to him? They value the hierarchy and determine it by skill with a blade. Who else would they offer it to? What was his perceived flaw. There is mystery and then there is when vagueness becomes a plot hole.

There was an amazing moment for me though when the second after executing the guard passes two wardens and remarks something along the lines 'before I would have seen respect in their down turned gazes and now I see only fear'. I understood in that moment how they could think the way that they do. How their culture had been shaped by the Tyrant in ages past, conditioned, to see the world in a certain way to make them what they are. When they walked down a street and everyone looks at them with fear and hate they actually misread it as respect and awe. Hard to reconcile the Tyrant of old with the one we saw in the books.

[Powder]

I guess it just felt like ICE needed someone to fight, and so the bill fell to the Seguleh. It is precisely because their hierarchy breaks down, and they question the Tyrant that it feels forced to me.

[Binko]

Powder, on 27 January 2012 - 03:31 AM, said:

I guess it just felt like ICE needed someone to fight, and so the bill fell to the Seguleh. It is precisely because their hierarchy breaks down, and they question the Tyrant that it feels forced to me.

I don't think you can underestimate the degree to which a warrior culture will follow it's code of honor.

Look at the Samurai, upon whom the Seguleh seem to be lightly based. They would kill or die on command because their code of Bushido, which was reinforced by a lifetime of training and indoctrination, conditioned them to blind obedience. If the Emperor had decreed that 1000 Samurai kill everybody in a village or even just sit in a circle and commit ritual suicide they would have done it without question.

My reading is that the Seguleh were sent away and told to maintain readiness and wait for the signal to return. Their entire existence was based upon this and it would take a lot to turn them from it. I actually think the Seguleh were handled very well.

[Harvester]

The oddest thing for me was the bombardement of the Seguleh army. That scene was so miswritten and out of character that I didn't know how to react to it. Why was everyone crying? The Malazans have never had any scruples about using munition if it meant an easier and swift win. Sweep up the remains of the Letherii army and ask them if you doubt my words.
I know what he was trying to do, but an emotional battle scene does not work like that. (IMO)

This post has been edited by Harvester: 29 January 2012 - 01:44 PM

[Powder]

My problem was that they were all internally/existentially questioning the motives of the Tyrant, instead of just voluntarily killing themselves like the aforementioned samurai. They all seemed too nice and only bound externally by their codes instead of being internally bound as well.

[tiam]

Harvester, on 29 January 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

The oddest thing for me was the bombardement of the Seguleh army. That scene was so miswritten and out of character that I didn't know how to react to it. Why was everyone crying? The Malazans have never had any scruples about using munition if it meant an easier and swift win. Sweep up the remains of the Letherii army and ask them if you doubt my words.
I know what he was trying to do, but an emotional battle scene does not work like that. (IMO)

I actually thought the Malazans were going to beat the Seguleh. Alot of people have questions 10000 men being had off by 400 warriors for good reason. In SW Len or one of the other veterans claims the Malazans could take Seguleh as there just a warrior society similar to the Barghast. Fierce individual warriors but still not good against organised forces. Obv the Seguleh are ridiculously competent but I found a little jarring.

Another line from SW that I thought would be answered was the same conversation where Len claims it would be stupid to invade Elingarth, after saying they could beat the Seguleh. The Grey Swords were from Elingarth and its considered the largest city down there yet we see nothing of it. I was hoping it would be some sort of hotbed for religious mercenaries.

[amphibian]

tiam, on 29 January 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

I was hoping [Elingarth] would be some sort of hotbed for religious mercenaries.

The bar fights down there must be out of control.

"My god is mightier than yours!"

"Nuh-uh!"

"Yuh-huh!"

"My thousand-strong mixed gender mercenary company and I beg to disagree!"

"Oh? My two thousand-strong half-Jhag half-Edur mercenary company backs me up fully."

"We're commanded by an Eres'al, so we just time-traveled back and wiped out all your company's parents, except yours - so we could tell you how pwnt you are."

"RRRAAAAAGGHHH! TREACH AID ME! RRRAAAGGHH!"

Smash, bang, glass breaking sound.

Barkeeper - "That's it! Tell that Icarium dood I have a bouncer job waiting for him!"

[Tapper]

tiam, on 29 January 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Harvester, on 29 January 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

The oddest thing for me was the bombardement of the Seguleh army. That scene was so miswritten and out of character that I didn't know how to react to it. Why was everyone crying? The Malazans have never had any scruples about using munition if it meant an easier and swift win. Sweep up the remains of the Letherii army and ask them if you doubt my words.
I know what he was trying to do, but an emotional battle scene does not work like that. (IMO)

I actually thought the Malazans were going to beat the Seguleh. Alot of people have questions 10000 men being had off by 400 warriors for good reason.

Mok and his punitary expedition vehemently disagree... and upon reading back, in MoI K'rul also expected the Seguleh to send a couple of hundred low ranking warriors against the Pannion Domin - and expected them to do well. Sure, the Pannion infantry wasn't up to Malazan standards (and lacked munition and mage cadres), but it was far more numerous

[tiam]

Tapper, on 30 January 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

tiam, on 29 January 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

Harvester, on 29 January 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

The oddest thing for me was the bombardement of the Seguleh army. That scene was so miswritten and out of character that I didn't know how to react to it. Why was everyone crying? The Malazans have never had any scruples about using munition if it meant an easier and swift win. Sweep up the remains of the Letherii army and ask them if you doubt my words.
I know what he was trying to do, but an emotional battle scene does not work like that. (IMO)

I actually thought the Malazans were going to beat the Seguleh. Alot of people have questions 10000 men being had off by 400 warriors for good reason.

Mok and his punitary expedition vehemently disagree... and upon reading back, in MoI K'rul also expected the Seguleh to send a couple of hundred low ranking warriors against the Pannion Domin - and expected them to do well. Sure, the Pannion infantry wasn't up to Malazan standards (and lacked munition and mage cadres), but it was far more numerous

True I just thought seen as we knew the Seguleh where going to have a part to play in OST I thought ICE might be foreshadowing a more even fight with the Seguleh.

Also can we take that 400 14th level initiates line as canon now? We hear that the ship that we saw in ROTCG with Oru was considered their largest expedition. I think the Krul line of 400 initiates fits with the First sending Mok because he fearedhis prowess which we now know not to be true.

[Harvester]

Tapper, on 30 January 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Mok and his punitary expedition vehemently disagree... and upon reading back, in MoI K'rul also expected the Seguleh to send a couple of hundred low ranking warriors against the Pannion Domin - and expected them to do well. Sure, the Pannion infantry wasn't up to Malazan standards (and lacked munition and mage cadres), but it was far more numerous

They had an enraged Envy with them, though. TTH shows how quickly the Seguleh can go down.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 30 January 2012 - 11:52 AM

[Strabo]

tiam, on 29 January 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

I actually thought the Malazans were going to beat the Seguleh. Alot of people have questions 10000 men being had off by 400 warriors for good reason. In SW Len or one of the other veterans claims the Malazans could take Seguleh as there just a warrior society similar to the Barghast. Fierce individual warriors but still not good against organised forces. Obv the Seguleh are ridiculously competent but I found a little jarring.

The Malazans could beat them, sure. If they had a full strength army, with sappers with munitions, actual cadre mages, auxiliary forces and time to build defenses. But they had two understrength units, combined in haste, no mages at all, nearly no sappers and apparently they left their crossbows at home, because we have only one instance of them actually being used with limited success against the Seguleh (really, at a certain number of incoming bolts you can be a Jedi in terms of deflecting/avoiding them, it still would kill you, because you would be overwhelmed). The Seguleh seem to be a force completely relying on their hand-to-hand combat superiority, so they should be easily killed if this form of combat is avoided. Unfortuantely for the Malazans in the book they had only infantry units to fight with (for more or less contrived reasons).

This post has been edited by Strabo: 30 January 2012 - 12:44 PM

[tiam]

Strabo, on 30 January 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

tiam, on 29 January 2012 - 11:54 PM, said:

I actually thought the Malazans were going to beat the Seguleh. Alot of people have questions 10000 men being had off by 400 warriors for good reason. In SW Len or one of the other veterans claims the Malazans could take Seguleh as there just a warrior society similar to the Barghast. Fierce individual warriors but still not good against organised forces. Obv the Seguleh are ridiculously competent but I found a little jarring.

The Malazans could beat them, sure. If they had a full strength army, with sappers with munitions, actual cadre mages, auxiliary forces and time to build defenses. But they had two understrength units, combined in haste, no mages at all, nearly no sappers and apparently they left their crossbows at home, because we have only one instance of them actually being used with limited success against the Seguleh (really, at a certain number of incoming bolts you can be a Jedi in terms of deflecting/avoiding them, it still would kill you, because you would be overwhelmed). The Seguleh seem to be a force completely relying on their hand-to-hand combat superiority, so they should be easily killed if this form of combat is avoided. Unfortuantely for the Malazans in the book they had only infantry units to fight with (for more or less contrived reasons).

Yes but the point I was making is ICE had a veteran claim the Malazans could beat the Seguleh in the same way they have broken individual warrior societies. Malazan vs Barghast, Trell vs Nemil the books paint the savages usually losing and Mapo says as much. Realistically, volley upon volley of bolts should have greeted those Seguleh, though I understand they were low on bolts. I just thought ICE was forshadowing something in SW that didnt happen. Hardly a criticism of ICE but I just thought he wassetting the scene.

The reason why I dont mention, mages, sappers defences etc is because it was actually mentioned they would win because of discipline rather than 'cheap' tricks of blasting a warrior society with no missile weapons with munitions and waves of magic. You could claim Tayas killing of the mages stopped this as the Tyrant acknowledged a weakness with the Seguleh. They can deflect bolts and obviously dont tire or struggle hand to hand so Taya taking out the mages took the main threat from the Malazans.

[Fist Gamet]

Harvester, on 29 January 2012 - 01:43 PM, said:

The oddest thing for me was the bombardement of the Seguleh army. That scene was so miswritten and out of character that I didn't know how to react to it. Why was everyone crying? The Malazans have never had any scruples about using munition if it meant an easier and swift win. Sweep up the remains of the Letherii army and ask them if you doubt my words.
I know what he was trying to do, but an emotional battle scene does not work like that. (IMO)

Agreed, it just didn't work. It was one of those moments when the writer expects the reader to feel something that he just hasn't set the proper groundwork for. It was contrived, imho. In warfare, when faced with slaughter, who the hell wouldn't drop a dirty big bomb on their enemies before theyy could reach them and kill them?
The Seguleh fight with the Malazan army was dissappointing. Why would the Malazan veterans stationed throughout Genebackis with the Moranth as allies not have any munitions??? They had time to prepare, leaving behind a strong defensive position and fleeing, which didn't make sense to me, militarily. You guys have already mentioned the lack of ranged weaponry used by the Seguleh and how this would be a massive disadvantage in warfare. The guy who gets what, 14 crossbow bolts shot at him and is lightly wounded by two just really pissed me off as being ridiculous. For me, the portrayal of the Seguleh went too far, in fact, so far towards the ridiculous that they annoyed me - and they shouldn't have. ICE made a great job of the CG but not, imvho, the Seguleh. I believe they would have been far more effective if they could actually get wounded and killed in the normal course of a battle, for even if they took down ten or twenty Malazan soldiers for each of them they would still be as scarey as hell!

[Aptorian]

Erikson and Esslemonts soldiers are as always somewhat more "intellectual and spiritual" than your common human being. Their reactions to and thoughts about the bombardment was more the authors comment on the brutality of modern warfare than it was about the killing of some 500 men. It marks the dying of one form of warfare in the Malazan world as we know it and the beginning of another. It's never mentioned but you can be damned sure that Malazan alchemists and magicians have been working for decades to unlock the chemical and magical properties of Moranth Munitions. Once they do, and we all know they will eventually, that or some Moranth will go renegade like an American nuclear physicist, then you will have two super powers with gun powder bombs. That will lead to gun powder riffles. That will put an end to the already defunct armored and shield armies. In will come trench warfare and a whole new kind of slaughter as the "munitions" become bigger and more powerful.

There is a difference between killing another man with a sharp object, face to face on a battle field and killing him and a dozen other people from a distance with some ball of death the armory issued you. There is a detachment there. A distance. A void. Munitions will destroy the level playing field, the feeling of "comrade in arms" between two soldiers, as one the soldiers comments during the book.

I was never that surprised how good the Seguleh did against the Malazans though. You have to remember that this was not just elite sword fights, these were among the 200 best elite sword fighters from a thousands of years old samurai ninja culture. Of course they were going to destroy any one that comes close to them. Remember Dassem in RCG? While Ereko is dealing with the Edur Captain. In the time it has taken them to exchange a few sentences Dassem has killed an entire warships crew, set the boat on fire and is already fucking up the next boat. Granted, the 300th is probably not able to destroy a warboat in a manner of heartbeats but I'd still not want to be anywhere near one of those guys if he was pissed at me.

[Fist Gamet]

I think you may be reading a bit too much into it, Apt, although I concede you may be entirely correct! I just don't think so. I don't think ICE is commenting in the brutality of war or the passing of some golden age of warfare. In fact, I always had the strong impression that the Malazan world was kind of stuck in the swords and sorcery era and had done so for hundreds of thousands of years. I believed that SE and ICE made a conscious decision to stop technological development in the world - there would be no industrial revolution. Alchemy and munitions were, I always thought, a satisfactory way to balance against powerful magic users and the founding races.

Aside from that, even were I to accept your point about the spirituality of the soldiers, the scene itself was so badly handled that it simply didn't work. It was forced and jarring.

I get what you are saying about the distance between men in war, after all, one could argue that the arms race over thousands of years has always been about creating more and more distance between the killer and the killed (swords and spears to bows and crossbows and guns then artillery and rockets etc...) but it seems to me that the Malazan military (Marines in particular) have always been happy to use crossbows and munitions to kill from a distance.

[the broken]

Quote

Why would the Malazan veterans stationed throughout Genebackis with the Moranth as allies not have any munitions???

The Imperial Arsenal is destroyed in ROTCG. The Moranth alliance is dead, and the Korelri campaign has happened since. Anything issued to the sapper heavy Korel campaign probably wasn't returned, because sappers hoard all the munitions they can.

The lack of mages I saw as a natural consequence of Laseen's anti-mage purges, the decimation of the Claw, and Pannion's poisoning of the warrens in MOI. A lot of lesser mages were probably killed before they understood what had happened.

The lack of crossbows I can't explain, but it makes sense that the Genabackis army isn't that well supplied. The Empire didn't anticipate the tyrants return, and there are no military threats on Genabackis. Darujistan has no army, Brood had disbanded his host, and the Andii aren't interested in expansion. The Seguleh have never left their island in numbers.

Quote

I believe they would have been far more effective if they could actually get wounded and killed in the normal course of a battle, for even if they took down ten or twenty Malazan soldiers for each of them they would still be as scarey as hell!

Is it ever stated that they took no casualties during that battle? They do incapacitate about ten Malazans each. The Seguleh 3RD with two lowranking subordinates held against an army in MOI, the Seguleh 3rd with 400 Agatii held against 10,000 Malazans. It's not that strange. The guy who dodges 13 crossbow shot is the spokesman... the lowest ranked Seguleh present. There's 399 others who can do better.

Quote

In SW Len or one of the other veterans claims the Malazans could take Seguleh as there just a warrior society similar to the Barghast.

Someone else in the same conversation states that fifteen thousand Malazan might just take and hold one fishing village in Seguleh Island. There's never been a Seguleh army before, so this conversation is just uninformed speculation. The Seguleh are not the Barghast or the Wickans. There's no infighting clans, and the only way to challenge the 2nd's authority is to beat him in single combat.
There's no room for a Sekara in Seguleh culture.

[tiam]

Very true (the last bit about the SW quote) I simply thought ICE may have been foreshadowing something. Given that we knew the Seguleh were coming u in the next book I thought ICE might have been introducing a level of fallibility to the Seguleh. Its a bit like claims the FA were underpowered in TCG so I just thought he might have been hinting.

It turns out he wasnt

[Fist Gamet]

@The Broken - tis a fair point about the Imperial Arsenal, although I would contend that this is in Unta, and I don't see Moranth munitions all being sent from Genebackis all the way to Unta with none remaining with the veterans on Genebackis. I just don't believe they've none left or no way of getting them when they are stationed right next to the Moranth lands.

The second point is more about how the scene is written, then, if you like. Perhaps it does not mention Seguleh casualties but I believe it was written in a manner for the reader to infer that there were either few or none at all. My point is that if you, as a writer, write something that crosses the line into the 'unbelievable' then you lose the reader - it's a literary truth, like it or not. Suspension of disbelief only gets you so far. Besides, a few others here have argued about the nonsense of these individual warriors, no matter, how skilled, facing an experienced Malazan army trained to defeat numerous warrior cultures for decades, simply cutting the heavily armed and well trained Malazan veterans to shreds. I don't doubt you could argue quite convincingly about it being possible but I maintain that ICE took it all beyond the boundary of what I could believe, thus losing credibility. This is why I feel that he should have written about Seguleh casualties in this battle, perhaps a bit about them being isolated and surrounded by squads who work together to cut them down. If he had done this, he'd have given himself scope for the Malazans to come to respect the nobility, the prowess and the senseless killing of them, which would have set him up to give us the scene of the Malazan's crying when they are bombed (which didn't work because it was badly handled, imho)