[champ]

Now I've had time to digest this - imo - great new entry into the Malazan series, there are a couple of things that I've wondered about and wanted to discuss...

And yes, this will contain spoilers! So please, please, please don't read this thread if you haven't read this book already as it will RUIN your read! You've been warned!

Spoiler

First things first, let's start with the end and Tayschrenn...

Quote

'Nay! Kruppe must be Kruppe! But what of... the other... may Kruppe ask?'
'Still with me. I have much to learn yet. These things can take centuries.'
'Ah... Why, of course! Kruppe is no stranger to such things!'
The man warmed his hands at the fire. Yet a man no longer. Near force of nature now!
...
'You may call me T'renn.'

Just what was his task and what did he achieve/accomplish, no clue so far! Maybe a future RAFO or I've missed something!

Onto Orchid... First the poem...

Quote

Mother Dark he forswore,
Death's own blade he bore.
Dragon's blood courses his veins,
Immortal,
He walks till end of Light:
Anomander,
Night's own fickle Knight.
...
'From an epic poem composed during the Holy City period of the Seven Cities region, she said.

Speculation - Could be composed by QB? Further hints towards Andii soul, he's knowing to write poetry with the Azath poem.

And just who is she...

Quote

'Child,' she called, 'we have been bereft, in mouring. For we have lost a Son of Darkness. Yet behold. We rejoice! For just as precious and rare are the Daughters of Tiam!'

Hmmm!

What else. Raest and the Tyrant!

Quote

'Each time it has been me, scholar. In truth, there has been but one Tyrant.'
The raging winds of Ebbin's mind crept closer. Walls of impenetrable black closing in. 'But... that cannot be. What of Raest? What of him?'
'Ah, yes. Raest. Too crude in his methods. I have refined and perfected his tools. Lessons learned, scholar.'

This just made my thinkymeat explode, can anyone elaborate?

I would of liked to of known the Tyrants name...

Random points, loved the humour in this novel, a few laugh out loud moments, Kruppe was Kruppe, ICE nailed most of the characters and this felt like a Malazan novel!

The tease with Karsa was evil.

Morn = Draconus?! It did cross my mind Rake but the hair, Draconus been known to shade and the appearance to Envy at the end, definately played a hand to go with the card that appeared early, King of High House Dark, the pleasure at meeting Orchid, a daughter of Tiam - Elient link there... but... There was also hints to Rake, the discussion about how Ascendents do not truely die then Morn's reappearance...

Also I'm sure there was something else I wanted to bring up but that's enough rambling for now!

[tiam]

Spoiler

Kruppe bit-Tay is often described as the best mage of his age over Obo and Agayla and even Kellenved. Is it possible he is taking the steop Triss and it seems Ardtaha made to become something akin to the Enchantress role? I.E. most powerful mortal sorcerer who is still involved in the game. It sort of makes sense but Tay isnt described as that powerful though things could be different now hes been to the Shores of creation. This plotline really annoyed me actually for two reasons. 1) Tay just high fives a demon and suddenly hes immune to the Vitr and 2) It took a absolute ton of mages crossing to a different continent and one of them to go absolutely insane with destructive potential to open a rift to the shores of creation. Such a wound closes and all we get is Kiska strolling up the beach afterwards with no idea how she got there. I know ICE is fond of these 'Take me to Unta!' epilogue sequences but really it annoyed me.

Poem- A bit of a leap to take it immediately to QB or one of his souls but yes its more than possible as the Andii werent active on 7c were told.

Orchid- Im unsure I initially thought a child of Draconus? its hinted that Korlat might be a daughter of Draconus raping Sandalath though its never confirmed. I suppose its a read and find out. Also does this happen after TCG? I assume it must do as Karsa has left the city and there is Andii in KG.

Tyrant- Did not get/like this plotline too much. Might become better on a reread but the whole 'mask to the face' thing was very B-movie horror IMO. That being said It wasnt explained nor was the fact of why the Imass Miner was freed by Raest or how he met the First when surely he was crippled by Raest 300 000 years ago. Also why he suddenly said 'I can smell ice' then left the Azath', walked up to the human who smelt of ice, apparently, thinking he was Jaghut is never explained. As I suspected ICE claimed the Tyrant imperial age ended 2000 years ago as that fit with Baruks comment in GOTM though it wasnt really consistent with what we know of the city 'being born on a rumour' and such. How the Imperial Age that consisted of a D'stan led Genabackan confedaracy was concealed from scholars with magical ability is beyond me. More explanation on this would have been better and it was a very SW style ending.

Morn- Draconus probably. He was active throughout the book. Did Lady Envy feel out of character for anyone else? Anyway I thought it was him because of the hair and from what he said though Endest could be another one.

I was really annoyed by the Sceptre in this. Why havnt these been seen before. When Aragan went to get it from the box I thought we were going to see the KCCM longbones from GOTM which would have made more sense. Instead we see some other incredibly useful form of technology that hasnt been used in the main arc where it would have been incredibly helpful.

Humour was a strong point throughout

While I often defend ICE this felt like a second class TTH. TTH is my favorite book of the series so im probably bias and im sure this will be better on a reread but it didnt feel Malazan to me. Dare I say it there wasnt enough philosophy in it . Maybe it was too short I dont know but something about it.

This post has been edited by tiam: 22 January 2012 - 10:15 PM

[Messremb]

Spoiler

tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Orchid- Im unsure I initially thought a child of Draconus? its hinted that Korlat might be a daughter of Draconus raping Sandalath though its never confirmed. I suppose its a read and find out. Also does this happen after TCG? I assume it must do as Karsa has left the city and there is Andii in KG.

I was thinking much the same, although given breeding happens pretty much every which way perhaps Mother Dark and Tiam had a daughter?

The K'rul tomb and Tayschrenn bit wasn't really made clear - why were the mages so keen to clear the BBs out? Were they simply in the way of getting to the tomb? Perhaps the original body of the Tyrant was inside the tomb and the gradual weakening of K'rul meant he/she was less able to resist them than in previous generations?

T'renn immediately made me think of T'riss, I suspect he'll end up in a similar position.

Quote

I was really annoyed by the Sceptre in this. Why havnt these been seen before. When Aragan went to get it from the box I thought we were going to see the KCCM longbones from GOTM which would have made more sense. Instead we see some other incredibly useful form of technology that hasnt been used in the main arc where it would have been incredibly helpful.

My initial assumption was that it was the same device as in GotM. The physical descriptions are similar, the Sceptre could be someone else's take on the originals that Whiskeyjack/Dujek had.

[Urizen]

champ, on 22 January 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Now I've had time to digest this - imo - great new entry into the Malazan series, there are a couple of things that I've wondered about and wanted to discuss...

And yes, this will contain spoilers! So please, please, please don't read this thread if you haven't read this book already as it will RUIN your read! You've been warned!

Spoiler

Onto Orchid...
And just who is she...

Quote

'Child,' she called, 'we have been bereft, in mouring. For we have lost a Son of Darkness. Yet behold. We rejoice! For just as precious and rare are the Daughters of Tiam!'

Spoiler

Rake might not be her dad of course but the qoute seem to indicate it so my impression is that Orchid is the daughter of Rake and either Tiam or Silanah, since non of Rake's daughters by "regular" mothers are refered to as "Daughters of Tiam".

[tiam]

Messremb, on 22 January 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Spoiler

tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Orchid- Im unsure I initially thought a child of Draconus? its hinted that Korlat might be a daughter of Draconus raping Sandalath though its never confirmed. I suppose its a read and find out. Also does this happen after TCG? I assume it must do as Karsa has left the city and there is Andii in KG.

I was thinking much the same, although given breeding happens pretty much every which way perhaps Mother Dark and Tiam had a daughter?

The K'rul tomb and Tayschrenn bit wasn't really made clear - why were the mages so keen to clear the BBs out? Were they simply in the way of getting to the tomb? Perhaps the original body of the Tyrant was inside the tomb and the gradual weakening of K'rul meant he/she was less able to resist them than in previous generations?

T'renn immediately made me think of T'riss, I suspect he'll end up in a similar position.

Quote

I was really annoyed by the Sceptre in this. Why havnt these been seen before. When Aragan went to get it from the box I thought we were going to see the KCCM longbones from GOTM which would have made more sense. Instead we see some other incredibly useful form of technology that hasnt been used in the main arc where it would have been incredibly helpful.

My initial assumption was that it was the same device as in GotM. The physical descriptions are similar, the Sceptre could be someone else's take on the originals that Whiskeyjack/Dujek had.

Spoiler

Yes that was my initial reaction though as I say is Tay powerful enough? I mean Triss travelled with Osserc Rake and Brood whereas Tay isnt really on that level. Ofc his dip in the Vitr could have upped his game.

Initially I thought the same but its in the shape of the Imperial Sceptre. It was just a catch in with the title and seeemed a very useful device for it only just to turn up. The WJ one in GOTM was a KCCM longbone and atleast had some ancient credibility rather than a new one. Hardly a huge deal but still.

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

champ, on 22 January 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Now I've had time to digest this - imo - great new entry into the Malazan series, there are a couple of things that I've wondered about and wanted to discuss...

And yes, this will contain spoilers! So please, please, please don't read this thread if you haven't read this book already as it will RUIN your read! You've been warned!

Spoiler

Onto Orchid...
And just who is she...

Quote

'Child,' she called, 'we have been bereft, in mouring. For we have lost a Son of Darkness. Yet behold. We rejoice! For just as precious and rare are the Daughters of Tiam!'

Spoiler

Rake might not be her dad of course but the qoute seem to indicate it so my impression is that Orchid is the daughter of Rake and either Tiam or Silanah, since non of Rake's daughters by "regular" mothers are refered to as "Daughters of Tiam".

Spoiler

Rake and Silannah is a good a bet as any though who does that make Morn if not Draconus? As I mentioned its possible it was Endest Silann and this sort of fits as he was a baby sitter for the Rake-Envy kids so why not this one? Again more info wouldhave made this clearer.

[champ]

Spoiler

See, with regards to Tays, that was my initial reaction too, that he's been set up to take on a new roll within the deck and him been super powerful magic user, common sense would dictate that it is QoD... with us been told about how there are a limited number of "god places" then been shown Ardata and her situation explained, how she was displaced... but then I couldn't figure out why the QoD would want Kiska to help her be displaced?! Unless it's time for a change of guard...

I can only hope that it will be cleared up post tCG!

re: The Imperial Sceptre, I just presumed this was the same device that we had seen in GotM with a new casing designed to look like the sceptre, looks less inconspicuous - the sceptre - than carrying a great K'Chan bone around with you!

I think I was most looking forward to the Tyrant story and this disappointed me the most - reminds me of SW and the Stormriders, breezed over the details when we had been waiting since GotM for some light to be shed and all we really got was a bad guy that super-glued a mask to people - no name, no thorough explanation, I can understand the whole writing style - show and not tell - but surely it's not too much to ask for some information, the sad thing is that I cannot see it been readdressed with what books we have left to come out (unless SE/Karsa trilogy pay a visit)

I also remembered what I was wanting to bring up from yesterday - the Seguleh / First etc.

The tyrant gets called the First by Jan at one point - honorific? We learn of the First having a knobbled wood mask and then we also learn about the mask hidden in Moon Spawn... Did I read too fast and miss some information or wasn't this explained?

[Urizen]

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Messremb, on 22 January 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Spoiler

tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Orchid- Im unsure I initially thought a child of Draconus? its hinted that Korlat might be a daughter of Draconus raping Sandalath though its never confirmed. I suppose its a read and find out. Also does this happen after TCG? I assume it must do as Karsa has left the city and there is Andii in KG.

I was thinking much the same, although given breeding happens pretty much every which way perhaps Mother Dark and Tiam had a daughter?

The K'rul tomb and Tayschrenn bit wasn't really made clear - why were the mages so keen to clear the BBs out? Were they simply in the way of getting to the tomb? Perhaps the original body of the Tyrant was inside the tomb and the gradual weakening of K'rul meant he/she was less able to resist them than in previous generations?

T'renn immediately made me think of T'riss, I suspect he'll end up in a similar position.

Quote

I was really annoyed by the Sceptre in this. Why havnt these been seen before. When Aragan went to get it from the box I thought we were going to see the KCCM longbones from GOTM which would have made more sense. Instead we see some other incredibly useful form of technology that hasnt been used in the main arc where it would have been incredibly helpful.

My initial assumption was that it was the same device as in GotM. The physical descriptions are similar, the Sceptre could be someone else's take on the originals that Whiskeyjack/Dujek had.

Spoiler

Yes that was my initial reaction though as I say is Tay powerful enough? I mean Triss travelled with Osserc Rake and Brood whereas Tay isnt really on that level. Ofc his dip in the Vitr could have upped his game.

Initially I thought the same but its in the shape of the Imperial Sceptre. It was just a catch in with the title and seeemed a very useful device for it only just to turn up. The WJ one in GOTM was a KCCM longbone and atleast had some ancient credibility rather than a new one. Hardly a huge deal but still.

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

champ, on 22 January 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Now I've had time to digest this - imo - great new entry into the Malazan series, there are a couple of things that I've wondered about and wanted to discuss...

And yes, this will contain spoilers! So please, please, please don't read this thread if you haven't read this book already as it will RUIN your read! You've been warned!

Spoiler

Onto Orchid...
And just who is she...

Quote

'Child,' she called, 'we have been bereft, in mouring. For we have lost a Son of Darkness. Yet behold. We rejoice! For just as precious and rare are the Daughters of Tiam!'

Spoiler

Rake might not be her dad of course but the qoute seem to indicate it so my impression is that Orchid is the daughter of Rake and either Tiam or Silanah, since non of Rake's daughters by "regular" mothers are refered to as "Daughters of Tiam".

Spoiler

Rake and Silannah is a good a bet as any though who does that make Morn if not Draconus? As I mentioned its possible it was Endest Silann and this sort of fits as he was a baby sitter for the Rake-Envy kids so why not this one? Again more info wouldhave made this clearer.

Spoiler

I'd say it's moderately clear that Morn is Draconus as Morn, when he's starts to fade mentions that he's commited elswhere.

Quote

The hooded figure of dark wavered, translucent. " I am barely here at all, Orchid" he said, his voice hollow. "In truth I am very commited elsewhere."

This fits, sort of, with the timeline. At this point in time Draconus might of rubbing out Jade statues, stomping Barghast or killing off Kilimandros.

[tiam]

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Messremb, on 22 January 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Spoiler

tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Orchid- Im unsure I initially thought a child of Draconus? its hinted that Korlat might be a daughter of Draconus raping Sandalath though its never confirmed. I suppose its a read and find out. Also does this happen after TCG? I assume it must do as Karsa has left the city and there is Andii in KG.

I was thinking much the same, although given breeding happens pretty much every which way perhaps Mother Dark and Tiam had a daughter?

The K'rul tomb and Tayschrenn bit wasn't really made clear - why were the mages so keen to clear the BBs out? Were they simply in the way of getting to the tomb? Perhaps the original body of the Tyrant was inside the tomb and the gradual weakening of K'rul meant he/she was less able to resist them than in previous generations?

T'renn immediately made me think of T'riss, I suspect he'll end up in a similar position.

Quote

I was really annoyed by the Sceptre in this. Why havnt these been seen before. When Aragan went to get it from the box I thought we were going to see the KCCM longbones from GOTM which would have made more sense. Instead we see some other incredibly useful form of technology that hasnt been used in the main arc where it would have been incredibly helpful.

My initial assumption was that it was the same device as in GotM. The physical descriptions are similar, the Sceptre could be someone else's take on the originals that Whiskeyjack/Dujek had.

Spoiler

Yes that was my initial reaction though as I say is Tay powerful enough? I mean Triss travelled with Osserc Rake and Brood whereas Tay isnt really on that level. Ofc his dip in the Vitr could have upped his game.

Initially I thought the same but its in the shape of the Imperial Sceptre. It was just a catch in with the title and seeemed a very useful device for it only just to turn up. The WJ one in GOTM was a KCCM longbone and atleast had some ancient credibility rather than a new one. Hardly a huge deal but still.

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

champ, on 22 January 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Now I've had time to digest this - imo - great new entry into the Malazan series, there are a couple of things that I've wondered about and wanted to discuss...

And yes, this will contain spoilers! So please, please, please don't read this thread if you haven't read this book already as it will RUIN your read! You've been warned!

Spoiler

Onto Orchid...
And just who is she...

Quote

'Child,' she called, 'we have been bereft, in mouring. For we have lost a Son of Darkness. Yet behold. We rejoice! For just as precious and rare are the Daughters of Tiam!'

Spoiler

Rake might not be her dad of course but the qoute seem to indicate it so my impression is that Orchid is the daughter of Rake and either Tiam or Silanah, since non of Rake's daughters by "regular" mothers are refered to as "Daughters of Tiam".

Spoiler

Rake and Silannah is a good a bet as any though who does that make Morn if not Draconus? As I mentioned its possible it was Endest Silann and this sort of fits as he was a baby sitter for the Rake-Envy kids so why not this one? Again more info wouldhave made this clearer.

Spoiler

I'd say it's moderately clear that Morn is Draconus as Morn, when he's starts to fade mentions that he's commited elswhere.

Quote

The hooded figure of dark wavered, translucent. " I am barely here at all, Orchid" he said, his voice hollow. "In truth I am very commited elsewhere."

This fits, sort of, with the timeline. At this point in time Draconus might of rubbing out Jade statues, stomping Barghast or killing off Kilimandros.

Spoiler

Yes thats what made me think Draconus along with the hair. Its possible its Endest though mre likely Draconus. Theres just no link as hes only everb been mentioned as having 2 daughters. Unless she came from the same monastery place as Heuk, that high priest of Elder Night in ROTCG? Is it actually stated where her monastery was?

[Urizen]

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Messremb, on 22 January 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Spoiler

tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Orchid- Im unsure I initially thought a child of Draconus? its hinted that Korlat might be a daughter of Draconus raping Sandalath though its never confirmed. I suppose its a read and find out. Also does this happen after TCG? I assume it must do as Karsa has left the city and there is Andii in KG.

I was thinking much the same, although given breeding happens pretty much every which way perhaps Mother Dark and Tiam had a daughter?

The K'rul tomb and Tayschrenn bit wasn't really made clear - why were the mages so keen to clear the BBs out? Were they simply in the way of getting to the tomb? Perhaps the original body of the Tyrant was inside the tomb and the gradual weakening of K'rul meant he/she was less able to resist them than in previous generations?

T'renn immediately made me think of T'riss, I suspect he'll end up in a similar position.

Quote

I was really annoyed by the Sceptre in this. Why havnt these been seen before. When Aragan went to get it from the box I thought we were going to see the KCCM longbones from GOTM which would have made more sense. Instead we see some other incredibly useful form of technology that hasnt been used in the main arc where it would have been incredibly helpful.

My initial assumption was that it was the same device as in GotM. The physical descriptions are similar, the Sceptre could be someone else's take on the originals that Whiskeyjack/Dujek had.

Spoiler

Yes that was my initial reaction though as I say is Tay powerful enough? I mean Triss travelled with Osserc Rake and Brood whereas Tay isnt really on that level. Ofc his dip in the Vitr could have upped his game.

Initially I thought the same but its in the shape of the Imperial Sceptre. It was just a catch in with the title and seeemed a very useful device for it only just to turn up. The WJ one in GOTM was a KCCM longbone and atleast had some ancient credibility rather than a new one. Hardly a huge deal but still.

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

champ, on 22 January 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Now I've had time to digest this - imo - great new entry into the Malazan series, there are a couple of things that I've wondered about and wanted to discuss...

And yes, this will contain spoilers! So please, please, please don't read this thread if you haven't read this book already as it will RUIN your read! You've been warned!

Spoiler

Onto Orchid...
And just who is she...

Quote

'Child,' she called, 'we have been bereft, in mouring. For we have lost a Son of Darkness. Yet behold. We rejoice! For just as precious and rare are the Daughters of Tiam!'

Spoiler

Rake might not be her dad of course but the qoute seem to indicate it so my impression is that Orchid is the daughter of Rake and either Tiam or Silanah, since non of Rake's daughters by "regular" mothers are refered to as "Daughters of Tiam".

Spoiler

Rake and Silannah is a good a bet as any though who does that make Morn if not Draconus? As I mentioned its possible it was Endest Silann and this sort of fits as he was a baby sitter for the Rake-Envy kids so why not this one? Again more info wouldhave made this clearer.

Spoiler

I'd say it's moderately clear that Morn is Draconus as Morn, when he's starts to fade mentions that he's commited elswhere.

Quote

The hooded figure of dark wavered, translucent. " I am barely here at all, Orchid" he said, his voice hollow. "In truth I am very commited elsewhere."

This fits, sort of, with the timeline. At this point in time Draconus might of rubbing out Jade statues, stomping Barghast or killing off Kilimandros.

Spoiler

Yes thats what made me think Draconus along with the hair. Its possible its Endest though mre likely Draconus. Theres just no link as hes only everb been mentioned as having 2 daughters. Unless she came from the same monastery place as Heuk, that high priest of Elder Night in ROTCG? Is it actually stated where her monastery was?

Spoiler

It's doesn't have to be a link between Morn/Draconus and Orchid. It could be that he's just happy to meet a decent young Andi woman.
I believe Orchid talks about how the monastery is on a small island somewhere outside the northen Genebackis coast.

[tiam]

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Messremb, on 22 January 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Spoiler

tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Orchid- Im unsure I initially thought a child of Draconus? its hinted that Korlat might be a daughter of Draconus raping Sandalath though its never confirmed. I suppose its a read and find out. Also does this happen after TCG? I assume it must do as Karsa has left the city and there is Andii in KG.

I was thinking much the same, although given breeding happens pretty much every which way perhaps Mother Dark and Tiam had a daughter?

The K'rul tomb and Tayschrenn bit wasn't really made clear - why were the mages so keen to clear the BBs out? Were they simply in the way of getting to the tomb? Perhaps the original body of the Tyrant was inside the tomb and the gradual weakening of K'rul meant he/she was less able to resist them than in previous generations?

T'renn immediately made me think of T'riss, I suspect he'll end up in a similar position.

Quote

I was really annoyed by the Sceptre in this. Why havnt these been seen before. When Aragan went to get it from the box I thought we were going to see the KCCM longbones from GOTM which would have made more sense. Instead we see some other incredibly useful form of technology that hasnt been used in the main arc where it would have been incredibly helpful.

My initial assumption was that it was the same device as in GotM. The physical descriptions are similar, the Sceptre could be someone else's take on the originals that Whiskeyjack/Dujek had.

Spoiler

Yes that was my initial reaction though as I say is Tay powerful enough? I mean Triss travelled with Osserc Rake and Brood whereas Tay isnt really on that level. Ofc his dip in the Vitr could have upped his game.

Initially I thought the same but its in the shape of the Imperial Sceptre. It was just a catch in with the title and seeemed a very useful device for it only just to turn up. The WJ one in GOTM was a KCCM longbone and atleast had some ancient credibility rather than a new one. Hardly a huge deal but still.

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

champ, on 22 January 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Now I've had time to digest this - imo - great new entry into the Malazan series, there are a couple of things that I've wondered about and wanted to discuss...

And yes, this will contain spoilers! So please, please, please don't read this thread if you haven't read this book already as it will RUIN your read! You've been warned!

Spoiler

Onto Orchid...
And just who is she...

Quote

'Child,' she called, 'we have been bereft, in mouring. For we have lost a Son of Darkness. Yet behold. We rejoice! For just as precious and rare are the Daughters of Tiam!'

Spoiler

Rake might not be her dad of course but the qoute seem to indicate it so my impression is that Orchid is the daughter of Rake and either Tiam or Silanah, since non of Rake's daughters by "regular" mothers are refered to as "Daughters of Tiam".

Spoiler

Rake and Silannah is a good a bet as any though who does that make Morn if not Draconus? As I mentioned its possible it was Endest Silann and this sort of fits as he was a baby sitter for the Rake-Envy kids so why not this one? Again more info wouldhave made this clearer.

Spoiler

I'd say it's moderately clear that Morn is Draconus as Morn, when he's starts to fade mentions that he's commited elswhere.

Quote

The hooded figure of dark wavered, translucent. " I am barely here at all, Orchid" he said, his voice hollow. "In truth I am very commited elsewhere."

This fits, sort of, with the timeline. At this point in time Draconus might of rubbing out Jade statues, stomping Barghast or killing off Kilimandros.

Spoiler

Yes thats what made me think Draconus along with the hair. Its possible its Endest though mre likely Draconus. Theres just no link as hes only everb been mentioned as having 2 daughters. Unless she came from the same monastery place as Heuk, that high priest of Elder Night in ROTCG? Is it actually stated where her monastery was?

Spoiler

It's doesn't have to be a link between Morn/Draconus and Orchid. It could be that he's just happy to meet a decent young Andi woman.
I believe Orchid talks about how the monastery is on a small island somewhere outside the northen Genebackis coast.

Spoiler

True but id say there does have to be some link. Theres some form of Andii population in Northern Genabackis on an island or something. Unless Draconus is now magnanimous and simply want an Andii to get to the home of the Andii? Plausible I suppose given his character turnaround. Though how did she become soletaken eleint?

[champ]

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Messremb, on 22 January 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Spoiler

tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Orchid- Im unsure I initially thought a child of Draconus? its hinted that Korlat might be a daughter of Draconus raping Sandalath though its never confirmed. I suppose its a read and find out. Also does this happen after TCG? I assume it must do as Karsa has left the city and there is Andii in KG.

I was thinking much the same, although given breeding happens pretty much every which way perhaps Mother Dark and Tiam had a daughter?

The K'rul tomb and Tayschrenn bit wasn't really made clear - why were the mages so keen to clear the BBs out? Were they simply in the way of getting to the tomb? Perhaps the original body of the Tyrant was inside the tomb and the gradual weakening of K'rul meant he/she was less able to resist them than in previous generations?

T'renn immediately made me think of T'riss, I suspect he'll end up in a similar position.

Quote

I was really annoyed by the Sceptre in this. Why havnt these been seen before. When Aragan went to get it from the box I thought we were going to see the KCCM longbones from GOTM which would have made more sense. Instead we see some other incredibly useful form of technology that hasnt been used in the main arc where it would have been incredibly helpful.

My initial assumption was that it was the same device as in GotM. The physical descriptions are similar, the Sceptre could be someone else's take on the originals that Whiskeyjack/Dujek had.

Spoiler

Yes that was my initial reaction though as I say is Tay powerful enough? I mean Triss travelled with Osserc Rake and Brood whereas Tay isnt really on that level. Ofc his dip in the Vitr could have upped his game.

Initially I thought the same but its in the shape of the Imperial Sceptre. It was just a catch in with the title and seeemed a very useful device for it only just to turn up. The WJ one in GOTM was a KCCM longbone and atleast had some ancient credibility rather than a new one. Hardly a huge deal but still.

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

champ, on 22 January 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Now I've had time to digest this - imo - great new entry into the Malazan series, there are a couple of things that I've wondered about and wanted to discuss...

And yes, this will contain spoilers! So please, please, please don't read this thread if you haven't read this book already as it will RUIN your read! You've been warned!

Spoiler

Onto Orchid...
And just who is she...

Quote

'Child,' she called, 'we have been bereft, in mouring. For we have lost a Son of Darkness. Yet behold. We rejoice! For just as precious and rare are the Daughters of Tiam!'

Spoiler

Rake might not be her dad of course but the qoute seem to indicate it so my impression is that Orchid is the daughter of Rake and either Tiam or Silanah, since non of Rake's daughters by "regular" mothers are refered to as "Daughters of Tiam".

Spoiler

Rake and Silannah is a good a bet as any though who does that make Morn if not Draconus? As I mentioned its possible it was Endest Silann and this sort of fits as he was a baby sitter for the Rake-Envy kids so why not this one? Again more info wouldhave made this clearer.

Spoiler

I'd say it's moderately clear that Morn is Draconus as Morn, when he's starts to fade mentions that he's commited elswhere.

Quote

The hooded figure of dark wavered, translucent. " I am barely here at all, Orchid" he said, his voice hollow. "In truth I am very commited elsewhere."

This fits, sort of, with the timeline. At this point in time Draconus might of rubbing out Jade statues, stomping Barghast or killing off Kilimandros.

Spoiler

Yes thats what made me think Draconus along with the hair. Its possible its Endest though mre likely Draconus. Theres just no link as hes only everb been mentioned as having 2 daughters. Unless she came from the same monastery place as Heuk, that high priest of Elder Night in ROTCG? Is it actually stated where her monastery was?

Spoiler

It's doesn't have to be a link between Morn/Draconus and Orchid. It could be that he's just happy to meet a decent young Andi woman.
I believe Orchid talks about how the monastery is on a small island somewhere outside the northen Genebackis coast.

Spoiler

True but id say there does have to be some link. Theres some form of Andii population in Northern Genabackis on an island or something. Unless Draconus is now magnanimous and simply want an Andii to get to the home of the Andii? Plausible I suppose given his character turnaround. Though how did she become soletaken eleint?

Spoiler

I can see a large turn around with Draconus which makes it very plausible, especially when he learns what Rake has done, plus I reckon Orchid may have been born that way - which makes it even more interesting when she is called the daughter of Tiam. Daughter of pure blood elient or soletaken? Could be Draconus, Rake, Silannah, anyone really but for good speculation, I would like to think one of them three! We've seen conclaves of Andii before - Clip... I wonder of Toppers parents - do we ever learn? He's part Andii so there must be some Andii kicking about somewhere!

This post has been edited by champ: 23 January 2012 - 09:11 PM

[Urizen]

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

tiam, on 23 January 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

Messremb, on 22 January 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Spoiler

tiam, on 22 January 2012 - 10:09 PM, said:

Orchid- Im unsure I initially thought a child of Draconus? its hinted that Korlat might be a daughter of Draconus raping Sandalath though its never confirmed. I suppose its a read and find out. Also does this happen after TCG? I assume it must do as Karsa has left the city and there is Andii in KG.

I was thinking much the same, although given breeding happens pretty much every which way perhaps Mother Dark and Tiam had a daughter?

The K'rul tomb and Tayschrenn bit wasn't really made clear - why were the mages so keen to clear the BBs out? Were they simply in the way of getting to the tomb? Perhaps the original body of the Tyrant was inside the tomb and the gradual weakening of K'rul meant he/she was less able to resist them than in previous generations?

T'renn immediately made me think of T'riss, I suspect he'll end up in a similar position.

Quote

I was really annoyed by the Sceptre in this. Why havnt these been seen before. When Aragan went to get it from the box I thought we were going to see the KCCM longbones from GOTM which would have made more sense. Instead we see some other incredibly useful form of technology that hasnt been used in the main arc where it would have been incredibly helpful.

My initial assumption was that it was the same device as in GotM. The physical descriptions are similar, the Sceptre could be someone else's take on the originals that Whiskeyjack/Dujek had.

Spoiler

Yes that was my initial reaction though as I say is Tay powerful enough? I mean Triss travelled with Osserc Rake and Brood whereas Tay isnt really on that level. Ofc his dip in the Vitr could have upped his game.

Initially I thought the same but its in the shape of the Imperial Sceptre. It was just a catch in with the title and seeemed a very useful device for it only just to turn up. The WJ one in GOTM was a KCCM longbone and atleast had some ancient credibility rather than a new one. Hardly a huge deal but still.

Urizen, on 23 January 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

champ, on 22 January 2012 - 09:34 PM, said:

Now I've had time to digest this - imo - great new entry into the Malazan series, there are a couple of things that I've wondered about and wanted to discuss...

And yes, this will contain spoilers! So please, please, please don't read this thread if you haven't read this book already as it will RUIN your read! You've been warned!

Spoiler

Onto Orchid...
And just who is she...

Quote

'Child,' she called, 'we have been bereft, in mouring. For we have lost a Son of Darkness. Yet behold. We rejoice! For just as precious and rare are the Daughters of Tiam!'

Spoiler

Rake might not be her dad of course but the qoute seem to indicate it so my impression is that Orchid is the daughter of Rake and either Tiam or Silanah, since non of Rake's daughters by "regular" mothers are refered to as "Daughters of Tiam".

Spoiler

Rake and Silannah is a good a bet as any though who does that make Morn if not Draconus? As I mentioned its possible it was Endest Silann and this sort of fits as he was a baby sitter for the Rake-Envy kids so why not this one? Again more info wouldhave made this clearer.

Spoiler

I'd say it's moderately clear that Morn is Draconus as Morn, when he's starts to fade mentions that he's commited elswhere.

Quote

The hooded figure of dark wavered, translucent. " I am barely here at all, Orchid" he said, his voice hollow. "In truth I am very commited elsewhere."

This fits, sort of, with the timeline. At this point in time Draconus might of rubbing out Jade statues, stomping Barghast or killing off Kilimandros.

Spoiler

Yes thats what made me think Draconus along with the hair. Its possible its Endest though mre likely Draconus. Theres just no link as hes only everb been mentioned as having 2 daughters. Unless she came from the same monastery place as Heuk, that high priest of Elder Night in ROTCG? Is it actually stated where her monastery was?

Spoiler

It's doesn't have to be a link between Morn/Draconus and Orchid. It could be that he's just happy to meet a decent young Andi woman.
I believe Orchid talks about how the monastery is on a small island somewhere outside the northen Genebackis coast.

Spoiler

True but id say there does have to be some link. Theres some form of Andii population in Northern Genabackis on an island or something. Unless Draconus is now magnanimous and simply want an Andii to get to the home of the Andii? Plausible I suppose given his character turnaround. Though how did she become soletaken eleint?

Spoiler

By being Rake and Silanah's love-child perhaps.
A more manipulative explanation as to why he approaches Orchid could be that she's been raised in Elder Night temple and Draconus sees her as potetial high priestess/destriant. As an added bonus she's a soletaken Eleint which gives her some serious power. Which in turn would aid Draconus in enforcing his agenda further down the line on the world.

[Werthead]

This thread has four SPOILER warnings in the title. Are the spoiler boxes really necessary?

[tiam]

Werthead, on 23 January 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

This thread has four SPOILER warnings in the title. Are the spoiler boxes really necessary?

I accidentally stumbled into a ROTCG thread when that was new and had Laseens death ruined for me so im easy either way

[Urizen]

Werthead, on 23 January 2012 - 11:45 PM, said:

This thread has four SPOILER warnings in the title. Are the spoiler boxes really necessary?

Personally I don't ses them as necessary but since spoiler boxes were in use in begining of the thread I just go along with it.

[Imperial Historian]

The book is officially out, as long as there are no spoilers in the title, there is no need to use spoiler tags. I'd keep the spoiler warning in the title for the first couple of weeks though.

[Silk]

so then as we don't need the spoiler boxes ;o).... how about Tay is actually being set up to take the place of K'rul in the new gods pantheon that is fast developing.

[champ]

Silk, on 26 January 2012 - 12:11 PM, said:

so then as we don't need the spoiler boxes ;o).... how about Tay is actually being set up to take the place of K'rul in the new gods pantheon that is fast developing.

It's this line that has me intrigued with Tays...

Quote

'Nay! Kruppe must be Kruppe! But what of... the other... may Kruppe ask?'
'Still with me. I have much to learn yet. These things can take centuries.'

Almost like he's taken into himself something/someone... ala QB!

I can see a full change of guard coming soon so that could well be possible...

[Silk]

This is what draw my assumtion to him taking on K'rul's roll as in th book there was also a statement of the fact that up until that point no-one had been strong enough to try.... this along with Tay's gettign blessings from those others who have been instrumental in his growth... such as Drek etc..... after all the way I see it is that this is all about how the pantheon changes from the ancient beliefs/beings to a more human front....

[polishgenius]

champ, on 26 January 2012 - 12:21 PM, said:

It's this line that has me intrigued with Tays...

Quote

'Nay! Kruppe must be Kruppe! But what of... the other... may Kruppe ask?'
'Still with me. I have much to learn yet. These things can take centuries.'

Almost like he's taken into himself something/someone... ala QB!

I'm fairly sure that line refers to Thenaj.