[Aptorian]

Somebody asked if a US Marine battalion could win against the entire might of the Roman Empire in an AskReddit thread. Then another guy just started writing. Haven't read it all yet, but it is awesome.

LINK

[amphibian]

It's not well written, but could be fun in a writing exercise sort of way. Ah, I'll pass on reading any further.

[Dolmen 2.0]

whoa. pretty intense. Prufrock has some Wicked talent, needs some refining but imagination wise quite clever. His details were spot on. Must have some kinda army background or something equally clued up.

I actually would wonder the same thing in Erikson context. how do you think US marines would fair against an equally matched squad of malaz heavies, sappers and malaz style marines with oh maybe a 12 cadre of mages, perhaps 1 QB in their midst...

Waits in vain for sudden genius.

This post has been edited by Dolmen: 01 September 2011 - 05:14 AM

[Ulrik]

amphibian, on 01 September 2011 - 04:59 AM, said:

It's not well written, but could be fun in a writing exercise sort of way. Ah, I'll pass on reading any further.

Well, he lacks light hand in description or dialogues, but he has brilliant ideas "what wouldnt work and other fakin problems"

[Silencer]

Dolmen, on 01 September 2011 - 05:13 AM, said:

I actually would wonder the same thing in Erikson context. how do you think US marines would fair against an equally matched squad of malaz heavies, sappers and malaz style marines with oh maybe a 12 cadre of mages, perhaps 1 QB in their midst...

The US Marines lose. Automatically. Never mind the Cadre, that one man would fuck them up good.

[Gothos]

On a different note, how would the Malazan Empire fare against the Roman Empire? (obviously, magic and munitions would have to be eliminated or limited for this to have any meaning)

[Primateus]

Yeah...The Romans would pretty much be annihilated. There's one guy in that thread who says that the romans were smart people...Oh, so 21st century soldiers are idiots? Their officers are morons who doesn't understand anything?

Bullshit. There's only one way that the Romans could win, and that's if the marines had no ammunition. Which I think we should call attrition.


Oh, right, yeah, one more reason. The marines get so fucked up because they've been transported 2000 years into the past and all go crazy and kill eachother (or whatever crazy people do)

But in a stand-up fight? No way in hell the Romans stand even a slight chance.

[Tapper]

Depends on how much ammo those marines carry, I guess, and on what the battlefield is. If it is a plain that fits, say, 30 4k man legions and the romans get to surround the marines from within charging distance before the marines get to shoot, well, you might see the marines wiped out.

But in a campaign that allows maneuver and ambushes, seeing how few British infantrymen managed to overcome hordes of indeginous people with far less fire power than a battallion marines, the chance that any melee oriented army of the past gets close enough to engage in melee combat without breaking is minimal.
It is not for nothing that combat has shifted away from melee to ranged.

Marines versus Imperial Guard, however...

[Primateus]

Tapper, on 01 September 2011 - 10:19 AM, said:

Marines versus Imperial Guard, however...

This...

Spoiler

what's that little marine? You have a M1 Abrams battletank? That's nice, all I have is a...

[Aptorian]

I think you're going about this all wrong. The Marines would be doomed. They can't possibly win.

Yes, if at first contact between the Americans and the Romans Augustus decided to just march a legion at the marines, then logically the legions would get mowed down before they came within striking distance.

But that's first contact. This is a battle between the Marine unit and the entire Roman empire. At around the time of Augustus they had how many legions? 20? More? Plus all the auxiliary units they can pay or muscle in to marching on the marines. They had tens of thousands of veteran soldiers. No matter how demonic or magical the Marines weaponry might seem, I don't think these guys would be running scared.

In my opinion it would never be a question of brute force. Augustus or some aid would see the futility in attacking these Marines head on. They would wear them down instead. They'd lead night attacks against them, harry them by day with false charges, sneak attacks with archers, do what ever they could to stress them out and tire them. If they move they make small hit and run attacks at their flanks, hit their baggage train if a Marine unit has such a thing, etc. Deny them food. Deny them water. Deny them rest. These kinds of tactics were as well known in the days of the Romans as they are today.

The Marines would give the Romans a bloody nose at first contact. From then on they would be the tired Lion getting stalked by pack of hungry hyenas.

This post has been edited by Aptorian Sharktopus: 01 September 2011 - 02:08 PM

[Primateus]

What, you don't think the marines could do that to the romans aswell?

[acesn8s]

I copied the Wiki entry for a MEU:

A typical MEU has approximately 2,200 Marines and sailors. It is equipped with:
4 M1A1 main battle tanks
7 to 16 Light Armored Vehicles
15 Amphibious Assault Vehicles
6 155mm howitzer: M198 or M777s
8 M252 81mm mortars
8 BGM-71 Tube Launched, Optically Tracked, Wire Guided (TOW) missile weapon systems
8 FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank missiles
4 to 6 AH-1W SuperCobra attack helicopterss
3 UH-1N Twin Huey utility helicopters
12 CH-46E Sea Knight medium lift assault helicopters
4 CH-53E Super Stallion heavy lift assault helicopters
6 AV-8B Harrier jets
2 KC-130 Hercules re-fueler/transport aircraft Note: usually maintained in the continental United States
2 Reverse Osmosis Water Purification Units
1 LMT 3000 water purification unit
4 Tractors, Rubber Tire, Articulated Steering
2 TX51-19M Rough Terrain Forklifts
3 D7 bulldozers
1 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement dump truck
4 Mk48 Logistics Vehicle Systems
7 500 gallon water containers
63 Humvees
30 Medium Tactical Vehicle Replacement trucks

Even without the aircraft, I think the Humvees, mortars, and artillery would be enough break the legions.

With a little bit of showmanship a clever officer could arrange for a demonstration of his divine powers via an artillery strike.

Quote

The M777 is also often combined with the new Excalibur GPS-guided munition, which allows accurate fire at a range of up to 40 km. This almost doubles the area covered by a single battery to about 5,000 km2. Testing at the Yuma Proving Ground by the US Army placed 13 of 14 Excalibur rounds, fired from up to 24 km away, within 10 meters of their target, suggesting a circular error probable of about 5 meters.

[Obdigore]

The Marines would get slaughtered once they ran out of ammunition.

They would damage the Roman Military Might so much that they would fall much earlier, either torn apart by internal pressures or external forces.

Of course, they would never face off except after a first possible encounter. The Marines would either carve out a province and become a tributary of Rome, or straight up join the Romans. The leap in Tech, especially if the Battalion HQ and associated equipment/training guides was transported as well, might have been enough to stay off the fall of the empire for hundreds more years. Especially if the Marine Commander (Colonel or Lt. Colonel) were given a high ranking advising post to the emperor, essentially elevating him into the 'nobility' of Rome.

Imagine where we would be now if one of the middle generations of Rome was trained how to use/make computers, gas powered engines, modern rifles? Most Battalion HQ's are going to have history books as well. Imagine what could be changed if the Romans had access to see how/when they fell, which of their tactics were most effective and how modern tactics would work?

Or hell, maybe the Marines would head out, take over Spain/Portugul, build some boats and sail to 'the new world'?

Edit - @A&8 - It isn't a MEU. It is a Battalion. Huge difference.

This post has been edited by Dutch Flag: 01 September 2011 - 02:29 PM

[Aptorian]

Primateus, on 01 September 2011 - 02:13 PM, said:

What, you don't think the marines could do that to the romans aswell?

Oh I am pretty sure that their arsenal of vehicles and weaponry would fuck the Romans up well and good for a while. But we're talking about 2000 men against what possibly a 100,000? (Well, okay, this is not logistically feasible, what with the borders that need to be maintained and what not, but) They are in the home land of the Romans. How many roman soldiers were stationed in Italy at the time of Augustus? I can't recall. Something like 3 legions around Rome? One or two down south? More up north? I don't think Augustus could field more than some 4-7 legions within a month. But what are the Marines going to do? Unless they moved to actually take the Roman capital and take over they would be facing a running battle from Rome to Persia or the Gaulic regions. And once they reach these areas then they have a whole new beehive of superstitious pissed off peoples to fight with.
If I were the Marine captain I think I would be looking for a small coastal city with defendable walls. Then you can use the helicopters or boats to forage off the other coasts in the medditerinian.

But like Dutch Flag says, unless they plan on making friends, finding another continent might be a good idea.

(EDIT: I am waiting for somebody like Cougar to come in and dump an educated estimate on the Marines chances against a Roman Empire)

This post has been edited by Aptorian Sharktopus: 01 September 2011 - 03:27 PM

[majomull]

There are plenty of movies and books that deal with this kind of thing- here are a couple that others may find interesting.
"The Final Countdown"- USS NImitz aircraft carrier is transported back in time to Dec 6th 1941. F-14s vs Zeros.
"G.I. Samurai"- A pretty obscure Japanese movie from the late 70's. Modern army troops go back in time and fight samurai.

[Dolmen 2.0]

it all relies on the marine battalions orders. I recall their goal being the take out of augustus. Since this is their mission id assume they'd need to adopt an aggressive stance. As a military marine commander i'd opt to split forces into four. First a flash attack unit, with high mobility units on the ground roving around the country side harrying farmlands, towns etc. Mobilty would be high and numbers would be low.

Then i'd have infiltration units with air support dropped into defensible villas immediately around rome. This crew would also run foul tactics, muddying aquaducts and controlling high mountain water sources. This is a difficult ask for infantry but any force too overwhelming for a unit would lead to quick extraction and re-deployment. These guys would make life in Rome feel like hell.

Then i'd have a knuckle squad with heavy armour tanks devastating any fielded army on the move. Lastly as apt suggests, a core unit would be holed up in an easily defensible place, close to water and clear of trees for good visibility. Raided stores can be stocked here and deployed elsewhere. The best Tactic would be a hold on resources. Hiding chopper mobility and coaxing an army onto the field early, possibly encourage them to attempt retaking a few towns or buildings that the mobility squad took over.

Once enough men are drawn away from Rome city, an infiltration unit could take augustus in a second. Objective wise marines win.

This post has been edited by Dolmen: 02 September 2011 - 09:19 AM

[Aptorian]

A helicopter with a mounted gun could take Augustus as well, just saying.

This post has been edited by Aptorian Sharktopus: 01 September 2011 - 06:15 PM

[Ulrik]

Ehm, there is one big problem. Fuel. I believe they would be able to do reconnasaince, crush one, maybe two legions...and it would be out of fuel, ammunition and probably totally disoriented. Many systems use GPS navigating system with ablitiy of optical targeting - but eating batteries. I would bet on Romans...very carefuly, but marines are without its base tokens of power just bunch of guys with knifes. So for my opinion - HUGE losses on Roman side, but in the end, US COmmander walking in chains in front of roman citizens:)

[Dolmen 2.0]

yeah but i'd imagine any army teleported back in time would carry enough fuel for an empire wide raid. Also passive systems could be prepared to help run battery operated units. If we keep in mind that smaller all terrain quad bikes are still miles ahead of roman tech you could cause heavy flanking damage on any roman formation for ridiculously low fuel costs. Lets also not forget snipers. Roman Command structures would crumble with six or seven well taken shots.

[acesn8s]

Dolmen, on 01 September 2011 - 07:23 PM, said:

yeah but i'd imagine any army teleported back in time would carry enough fuel for an empire wide raid. Also passive systems could be prepared to help run battery operated units. If we keep in mind that smaller all terrain quad bikes are still miles ahead of roman tech you could cause heavy flanking damage on any roman formation for ridiculously low fuel costs. Lets also not forget snipers. Roman Command structures would crumble with six or seven well taken shots.

Followed up by a few mortar rounds into those densely packed formations and some claymores for when they finally closed in. I would think the shock and awe would break the Romans.

Now, if the game is all the legions are available and fight on regardless of casualties and lack of officers (due to sniper fire), I would imagine eventually the legions would win through attrition.