[Sir Thursday]

Mentalist, on 06 September 2011 - 02:10 PM, said:

We need to continue our development.

what does the collective think of b6?

I guess with the idea of developing the bishop to a6? Not a huge fan, myself. After white plays b3 it'll be pretty useless there, plus it blocks in the diagonal for the queen to come to b6 or a5 and weakens the c6-b7 pawn chain opposing the bishop on the long diagonal. On the plus side, it would keep the lines open for our dark-squared bishop, but not sure how useful that would be.

Tapper's d6 idea seems the most solid to me. As he points out, it gives us some nice options on the kingside. Also, there's the potential to end up with a Stonewall type structure in the centre (if white plays d5 and we respond with c5) which is very solid and negates the fianchettoed bishop quite considerably. It also allows us to play Qb6 without too much of a problem, as white can no longer follow up d5 with d6. The clean lines for the Queen should allow us to complete development reasonably smoothly.

Couple of slightly wilder suggestions:

-Qa5: Develops the queen to facilitate castling, and also pins the Knight on c3. We could consider playing Bb4 later (dependent on when we end up playing d6) to add to the pressure (and a timely exd4 could become quite irritating as well).

-Ng4: Not a development move, but it further harasses White's dark-squared bishop. If we can kick it from e3, then we could play Qb6 as planned before. Would probably have to look into the repercussions if white decides to ignore the threat and castles instead...the open file that manoeuvre creates could be very dangerous.


ST

[Use Of Weapons]

So is someone going to make a move?

[Sir Thursday]

Maybe the Mafia game is distracting people. I'm hoping someone else will show up to make a move at some point - it's against the rules for me to play on...


ST

[Mentalist]

I don't think i'm allowed to move either.

[Tapper]

d6.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 09 September 2011 - 09:35 AM

[Use Of Weapons]

I think you'd have been better advised to play d5, immediately challenging my central dominance and blowing the game wide open. d6 is a more defensive move, IMO, and you've got to start trying to take the initiative back.

Anyway, my response is to wheel out the big guns. Step forward Mrs King!

Qd2.


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[Obdigore]

Knight F6 -> G4.

[Use Of Weapons]

Ah, Mr. Flag. I've been expecting you. *strokes cat*

c5.

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My thinking is thuslywise: I don't feel particularly threatened by the knight on g4, as any capture would be immediately recaptured. Nxe3 would of course mean I can't proceed with my nefarious Bxh6 plan, but that's not much of a loss. So c5, opening up the centre (eventually) rather than giving that partial stonewall which IMO would benefit you rather more than me. One of us will either capture on e5 or d4, or possibly play d5, all of which options will open that e file for the Queens. In fact, should you play Nxe3, I'd be tempted to recapture using the pawn on f, which would open the f file for a castled rook.

Eventually, if the knight doesn't move off g4, I'll have to play either h3 or Bh3.

[Obdigore]

Our next move should be B E7 -> G5, imo.

[Sir Thursday]

Dutch Flag, on 09 September 2011 - 11:58 AM, said:

Our next move should be B E7 -> G5, imo.

Ah, see I was thinking it might work better if we take the Bishop on e3 first. With the bishop out of the way, we can then play Bg5, attacking the Queen. and gaining tempo. I think if we play it carefully we can get an advantage out of the open centre as well...

ST

[Use Of Weapons]

I think I see what DF is planning: If 12. ... Bg5 is followed by 13. Bxg5, then recapturing with the pawn 13. ... hxg5 leaves you with both knight and rook attacking my pawn on h2, and the knight on g4 could take f2 and threaten the rook, forcing me to capture with the king and preventing castling behind the fianchetto. Or it could take the pawn on h2 for no loss of material (protected by the rook).

[Mentalist]

Sir Thursday, on 09 September 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

Dutch Flag, on 09 September 2011 - 11:58 AM, said:

Our next move should be B E7 -> G5, imo.

Ah, see I was thinking it might work better if we take the Bishop on e3 first. With the bishop out of the way, we can then play Bg5, attacking the Queen. and gaining tempo. I think if we play it carefully we can get an advantage out of the open centre as well...

ST

problem with that, UoW can recapture with the f pawn, and then Bg5 wont be a serious threat.

[Sir Thursday]

Mentalist, on 09 September 2011 - 09:10 PM, said:

Sir Thursday, on 09 September 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

Dutch Flag, on 09 September 2011 - 11:58 AM, said:

Our next move should be B E7 -> G5, imo.

Ah, see I was thinking it might work better if we take the Bishop on e3 first. With the bishop out of the way, we can then play Bg5, attacking the Queen. and gaining tempo. I think if we play it carefully we can get an advantage out of the open centre as well...

ST

problem with that, UoW can recapture with the f pawn, and then Bg5 wont be a serious threat.

Ah, but then we have other resources at our disposal . dxc5 looks strong in that position - he can't recapture or he'll end up with a King stuck in the middle after Qxe3 Kxe3. IMO, c5 was a pretty weak move in combination with Qd2. White has got to keep his Queen nice and protected if he's going to keep it on a d-file he's allowing to be opened.

UseOfWeapons, on 09 September 2011 - 07:15 PM, said:

I think I see what DF is planning: If 12. ... Bg5 is followed by 13. Bxg5, then recapturing with the pawn 13. ... hxg5 leaves you with both knight and rook attacking my pawn on h2, and the knight on g4 could take f2 and threaten the rook, forcing me to capture with the king and preventing castling behind the fianchetto. Or it could take the pawn on h2 for no loss of material (protected by the rook).

Except we wouldn't want to take on h2 with the Knight because it pins the Knight to the Rook . But taking with the Rook is an option - blasts open the Kingside (though that's not that important since you can just castle queenside). Not sure whether you'd play Bxg5 in that position, so I'd have to question the line. But even without that I still think the bishop on g5 would be useful. I just think it would be more useful if we clear out the Bishop on e3 first.

ST

This post has been edited by Sir Thursday: 10 September 2011 - 12:04 AM

[Sir Thursday]

To keep things moving, I'm going to go ahead and play 12...Nxe3

[Mentalist]

I don't think a queen exchange is such a big threat to Uow. we can't really capitalize on it by playing something like 0-0-0+, since our bishop is still undeveloped.

[Use Of Weapons]

OK, I'm going to play a move which I still have some doubts over, but which could potentially be a match winner.

fxe3


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[Tapper]

UseOfWeapons, on 09 September 2011 - 11:19 AM, said:

I think you'd have been better advised to play d5, immediately challenging my central dominance and blowing the game wide open. d6 is a more defensive move, IMO, and you've got to start trying to take the initiative back.

I'd have preferred that personally, but erred on the side of caution - I think a few moves before, Ment was quite negative about it. For an offensive or a sacrifice, you need agreement which is easier for the individual than for a group .


As for your last move: why not Nc3?

Anyway, I see an option for a Queen exchange through

13. ...d6xc5,
14. d4xe5, Qd8xQd2 +

but while I'm not overly attached to the queen and would consider a swap myself a good deal usually, in your current position, even if you had to go

15. Ke1 x Qd2 and thereby sacrifice your chance to castle,

you'd link rooks and we'd still have a cluttered back line and a broken up centre. Instead, I'd much rather play Bc8-e6.

Be7-g5 might be a good move for us on first sight, but no matter how I play it through, a sacrifice of Ng6-h4 doesn't pay off for us if executed quickly and I think your pressure will be too big in a few moves to set it up a proper queen attack on your kingside.

This post has been edited by Tapper: 12 September 2011 - 10:50 AM

[Mentalist]

I agree. Queen swap doesn't hurt white. in fact, after Kc2, and Ra-d1, white would be sitting pretty comfortable, whi. le black'd still be plagued by development issues.

UoW last move is good for us in that it practically locks his queen on the queenside.

I'd suggest playing Be6 right now, with the idea of 0-0-0 in the future, and then lauching a pawn push on the kingside.

[Sir Thursday]

I can see your point, Tapper and Ment. Let me make a case for dxc5 anyway:

- Let's say we go down the 13...dxc5, 14.dxc5 Qxd2 15.Kxd2 route. After 15...Be6 16.Rad1 0-0-0+ 17. Kc1, we've both effectively castled Queenside. However, White has spent 3 moves castling to our one. In addition, we can immediately recapture the pawn on c5 with our bishop to level up material. If we play 13...Be6, then White castles queenside immediately and we still need to move the Queen before we can complete development. In effect, we are two tempi down development-wise on where we are if we trade off the queens.

- After 13...dxc5 14.dxc5, White's pawn structure is a mess. The doubled e-pawns are atrocious and the pawn on c5 is weak - we are threatening to take it immediately with the Bishop on e7, but even if we decide against that, white is going to have to push b4 to defend it and that will leave his King vulnerable. These structural weaknesses pretty much negate White's pawn advantage - we should be able to pick off one or more of these at some point and even up the material. On the other hand, playing ...Be6 means that White gets to keep his nice pawn structure. He has plenty of options to ensure that it doesn't get shredded.

- dxc5 forces White to leave his King on the queenside, which is comparatively open. This is definitely preferable to allowing the King to hide on the kingside, where it will be well protected behind the fianchettoed bishop. Although I suppose you could argue that the threat of dxc5 prevents White from castling Kingside at the moment anyway. But then White might try cxd6 after ...Be6, which would negate that threat.

Long story short, the line: 13...dxc5, 14.dxc5 Qxd2 15.Kxd2 Be6 16.Rad1 0-0-0+ 17.Kc1 Bxc5 puts us back level on material and having completed development, while White is left with isolated doubled pawns. On the other hand, the alternative you're proposing leaves us behind on development and still a pawn down. We'd be spending the rest of the game trying to catch up while White attacks down the f-file.

That's how I see it, anyway .

ST


EDIT: added a third point.

This post has been edited by Sir Thursday: 12 September 2011 - 07:00 PM

[Mentalist]

hmm,
I see what yoy are saying, up to Be6.


I need to see if white has a viable alternative to Rad1.