[Aptorian]

Jesus had angels whispering in his ear or something, he knew what was going to happen and how he was supposed to die from the get go. That is the reason why he loved Judas as much as the rest of the disciples. He knew Judas, he knew his heart and he knew that Judas must play the role for his Fathers scheme to come to fruition.

Similarly, Kelanved and Dancer surely understood Surly's ambition. As we see in NoK, the ambush in the old keep was as much one of their own design as it was Surly's. They came to die so that they could ascend.

[HiddenOne]

Why can't I see this work? I must needs view an interesting painting.

[Black Winged Lord]

Wasn't whiskeyjack still dujeks (maybe not direct) superior right up until surly took the throne and he got busted down the ranks?
Also with the fact that he sparred 1v1 with dassem, wouldn't this make it more likely that WJ would be there than Dujek?

Actually as per GoM, Whiskeyjack was in direct command of dujek, cause he ordered him into the mouse.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Black Winged Lord, on 21 September 2011 - 04:49 AM, said:

Wasn't whiskeyjack still dujeks (maybe not direct) superior right up until surly took the throne and he got busted down the ranks?
Also with the fact that he sparred 1v1 with dassem, wouldn't this make it more likely that WJ would be there than Dujek?

Actually as per GoM, Whiskeyjack was in direct command of dujek, cause he ordered him into the mouse.

because whiskeyjack, though one of the best men that the empire ever had, was sadly not of the family. dujek was a boy when the family formed, using the deadhouse as a base. the deadhouse residency changed them all, and they all lived a hundred years building the empire. for most of those years, WJ would have been merely a twinkle in some dudes eye.

WJ was his superior in the command chain, and a better swordsman, but dujek was around since chapter one

[Abyss]

can't see it. evil little red x, oh, how you taunt me...

[Dolmen 2.0]

Abyss, on 22 September 2011 - 04:10 AM, said:

can't see it. evil little red x, oh, how you taunt me...

Had the same problem...

try a different browser. Chrome seems to work fine for me.

[T'renn]

Just a quick question, Corporal Nobbs, how far along are you

[Corporal Nobbs]

Been away for 3 weeks so not much further. I've done a little on their poses but that's it. I've got a couple of calendar pics to do first, then I'll get back to this.
Hoping to finish before the end of the year, I've started another sculpture among other things, so I may be distracted by that.

[Gutkrusha]

I had thought they Whiskeyjack was a member of the Old Guard.. I can remember someone saying that.. I just have no idea which book I read it in. Although I could be horribly wrong.

[worry]

He's not, he's not nearly that old.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Gutkrusha, on 19 October 2011 - 12:22 AM, said:

I had thought they Whiskeyjack was a member of the Old Guard.. I can remember someone saying that.. I just have no idea which book I read it in. Although I could be horribly wrong.

well, see, he is old guard. but so are fiddler, gesler, stormy, temper, braven tooth etc. etc.

old guard are not the same as 'the family', and WJ is old guard, but not 'the family'.

kind of a slight distinction, so it's easy to see how confusion would arise here, as nobbs is making a portrait of 'the family', yet has titled it, Old Guard Last Supper, which i didn't realize in my last post, or i would have pointed out the error there.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 19 October 2011 - 01:30 AM

[worry]

Oh yah, good point. That distinction is valid.

[tiam]

Sinisdar Toste, on 19 October 2011 - 01:28 AM, said:

Gutkrusha, on 19 October 2011 - 12:22 AM, said:

I had thought they Whiskeyjack was a member of the Old Guard.. I can remember someone saying that.. I just have no idea which book I read it in. Although I could be horribly wrong.

well, see, he is old guard. but so are fiddler, gesler, stormy, temper, braven tooth etc. etc.

old guard are not the same as 'the family', and WJ is old guard, but not 'the family'.

kind of a slight distinction, so it's easy to see how confusion would arise here, as nobbs is making a portrait of 'the family', yet has titled it, Old Guard Last Supper, which i didn't realize in my last post, or i would have pointed out the error there.

HOC MMPB p.296 gives a list of the 'family'. As you say WJ is Old Guard but not the family in a similar way to Choss. Yet Duiker is part of the family, yet we very rarely see any of his memories relate to this other than slightly railing against Laseen for killing his comrades.

[Sinisdar Toste]

tiam, on 19 October 2011 - 10:06 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 19 October 2011 - 01:28 AM, said:

Gutkrusha, on 19 October 2011 - 12:22 AM, said:

I had thought they Whiskeyjack was a member of the Old Guard.. I can remember someone saying that.. I just have no idea which book I read it in. Although I could be horribly wrong.

well, see, he is old guard. but so are fiddler, gesler, stormy, temper, braven tooth etc. etc.

old guard are not the same as 'the family', and WJ is old guard, but not 'the family'.

kind of a slight distinction, so it's easy to see how confusion would arise here, as nobbs is making a portrait of 'the family', yet has titled it, Old Guard Last Supper, which i didn't realize in my last post, or i would have pointed out the error there.

HOC MMPB p.296 gives a list of the 'family'. As you say WJ is Old Guard but not the family in a similar way to Choss. Yet Duiker is part of the family, yet we very rarely see any of his memories relate to this other than slightly railing against Laseen for killing his comrades.

i don't think duiker is part of the family. he doesn't meet kellenved until he gets pulled from the ranks and educated alongside toc younger. and he can't be more than 55-60 at the time of DG.

[tiam]

I thought that and thats why I noted its not mentioned in his POV in DG. However its stated he was a member of the family in the passage I noted. In DG Duiker notes that the Emperor gave him alchemies to keep him 'tottering on well past his prime' I think is the exact phrase so he could be older. To be fair Dujek is 70+ and doest seem to show his age likely, as Nok notes in HOC, because of the effects of them living in the Deadhouse. As for a timeline on Duikers age

The best example I can think of are Gamet claims to have fought Coltaine when Blistig was 'still bouncing on his mothers knee'. Now even if we take that as hyperbole it seems likely Blistig was young (perhaps 10 at most) during the Wickan Wars. Gamet fought in the Wickan wars and is an old man by the time of HOC so possibly 20 years between the Wickan Wars and HOC though possibly more. We see in DG that Duiker was already an historian by the time of the Wickan Wars as Bult almost killed him yet turned his weapon aside when he saw he was unarmed then Dujek almost kills Bult. From that we see that by the time of the Wickan Wars Duiker had already done his soldiering and had already been rewarded by becoming a scholar. This also fits in with Duikers own comment that 'decades old training' helped him fight three Tithansi in the tunnel during DG.

He doesnt say thats the first time hes met Kellenved, he says that it was the Emperors reward pulling him from the ranks all those years ago. In fact Duiker actually comments on Kellenveds sense of humour claiming it was odd and maniacal suggesting atleast familiarity. Duikers comment that Toc Younger was teaching him how to read and write means little. He could have been between 5-10 at the time and if we take Toc in GOTM to be thirty+ (I actually think hes closer to forty) it still means Duiker was old at the time of his schooling.

Essentially Duiker campaigned for years and was then taken from the ranks, possibly 30 by this point. He was already an historian by the time of the Wickan Wars which may be upto 20-25 years ago. At first it was Toc the Elder schooling him then Toc the Younger took over so his education while he may have been schooled up until he was 35 lets say plus the 25 years since the Wickan Wars making him atleast 60 most likely older given that Gamets in his 50s to 60s.

Again some of it is difficult to fit together but the best evidence is the fact its staed in that quote I noted above

This post has been edited by tiam: 19 October 2011 - 02:32 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

tiam, on 19 October 2011 - 02:30 PM, said:

I thought that and thats why I noted its not mentioned in his POV in DG. However its stated he was a member of the family in the passage I noted. In DG Duiker notes that the Emperor gave him alchemies to keep him 'tottering on well past his prime' I think is the exact phrase so he could be older. To be fair Dujek is 70+ and doest seem to show his age likely, as Nok notes in HOC, because of the effects of them living in the Deadhouse. As for a timeline on Duikers age

The best example I can think of are Gamet claims to have fought Coltaine when Blistig was 'still bouncing on his mothers knee'. Now even if we take that as hyperbole it seems likely Blistig was young (perhaps 10 at most) during the Wickan Wars. Gamet fought in the Wickan wars and is an old man by the time of HOC so possibly 20 years between the Wickan Wars and HOC though possibly more. We see in DG that Duiker was already an historian by the time of the Wickan Wars as Bult almost killed him yet turned his weapon aside when he saw he was unarmed then Dujek almost kills Bult. From that we see that by the time of the Wickan Wars Duiker had already done his soldiering and had already been rewarded by becoming a scholar. This also fits in with Duikers own comment that 'decades old training' helped him fight three Tithansi in the tunnel during DG.

He doesnt say thats the first time hes met Kellenved, he says that it was the Emperors reward pulling him from the ranks all those years ago. In fact Duiker actually comments on Kellenveds sense of humour claiming it was odd and maniacal suggesting atleast familiarity. Duikers comment that Toc Younger was teaching him how to read and write means little. He could have been between 5-10 at the time and if we take Toc in GOTM to be thirty+ (I actually think hes closer to forty) it still means Duiker was old at the time of his schooling.

Essentially Duiker campaigned for years and was then taken from the ranks, possibly 30 by this point. He was already an historian by the time of the Wickan Wars which may be upto 20-25 years ago. At first it was Toc the Elder schooling him then Toc the Younger took over so his education while he may have been schooled up until he was 35 lets say plus the 25 years since the Wickan Wars making him atleast 60 most likely older given that Gamets in his 50s to 60s.

Again some of it is difficult to fit together but the best evidence is the fact its staed in that quote I noted above

well that is some solid reasoning right there. showed me what for

[tiam]

Im chanelling some reread quote fu atm. Its good getting a reread in but it causes me to write beastly comments in the book forums

EDIT- Just remembered something regarding age. WJ claims in GOTM I think maybe in the prologue that Kellenveds not the only one who remembers Surly as a serving wench, which given the timeline were familiar with seems incorrect.

Then again the timelline is not important.

This post has been edited by tiam: 22 October 2011 - 10:55 AM

[Corporal Nobbs]

Working on this again
From Left to Right
Tayschrenn, Duiker, Cartheron, Surly, Urko, Dancer, Kelleved, Dujek, Nok, Hawl, Ameron, Dassem and Toc the Elder.
 Old Guard Last Supper ME2.jpg (912.44K)
Number of downloads: 5

[Whiskey Bass]

tiam, on 19 October 2011 - 07:51 PM, said:

Im chanelling some reread quote fu atm. Its good getting a reread in but it causes me to write beastly comments in the book forums

EDIT- Just remembered something regarding age. WJ claims in GOTM I think maybe in the prologue that Kellenveds not the only one who remembers Surly as a serving wench, which given the timeline were familiar with seems incorrect.

Then again the timelline is not important.

imo 90% of the regular posters on this site who have come up with their own theory and decided that Whiskeyjack was not one of the 'family' are probably wrong.

why do i think this ?

well the fact he remembers Surly this early, their attitude and manner of speaking to each other and many other little things.

also i've now read the full series and the few times 'family' members have been discussed or listed, the conversation is interupted or trails off and is left unsaid (as in the case of Amaron in RotCG)

This post has been edited by Wily Tuchuk: 09 January 2012 - 05:45 PM

[D'rek]

Looking great so far!

Wily Tuchuk, on 09 January 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

tiam, on 19 October 2011 - 07:51 PM, said:

Im chanelling some reread quote fu atm. Its good getting a reread in but it causes me to write beastly comments in the book forums

EDIT- Just remembered something regarding age. WJ claims in GOTM I think maybe in the prologue that Kellenveds not the only one who remembers Surly as a serving wench, which given the timeline were familiar with seems incorrect.

Then again the timelline is not important.

imo 90% of the regular posters on this site who have come up with their own theory and decided that Whiskeyjack was not one of the 'family' are probably wrong.

why do i think this ?

well the fact he remembers Surly this early, their attitude and manner of speaking to each other and many other little things.

also i've now read the full series and the few times 'family' members have been discussed or listed, the conversation is interupted or trails off and is left unsaid (as in the case of Amaron in RotCG)

He has a sister who is in her forties at absolute most (but seems much more like she's in her twenties or thirties) and has no conceivable reason to have received aging-slowing High Denul treatments, lived in Azath house or anything like that. How exactly did WJ's poor father/mother (I forget which one is the common parent) spawn two children a hundred years apart (again without being an Ascendant or living in an Azath)?

This post has been edited by D'rek: 09 January 2012 - 07:20 PM