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The Problem of Karsa Orlong An Essay on Steve's own website

#1 User is offline   waylander001 

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Posted 03 August 2011 - 06:20 PM

Just in case this has not been posted - I found it on Steven's website - think it was first posted on the Tor'com re-read ..

http://www.steveneri...f-karsa-orlong/

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The Problem of Karsa Orlong

To say that, among all the characters portrayed in The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Karsa Orlong has proved the most divisive among readers of the series is probably beyond refute. Discussions arise regarding this character again and again, and as the debate returns in this TOR re-read, the question of my purpose in creating this character could probably be addressed: so I will.

Consider this an essay, then. The problem posed by Karsa and how readers perceive him will, for me, find its answers from a range of angles; from the Fantasy genre itself, to anthropology, history, cultural identity and its features, to the structure of the series (and the novel in question) and, eventually, to the expectations that fantasy readers bring to a fantasy novel. You may note something of an ellipse in that list, but that’s how I think so bear with me.

Historically within the genre the role of the ‘barbarians’ has roughly split into two morally laden strains. On the one hand they are the ‘dark horde’ threatening civilization; while on the other they are the savage made noble by the absence of civilization. In the matter of Karsa Orlong, we can for the moment disregard the former and concentrate instead on the noble savage trope—such barbarians are purer of spirit, unsullied and uncorrupt; while their justice may be rough, it is still just. One could call it the ‘play-ground wish-fulfillment’ motif, where prowess is bound to fairness and punishment is always righteous. The obvious, almost definitive example of this is R.E.Howard’s Conan, but we can take a more fundamental approach and consider this ‘barbarian’ trope as representing the ‘other,’ but a cleaned-up version intended to invite sympathy. In this invitation there must be a subtle compact between creator and reader, and to list its details can be rather enlightening, so here goes.

We are not the ‘other,’ and this barbarian’s world is therefore exotic, even as it harkens back to a pre-civilized, Edenic proximity. The barbarian’s world is a harsh one, a true struggle for existence, but this struggle is what hones proper virtues (‘proper’ in the sense of readily agreeable virtues, such as loyalty, courage, integrity, and the value of honest labour). Against this we need an opposing force; in this case ‘civilization,’ characterized by deceit, decadence, conspiracy, and consort with evil forces including tyranny: civilization represents, therefore, the loss of freedom (with slavery the most direct manifestation of that, brutally represented in chains and other forms of imprisonment). In essence, then, we as readers are invited to the side of the ‘other,’ the one standing in opposition to civilization. Yet… we readers are ‘civilized.’ We are, in fact, the decadent products of a culture that has not only accepted the loss of freedom, but in fact codifies that loss to ease our discomfort (taxes, wage-slavery, etc). In this manner, we are offered the ‘escapist’ gift of Fantasy; but implicit in this is the notion that a) we need to escape; and :( that civilization is, at its core, evil.

[So, is it not ironic that Leo Grin (a great fan of R.E. Howard) attacks modern fantasy as nihilistic? This man's incomprehension of Howard's own nihilism and anarchic rejection of civilization is, simply, jaw-dropping. Amusing digression ends.]

This brings me (and I can almost hear the groans) to anthropology, although one could approach the notion of the ‘other’ from a whole host of theoretical stances, including mytho-Jungian, sociological, psychological, etc. The point is, the ‘other’ is universal to the human condition: it exists in every culture. I won’t go into too much detail here, since the singular point I want to make is that the notion of the ‘other’ is implicitly arrogant. Most cultures give themselves a collective identity (the ‘us’) and often attribute to themselves a name that means something like ‘the people,’ implying that the ‘others’ are not quite people. This has of course justified all manner of conflict and subjugation, from ancient times to the present. Accordingly, it is not unique to ‘civilization’ per se but to all cultures, regardless of their technological level and social organization. To be the (one and only) ‘people’ is an arrogant assertion: defined in terms of specific habits, behaviours, physical features, language, religion, and so on, but ultimately profoundly conceited in its essential world-view. By this means all manner of atrocity is possible when dealing with the ‘other’ (and all militaries impose psychological ritual to ensure that the soldier sees the enemy as an ‘other’ and therefore less than human and therefore permissible to kill).

[It's not all grim: the notion of 'us' has essential virtues in collective identity, through the sharing of values, community cohesion, and so on; but it's probably fair to say that the pay-off is not quite a balanced one, given that the inherent weakness of 'us' hints at fundamental flaws in that kind of thinking, even if the notion of 'us' also happens to be necessary for a society to function]

Barbarian societies can be as arrogant as civilized ones: the only difference is in the expression of that arrogance. At its core it’s all one, and seems to be a characteristic of the human condition (to this day, for all of our efforts at self-identifying ourselves as a global culture, we continue to impose borders, define select privileges, exercise extortion of weaker peoples, and in the rejection of one community (the neighbourhood) we raise countless others, defined by political afiliation, religion, skin colour or whatever).

There are other implicit judgements to the ‘other.’ Among the Romans the ‘barbaric’ other was not viewed as less-than-human, but in terms of inherent weakness (of their culture). This justified subjugating them, occupying their lands, and enslaving as many of them as was economically possible. The notion of being ‘Roman’ was considered the height of civilized and cultural identity (though it came back to bite their Roman asses). [incidentally, and at the risk of offense, this is what made the teachings of Jesus so revolutionary, as they directly challenged the accepted definitions of self-identity and the institutions of authority in place to maintain them, only to be later co-opted and segmented into rival sects—more us's and more them's—in direct defiance of those very teachings. But one can also argue about the 'us' of believers and the 'them' of non-believers... I sense a vortex ahead so will end digression there]. This Roman stance was the notion of might-as-right and is of course yet another expression of arrogance. Later on, with the (re)-institution of slavery, drawing from Africa, the notion of less-than-human became the dominant ‘justification’ for brutalizing the ‘other.’ One can then turn to the treatment of Jews in Europe, and so on. The point is: history is the study of ‘us’ and ‘them’ and little else.

So, how does all this relate to Karsa Orlong? Well, as has been noted, there was something of the need to prove that I could sustain a single narrative going on (or so I recall, the sense of being pissed off about something is always short-lived and usually ephemeral, although the answer to it can prove far-reaching, as is certainly the case with Karsa); but obviously more was going on. I wanted to address the fantasy trope of the ‘barbarian’ (from the north, no less, and isn’t it curious how so many heroic barbarians come down from the north?), but do so in recognition of demonstrable truths about warrior-based societies, as expressed in that intractable sense of superiority and its arrogant expression; and in recognizing the implicit ‘invitation’ to the reader (into a civilization-rejecting, civilization-hating barbarian ‘hero’), I wanted to, via a very close and therefore truncated point of view, make it damned uncomfortable in its ‘reality,’ and thereby comment on what I saw (and see) as a fundamentally nihilistic fantasy trope: the pure and noble barbarian. Because, whether recognized or not, that fantasy barbarian hero constitutes a rather backhanded attack on the very civilization that produces people with the leisure time to read (and read escapist literature at that).

Within the scope of Karsa’s culture, he holds to his code of integrity and honour, even if they are initially friable in their assumptions (but then, so are all of our assumptions about ‘us’ and about the ‘other’). We observe the details of that culture, revealed bit by bit—with plenty of hints as to its flawed beliefs—and with each detail, we as readers are pushed further away from our own civilized sensibilities.

In one sense, consider Karsa’s tale at the opening of House of Chains as a walk back through time, to the world of, say, Beowulf. As much as we find Beowulf entertaining as a poem, and can even admire it, its ‘barbaric’ sensibilities are profoundly alien to us. Here we have a hero (Beowulf) who shows up as a stranger, only to spend an evening bragging about his superiority over all others, before ultimately usurping Hrothgar’s kingdom… if I may humbly ask this: if you saw Karsa Orlong sitting at Hrothgar’s table that night would you feel him out of place?

The question is: how far from our own sensibilities can we be pushed before it’s too much? Is it his brazen arrogance? Is it the culturally-acceptable rapes? Is it the slaughter of townsfolk, the rejection of Karsa’s companions due to their failures—their weaknesses? Is it his unquenchable self-belief? His need for vengeance? His excessive vows pronounced seemingly without thought? His rejection of civilization? His rejection of enslavement? In other words, where in that Conanesque code of conduct do we reel back a step, shaking our heads?

One of the areas of serious disturbance among readers is, quite understandably, the rape scenes. There is a counterpoint to these, found later in the novel, that includes Karsa’s very direct answer to it, which while on the surface may seem contradictory to his nature, is in fact anything but. Another area is the use of the word ‘children’ when voicing his exploits of slaughter (but then, if child-slaying is a universal taboo, what does that say about our culture, with its missing children; and what does it say about our foreign policies and/or our fanatic religious beliefs, that see children killed every day; or our notions of wealth, that see entire countries left to starve?).

Having established this tight, myopic point of view of the ‘classic’ barbarian (reasonable for an isolated people of remote mountain regions)—and structuring the tale empty of overt authorial judgement yet relentless in its detail, one might then expect to see me take the ‘dark horde’ route and offer up civilization as the beacon of virtue and enlightenment. But then… maybe Howard had a point? For all that his nihilistic rejection of civilization, personified in the Hyborian Tales of Conan, is an invitation to despair (like a bullet to the head), it cannot be dismissed out of hand. Civilization has its problems, and even more distressing, there was indeed a kind of freedom in the pre-industrial age that we can only dream of (but how rose-tinted are those dreams, discounting as they do death-in-childbirth, intestinal parasites, disease, disfigurement, starvation, slavery and so on? Just how far into the ‘escapism’ from reality should the Fantasy genre offer up? Oh, and that is the sixty-four dollar question I’m slowly approaching: the expectations of the fantasy readership, but everything in its time…). Accordingly, Karsa’s introduction into civilization is one made in chains—in the stripping away of his ‘barbaric’ freedom. But arrogance is an unruly beast and he will not so easily be tamed, and so the struggle between barbarism and civilization becomes his own personal struggle (even Conan grumbled as much).

This then is a journey of prejudices under assault.

No wonder it makes so many people uncomfortable. We may not share Karsa’s prejudices, but we share prejudices. Because this is a fantasy novel and so incorporates adventure, this assault is personified with violence, and there is no need (for Karsa, anyway) to internalize it (Karsa is an outward character, not an inward character—and what you see is what you get and what you get is everything that he is, but that does not make him simple. In fact, he is probably the most complex character in the entire series, and in my recognition of that I saw that his tale could bear the weight of its own trilogy, and so it will).

We come at last to the expectation of the fantasy readership, and if you thought I walked a fine line with Karsa, wait till you read what follows. I am not just a writer of fantasy; I am a reader of fantasy, and so I can comfortably stand on both sides of this issue (as can all fantasy writers, barring those who claim to have never read fantasy, and those ones are either dissembling or they truly don’t have a clue). I have already broached the subject of escapism, but that is a universal notion made up of numerous and at times contradictory desires, depending on who you talk to. So it needs elaborating.

One of the traditional appeals to epic fantasy literature of the ‘dark horde’ variety was its simplification of morality. There was clearly defined good and clearly defined evil. Good was good and evil was reprehensible. We were invited into a world where we knew who the good guys were, we knew who the bad guys were, and we knew that by the end the good guys would win, standing triumphant on the corpses of the bad guys (restless corpses were better, since that invited sequels). This is the child-like, play-ground appeal, and in appealing to the child in us it comforts by virtue of its simplicity; while at the same time its codifies the ‘good’ virtues and the ‘bad’ vices, which could in one sense serve as life-lessons. Accordingly, this kind of fantasy’s engagement with reality was one of reduction, infused with exotic ‘otherness’ to stir the wonder of an imaginative mind. Comforting stuff, affirming stuff—in fact, the very stuff that Leo Grin applauds.

But that’s ‘epic’ fantasy. It’s not sword and sorcery fantasy: it’s not R.E. Howard (arguably, it’s not JRR either, but I’ll skirt that particular can of worms here). Howard’s barbarian hero promised chaos and destruction—well, he promised to maintain his barbaric virtues even if it took the world down around him (lovingly spoofed in Jakes’ ‘Mention My Name in Atlantis’). And it if did, well, that was a civilized world, wasn’t it, so good riddance. The sword and sorcery form of fantasy literature twisted things, but something of that simplistic, reductionist sensibility still remained. Good was good (if a little hard) and evil was evil. Only the stigmata had changed. The ‘good’ was the purity of the Cimmerian ice fields; the evil was the steamy civilized southlands with their serpent gods and all the rest. It’s escapism of the nihilistic vengeance sort, the fascistic scouring away of corrupting forces (that part Leo liked, so doubt), with the Northern (white-skinned) Man standing triumphant, a freed and happily large-breasted ex-slave wrapped lovingly round one leg, on her knees of course).

Escapism is seductive, and what it might reveal about us is not always pleasant on reflection: it comes down to the flavours we prefer, the paths we find most inviting to our more fundamental belief systems—whether self-articulated or not, and that alone is enough to make any thinking person shiver.

Karsa is all of that stripped bare; and in turn he infuriates, shocks, and on occasion makes the jaw drop in disbelief. But he is also the reality of the ‘barbaric’ and so represents an overt rejection of the romanticized, fantasized barbarian trope. Some people don’t like that. Fair enough.

I come at last to my consideration of audience expectations. Believe me, I did consider them. I always consider them—but consideration does not guarantee a change of mind regarding the course I choose: more often, that consideration demands from me a challenge in exercising subtlety, and this is the nature of subversion as I work it into my novels (and series). Karsa subverts the ‘fantasy’ of the barbarian hero in Fantasy, and he does so because I feel that there is something dangerous in that romanticism, and in that vengeful refutation of civilization. In turn, however, Karsa’s tale also subverts the notion of civilization as virtuous savior and deliverer of enlightenment, because history tells us otherwise

So I ended up punching both ways. It’s a damned wonder I didn’t lose everyone after ‘House of Chains’ (or, more accurately, during the reading of ‘House of Chains.’). Structurally, I could not have introduced Karsa any earlier than I did. After three novels (all subversive in their own, unique ways) I was ready for something more overt—I was ready to take on the barbarian fantasy. At the same time, an entire novel of that relentless point of view would have been one bridge too far. The struggle between barbarism and civilization is not just specific to Karsa or even his tale: it is the struggle within each of us, as we battle desires with propriety, and as we battle need with responsibility. In the remainder of the series, those battles are played out on grander scales. It could be argued that civilization’s greatest gift is compassion—the extension of empathy, even unto strangers, and as such acts in half-formed opposition to barbarism with its pragmatic viciousness, and if compassion must be our shield, it is against our own baser natures.

Karsa’s journey in this novel and in this series stand as stepping stones across this raging river of (invented) history. Later, he appears as a chorus in the ancient Greek sense, to remind us that we’re all playing with bones, not sticks and stones. To skip him is to miss a fundamental argument of this series: but then, as mentioned before, there are many forms of escapism, and the Fantasy genre speaks to them all at one time or another.

The Malazan Book does not offer readers the escapism into any romantic notions of barbarism, or into a world of pure, white knight Good, and pure, black tyrant Evil. In fact, probably the boldest claim to escapist fantasy my series makes, is in offering up a world where we all have power, no matter our station, no matter our flaws and weaknesses—we all have power.

I don’t know about you, but I’ll escape into that world every chance I can.

Now, as Karsa would say: “Too many words. Witness.”

Cheers

Steven Erikson

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This post has been edited by waylander001: 03 August 2011 - 06:21 PM

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#2 User is offline   gmason007 

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:24 AM

Ummmm yeah okay here we go. Karsa is a dick. Pure an simple. He attempts to come across as this flawed noble
Barbarian type but time and again within the series he is pointedly unmasked as a hypocritical manical childish asshole that continually creates the very situations he claims to despise then uses his, (IMHO), bullshit super abilities to destroy or threaten into submission or silence those that might possibly undermine or point out his faults. Basically I'm of the opinion to say 'fuck this guy'. He's no better than any modern day tyrant who achieves dominance through power despite his ignorance. He's currently my least favourite character in the series closely followed by the Edur as a people.
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#3 User is offline   gmason007 

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 05:08 AM

Karsa’s journey in this novel and in this series stand as stepping stones across this raging river of (invented) history. Later, he appears as a chorus in the ancient Greek sense, to remind us that we’re all playing with bones, not sticks and stones. To skip him is to miss a fundamental argument of this series: but then, as mentioned before, there are many forms of escapism, and the Fantasy genre speaks to them all at one time or another.

The Malazan Book does not offer readers the escapism into any romantic notions of barbarism, or into a world of pure, white knight Good, and pure, black tyrant Evil. In fact, probably the boldest claim to escapist fantasy my series makes, is in offering up a world where we all have power, no matter our station, no matter our flaws and weaknesses—we all have power.


Bullshit. Sorry it is despite what Steven claims otherwise.
Yes Karsa is not Conan nor is he Lancelot or even Hitler. The argument that 'we all have power' is equally hollow in reference to Karsa as he has Ultimate Power, without the wisdom to use it wisely not responsibility to use it at all. He violently blunders along a path that seems to lead to some kind of revelation or growth, then promptly throws it away in the next breath time and again for no real reason beyond his belligerence for the sake of being an asshole, ad nauseum. All Karsa is, and his 'journey' by extension is, is yet another powerhouse character being used as a literary bludgeon in what is otherwise a stunning series. It's a lazy bit of writing in an amazing set of novels and I'm surprised and disappointed that Steven felt the need to resort to using such a weak style of character when so many of his others stand alone as powerful, yet flawed and introspective individuals. Karsa time and again screams out in the pages as a one dimensional being while so many 'lesser' characters that interact with him and are blatantly meant to be supporting cast to him outshine him with their radiance.
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#4 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 07:50 AM

You're not allowed to cuss on this board.
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#5 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 12:26 PM

And how far in the series have you read that you make such bold claims as to what Karsa truly is or isn't?
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#6 User is offline   Loki 

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 03:04 PM

From what I've read and from what I know of Karsa's story in regards to the final books makes me inclined to agree with gmason. I probably wouldn't have phrased it in the same manner but the point he made rings true with me. Though I'm willing to allow myself a change of opinion once I've finished the series but I strongly doubt that I will.

EDIT: It wouldn't be the first time an authors impression of their creation is at odds with how (some) readers perceive them. An authors intent isn't always actualised within the story. Just because Erikson intended Karsa to be and represent all that he stated in his essay doesn't mean that's what Karsa is to the reader. Characters in a book, while they should be defined by the author, are ultimately defined by the reader and in this case I agree with gmason's interpretation of Karsa.

This post has been edited by Loki: 17 April 2012 - 03:32 PM

Wry, on 29 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

And you're not complaining, you're criticizing. It's a side-effect of being better than everyone else, I get it sometimes too.

~TQB~
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#7 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 04:23 PM

I wasn't saying I completely disagree with gmason's opinion, since I can say that I had the same opinion of Karsa after reading HoC. He does change, within his own limits of course, further into the series, and it's of course up to everyone to judge that.

What I was diagreeing with was the way gmason stated his opnion as the only true one. What SE had in mind and what gmason thinks is the case may be different things and this is perfectly okay, but I do disagree with statements like these..

 gmason007, on 17 April 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

[...] It's a lazy bit of writing in an amazing set of novels and I'm surprised and disappointed that Steven felt the need to resort to using such a weak style of character [...]


Just personal opinion, mind you, but I'm not a fan of Karsa and still think he's a well developed character, who has his own important place within the story.
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#8 User is offline   Soulcrusher 

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 05:16 AM

I'm only up to Midnight Tides in the series and I believe he appears in later books as well, But I quite like Karsa's character and found I really enjoyed the first 200 pages of House Of Chains contrary to a great many reviews I read on the book who claimed it was horrific and the most boring 200 pages in the series thus far. I enjoyed his character development.
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#9 User is offline   Whisperzzzzzzz 

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 11:09 AM

 worrywort, on 17 April 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

You're not allowed to cuss on this board.


Wait, what? Since when!
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#10 User is offline   blackzoid 

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 04:43 PM

 Puck, on 17 April 2012 - 12:26 PM, said:

And how far in the series have you read that you make such bold claims as to what Karsa truly is or isn't?

I've read the entire series and I do believe that gmason007 has a point. I would not be as forceful as gmason007 in this but I think Karsa IS infantile, but always gets his way in spite of that. However I don't actually think SE condones him in any way. Karsa's ultimate goal (and I've spoken about this before) is nothing less than genocide, no different than what the Pannion Domin did (bar the cannibalism). Karsa makes good points about civilisations faults (in the later books) but his "solutions" are laughable/childish and immature: "civilisation is bad, lets destroy it all!". Do we condone Kallor for what he did to his empire? No, so Karsa as a potential Kallor should be treated no differently.

This post has been edited by blackzoid: 25 April 2012 - 04:48 PM

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#11 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 07:27 PM

 Whisperzzzzzzz, on 25 April 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

 worrywort, on 17 April 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

You're not allowed to cuss on this board.


Wait, what? Since when!


You are, just that one guy isn't. I don't make the rules.
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#12 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:18 PM

 gmason007, on 17 April 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

All Karsa is, and his 'journey' by extension is, is yet another powerhouse character being used as a literary bludgeon in what is otherwise a stunning series. It's a lazy bit of writing in an amazing set of novels and I'm surprised and disappointed that Steven felt the need to resort to using such a weak style of character when so many of his others stand alone as powerful, yet flawed and introspective individuals. Karsa time and again screams out in the pages as a one dimensional being while so many 'lesser' characters that interact with him and are blatantly meant to be supporting cast to him outshine him with their radiance.


That was, in my opinion, brilliantly perceived. I feel the exact same way.

As for SE's explanation above, this is exactly what I don't like about the guy. That's the kind of self-indulgent rambling that has turned me off (particularly with DoD) and made it so I can't even start the last book. I tried a re-read last year and made it through the first 5 books, but by the time I finished Midnight Tides, I could already see why I liked the books steadily less and less as the series goes on. This guy does some things beautifully and creates excitement and suspense like no other fantasy author I've read. At the same time, however, he kills that suspense and excitement with his pretentious, over-written monologues. I know some people like it, but for me it's just a slog, and it's so dissapointing to trudge through hundreds of pages of what SE thinks is brilliant and 'novel' introspection and philosophizing, only to get to a climactic scene that ends up being ham-fistedly decided by Karsa Orlong, moranth munitions, nuclear power-sorcerors or laser beam fight.

That whole BS 'essay' SE wrote at the top of this page could have been summarized, succinctly, in three to five sentences. Everyone would have understood. Instead, he somehow managed to extend it into 12 paragraphs or something, while managing nothing extra, by repeating, restating, rewording and re-emphasizing his points over and over again. Ugh....
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#13 User is offline   Salt-Man Z 

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:37 PM

 Abberon, on 25 April 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

That whole BS 'essay' SE wrote at the top of this page could have been summarized, succinctly, in three to five sentences. ... Instead, he somehow managed to extend it into 12 paragraphs or something, while managing nothing extra, by repeating, restating, rewording and re-emphasizing his points over and over again.

I'm pretty sure that's the definition of an essay. Sorry if you like having everything boiled down to buzzwords and talking points, I guess?
"Here is light. You will say that it is not a living entity, but you miss the point that it is more, not less. Without occupying space, it fills the universe. It nourishes everything, yet itself feeds upon destruction. We claim to control it, but does it not perhaps cultivate us as a source of food? May it not be that all wood grows so that it can be set ablaze, and that men and women are born to kindle fires?"
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#14 User is offline   Vengeance 

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 08:49 PM

I always find it interesting to read what authors intended for a character to be and how they developed a character. My personal like or dislike of Karsa does not enter into my appreciation for the creation and development of his character. Thank you for posting this essay.
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#15 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:27 PM

 Salt-Man Z, on 25 April 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure that's the definition of an essay. Sorry if you like having everything boiled down to buzzwords and talking points, I guess?


Concise and compelling writing go a long way. If you wanted, I could reply to your above statement with an essay of my own. Would that be worthwhile? No. It's sufficient simply to say that there's a difference between a compelling essay, which would carry a reader from start to finish through an interesting thought process and/or experience, and an overwritten one which doesn't have enough interesting material to make it an essay in the first place.
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#16 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 25 April 2012 - 09:53 PM

Like Karsa Orlong.
They came with white hands and left with red hands.
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#17 User is offline   Abberon 

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Posted 26 April 2012 - 01:17 PM

haha yes. At least Karsa Orlong doesn't pontificate.
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#18 User is offline   Vaddon Ra 

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Posted 21 March 2013 - 08:04 PM

surprised at the overt anger at that initial response to the essay. So this guy hates Karsa...Ok cool, but Karsa alone doesn't fuel the fire of the Malazan world if he did then SE would have written most of his books from Karsa Perspective. I happen to love Mr Orlong and I like how he begins as essentially a self righteous asshole confident in his belief in his own barbaric superiority and through imprisonment he changes...he does, his core personality remains but he does change. I wasn't a fan of him intially, but his treatment of Bidithal out of care for Felesin and his evident love and treatment of Samar and especially Munug make me really love him. Well, that and the face crushing sword play :D But I think he's quite deep and interesting... and to be honest I reckon the karsa trilogy will be anything but what it would look like in the hands of a bad author. It wont just be like a play by play of Ghengis Khan destorying his enemies and winning, I think the toblakai will have a lot to learn, about everything, about true value and values.... ah whatever :p people can hate him or love him, I think his story is really really exciting :p
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#19 User is offline   Shinrei 

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Posted 09 October 2013 - 08:31 AM

Late to this thread, but I was searching for a thread like this so i wouldn't have to make one. I'm re-reading the series now, and what basically came to me was that Karsa is Kallor. Some people love Karsa, most despise Kallor, but for me it's equal measures of contempt.

Wrap your brains around this though, I LIKE reading about Karsa and I LIKE reading about Kallor. I just hate their guts. The fact that Kallor's genocide and Karsa's promise of genocide have different reasoning behind them at the end of the day doesn't change the needless suffering and death. Fuck'em.
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