Malazan Empire: Marvel Presents Steve Erikson, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love Kruppe - Malazan Empire

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Marvel Presents Steve Erikson, or How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love Kruppe

#1 User is offline   Leoman 

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 04:09 PM

Deadhouse Gates takes place on another continent, and so you learn lots of new stuff and get even more questions.

I found that in MoI you get answers to lots and lots of questions, and as you go on a lot more are answered that may confuse you in the first books.

Yes, GotM is definetly SE's worst work (not to say it's bad, because it's awesome) But my favorite book MoI. It has lots of action and it answers lots of confusing questions.

And welcome to the forums Posted Image You can go into the Phoenix Inn and intoduce yourself at the New Member Introduction Thread. I'm sorry to say not a lot is happening in the book forums thanks to the book drought lately, but once BH comes out things will pick up again.

Seeya in the Inn,

Leoman
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#2 Guest_Niko III_*

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 04:07 AM

Welcome, fish n00b!
Now read the other books.
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#3 User is offline   fortyseven 

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 10:14 PM

Caladan is a planet in Dune
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#4 User is offline   McLovin 

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 11:38 AM

Welcome to the forum, Infidel! Get over to the Phoenix Inn and introduce yourself! Posted Image

IMO, GOTM is the weakest of the novels - each installment gets better and better.

As to your questions, I can confidently answer that 6 times 9 is 42. I hope that cleared everything up for you...if not, guess you'll just have to keep reading... Posted Image
OK, I think I got it, but just in case, can you say the whole thing over again? I wasn't really listening.
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#5 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 12:03 PM

Welcome to the forms... i have to agree GotM is his weakest work, the following installments are much better, but that is unsuprising really seeing as I gather it was originally a film script that was later novellised.

As to your questions, lots of them are answered in later books, others are hinted at and a hell of a lot more becomes clear when you read on (a novella Night of Knives by SE's co author Ian Camerron Esslemont, delves more into the history of the malazan world) and on teh whoel i'm confident taht you will have answers to most of your questions by the time you reach MT... true you'll have anotehr set of questions by then but hey...

One question of yours I do believe I can answer however with no real spoilers:

quote:
Who was it with Whiskeyjack in the prologue? (Dujek? Toc the Elder?)


If you are referring to the man who comes and stands next to whiskeyjack as he talks to Paran, with a broken fiddle strapped to his back... it is of course fiddler the sapper from the ninth squad, who will play a much more prominent role in later books...

And i have to say i was also disapointed with the lack of payoff from the scene on the balcony... it seems to have been largely brushed under the carpet.
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#6 User is online   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 02:29 PM

A n00b! Fresh meat... I mean, hey welcome to the forum!!
A Haunting Poem
I Scream
You Scream
We all Scream
For I Scream.
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#7 Guest_Infidel_*

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 09:52 AM

Gardens of the Moon is a novel I’ve long viewed with ambivalence. A few years back, fresh off being wowed by Martin’s sublime Song of Ice and Fire and armed with a renewed interest in the Epic Fantasy Series, I cast about for the next big thing, sure that someone else must be similarly be injecting life back the increasingly tired and clichéd genre. I saw Erikson recommended, and snagged a copy of GotM and Deadhouse Gates will on a trip to London. I sped through the first 200 pages GotM, promptly stopped, and left it and its sequel untouched for four years.

Now, I didn’t hurl the book across the room so much as toss it gently into the corner, but did run smack into the Eight Deadly Words. For those not initiated into the peculiar patois of rec.arts.sf.written – I Don’t Care What Happens To These People. And so, I bounced of GotM. Hard. Some of the more common criticisms of Erikson involve the in media res nature of GotM, subpar dialogue and sketchy characterization. There’s also a sense of not knowing what the **** is going on that far surpasses most other novels I’ve read that use the same device. (Indeed, there is nothing new about novels that start in media res, and most modern readers should be well used to it.) That in its self was not sufficient to derail my read-through. Combined as it was, though, with the weak characterization, somewhat cheesy names (Anomander Rake? Caladan Brood? It felt like he was using TSR’s villain name-generator) and superhero-like clashes of god tossing about spells and wielding magic swords, I came to place it firmly in the Extruded Fantasy Product camp with the refuse from Jordan, Brooks, and Goodkind. So there it sat, in my mind, as I watched its popularity blossom in fantasy circles, wondering just what was wrong with all these people singing its praises. Books three and four were released to similar acclaim.

I began to feel like I hadn’t given Erikson a fair hearing. I started to absorb the idea that GotM was his weakest work, and that the further entries in the series were much improved. Perhaps my mood simply shifted and I starting looking for a good escapist fantasy yarn. For whatever reason, I gave the book a second chance. After years of criticizing Erikson and attempt to steer prospective readers clear, I come before you to say, I was wrong.

Mostly.

Erikson’s biggest failure is that GotM is most certainly “superhero fantasy.” Figures of inflated power do in fact run around engaging other beings of inflated power in mortal spellcasting duels. At times it feels like the cast of X-Men were released into Middle Earth. That of the mundane, that of human interest that exists in the story, is very much pushed to the sidelines and overshadowed by the machinations of meddling gods and ancient, immortal beings. It is to Erikson’s credit, then, that he makes such things so damn interesting. There is something intriguing in a mythology wherein the gods are not just users but alsi tools, where they wield unsurpassed power and yet are vulnerable to the deeds of mere mortals. The idea of mortals “ascending” to god-hood has been used before, but never so effectively as here, and it integrates flawlessly with the mythology Erikson builds for the reader. There is a real sense of “deep time” here that has taken in many of Erikson’s fans, and there is no denying that the worldbuilding is the series’ greatest achievement to date.

That being said, upon the reread, I found that many of my earlier criticisms have melted away. The prose and dialogue, for example, are nowhere near as bad as I remember. (An analysis likely colored by my switching gears from Martin to Erikson.) While it is not anything special in an absolute, it is certainly better than just about anything else in the multivolume epic fantasy subgenre. And there a bits of prose and dialogue that are genuinely haunting and funny. (My favorite bit of dialogue is in the prologue – which I’m surprised never really paid off later on in interactions between Whiskeyjack and Paran.)

Characterization remains a flaw, however, especially in light of how the actions of the mortals are already overshadowed by the Ascendants’ machinations. I found it difficult, at times, to understand why certain characters acted the way they did, other than to serve the plot. (The rather implausible quickie by Tattersail and Paran, for example, after which Paran spent much of the rest of the novel internally declaring his undying love.) The character of Whiskeyjack, similarly, was sketched in a manner coy enough to be almost inscrutable. But it might pay off down the road. Anyway, to Erikson’s credit again, I kept turning pages at a tremendous pace despite flaws that might cripple other novels. But at this point I’m willing to give Erikson the benefit of the doubt, both because I’m told he improves in later novels and because in my opinion, no one outside of Martin and Bakker are currently writing anything near as epic and compelling. As the series progresses, we shall see whether the storylines involving the non-Ascendants are crafted with the same flair as those involving the magical and the godly.

Once a certain point was reached, in familiarity with the world and in comfort with Erikson’s style, the unanswered questions that threaten to sink the novel at its start become an impetus to keep reading. Surprisingly, though by the end not many are answered, the ending doesn’t leave one feeling cheated – rather, one feels the need to start Deadhouse Gates immediately.

Some of the questions remaining at the book’s end:

Just what are the Warrens? My first reading equated them with DnD “Planes” in that, the Warren of Light (Thry?) must be occupied by the God of Light, and so on, but this seems flawed. In some cases, the god or gods associated with a Warren seem to reside there – Hood, Shadowthrone/Rope for example, but in others this doesn’t seem to hold.

What happened to Dassem Ultor? Why were Kellenved/Dancer overthrown, and what is it they learned in the Azath they entered? What are the Houses of Azath? Who is Kruppe, and why do gods play in his dreams? Why does Quick Ben have a mastery seven warrens, and why is this feat impressive? Why did Kalam leave the Claw? Is Toc the Younger dead? (Based on the writings of his quoted on occasion, I gather not) What happened to Toc the Elder? What is driving Laseen? Who was it with Whiskeyjack in the prologue? (Dujek? Toc the Elder?) Why is Burn sleeping and what happens when it awakens? What game are the Founding and Elder Races playing at? Why is the Pannion Seer a more pressing concern than the Malazan conquest? And so on.* Erikson has built a world here that begs for answers to these questions, and I’m happy to keep reading on to find out.

*The biggest question of all may be, why is this story important, now? Erikson gives us a sense that time extends before and beyond the events of the “Malazan Book of the Fallen”. Why are these events important in the grand scheme of things?
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#8 Guest_korik_*

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 10:41 AM

welcome to the forums!

i seriously agree with pretty much all of what you have just wrote, i think the points outlined above are the main reasons that erikson is not as well known as perhaps he deserves. but it is worth it once you can get past the first 200 pages or so. for the record my girlfriend couldnt despite my pleas for her to keep going.

i just add as well that while some of the questions are answered in later books, see edge's post. you are likely to gain just as many questions from reading them.

korik
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#9 Guest_Edge_*

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Posted 24 June 2005 - 02:19 PM

quote:


What happened to Dassem Ultor? Why were Kellenved/Dancer overthrown, and what is it they learned in the Azath they entered?


See Night of Knives

quote:
What are the Houses of Azath?


More info in MoI HoC and particularly MT

quote:
Who is Kruppe, and why do gods play in his dreams?


A uniquely talented man and only one god - more in MoI

quote:
Why does Quick Ben have a mastery seven warrens, and why is this feat impressive?


Read MoI

quote:
Is Toc the Younger dead? (Based on the writings of his quoted on occasion, I gather not)


MoI

quote:
Who was it with Whiskeyjack in the prologue? (Dujek? Toc the Elder?)


Fiddler

quote:
Why is Burn sleeping and what happens when it awakens?


MoI

quote:
Why is the Pannion Seer a more pressing concern than the Malazan conquest?


MoI


So I guess the moral of the story is keep on reading - all is (gradually) revealed Posted Image
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#10 User is offline   Kimpo 

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Posted 25 June 2005 - 10:53 AM

oh, a convert, good to have you with us Infidel Posted Image
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