[Blueiron]

Surely if Kilava was trying to hold off the Dragons, then she expected to die. It seems strange then, that she would stop after taking out Gruntle. I mean, sure, she was badly beaten up, but she expected to die. Why did she stop fighting? Does she think she can make a difference later on if she can recover her strength?
You guys are making more sense of this than I can, anyway

[Paran]

Here's how I saw it. Kilava was sending signals to Gruntle/Trake and this was misinterpreted. Anyway, Gruntle/Trake made a pact when they found out the Kilava was actually not going to fight the dragons - that they were no ones pawns and that they would go solo Wolverine on the whole thing. In that sense I believe that they were one and the same, lone cats who hated being used. There was not struggle between Trake and Gruntle when it came to crunch time, they both decided to take on Kilava and stop the dragons. Ass kicking ensues and they die in battle.

[Goken]

foolio, on 02 June 2011 - 07:55 PM, said:

Ok, I am horribly confused about gruntles ending story line. I am going to jumble some questions and comments and would love ridicule, answers, or any sort of wisdom someone can lend me.



1. Was Kilava the black panther he kept seeing in the dream world? Was she raped as he thought?

2. Kilava was responsible for destroying the Kettle Azath, right? She killed it on purpose to...force her children into the world?


3. How did he fight Kilava to a standstill? I mean, we see other mortal swords who are not that tough(krughava gets taken out by a weasel with a knife both intellectually and physically), Kilava seems to think of herself as on par with the badest of the bad. The errant seems scared of her.


4. What happened to the deseased dead warriors gruntl picks up in the dream world that he had trake heal? Was their something significant about the dudes the immediately set upon and killed. It seemed like they were with gruntle one second and were going to play a part, then they were gone.


5. What was gruntles motivation for fighting Kilava? Could he have stopped the dragons from coming through the gate. Kilava enables this? shouldnt draconus now kill her? Why did the dragons(Eleint) ignore her and not kill her?


6. I saw on another thread that Trake was dead, is this true?

7. What exactly did Trake want gruntle to do at the gate. It seems like he was drawn there but I dont know why. Kilava had no intention of stopping them so I dont know why she bothered to stay there in the first place.



This whole story arc made no sense to me, I am hoping someone can make sense of it, and sorry about the rambling statements. I did think it was cool and to find out that Kilava was Trakes mother but the rest just confuses me.

These are really excellent questions. I'm a bit disappointed that folks seem to be making up their own answers to these questions. Yes, it's confusing. But some things we know. I've numbered the questions above and will respond below.

1. Almost certainly. She knew exactly what Gruntle was talking about when he mentioned his dreams. As to rape... good question, I don't understand that part at all.

2. Page 485 -

Quote

‘There is little time left! Gruntle, do not challenge this!’ She lifted her arms out to the sides. ‘Look at me! I am Kilava Onass, a Bonecaster of the Imass. I defied the Ritual of Tellann, and my power beggars that of your human gods. What will occur here not even I can prevent – do you understand me? It is…necessary…’

She seems to be trying to control something that is too powerful for her to stop. Why? Don't know exactly. She almost certainly had a hand in the azath's deterioration, but perhaps that was inevitable.

3. Mortal Sword isn't some title that magically conveys the exact same benefits for everyone. In Gruntle's case, his god chose him and forced upon him a great portion of his power along with the ability to shape-change. The book even addresses Gruntle anger over Trake's decision to do so. In any case, Gruntle was supposed to be incredibly powerful. He also seems to have summoned Trake into himself for that battle but I'm not 100% sure on that.

4. No idea, that was weird, where the heck DID they go?

5. This I can answer - page 485

Quote

‘Gruntle, why are you here?’ He advanced, feeling the blood within him rise to a boil. Haven’t you guessed? I’m going to fight. I’m going to bring your son down – here and now. I’m going to kill the bastard. An end to the god of slaughter, of horror, of rape— Kilava howled in sudden rage, vanished inside a blur of darkness. Veered into a panther as huge as Gruntle himself, she coiled to spring. In his mind, he saw a single, quick nod. Yes. Baring his fangs, Gruntle lunged to meet her.

So he hated Trake and wanted to kill him. Maybe he knew the only way to summon him was to go where Trake wanted him to be and get him really fired up in battle. But in the course of the battle he switches to attacking a dragon, so he definitely wanted to stop them. He probably just wanted to prevent their destructive power from be unleashed on the world, which is very sensible really. He probably just didn't see the whole picture like Kilava. What did she know? Perhaps that the ottatarel dragon was a threat? As to Draconus or the dragons' feelings toward Kilava, we don't know. But we also don't know any specific reason why either should seek her death. Kilava's crime is not on the magnitude of Kilimandaros'. Kilava did not willfully seek to unmake the world. And dragons aren't compelled to kill everything in their path, only those things that oppose them or other dragons.

6. Not sure if we know for sure that Trake is dead. We do know that Gruntle sought to kill him (see above) and died in the process, so it seems likely.

7. Not sure what Trake wanted, but it seems likely that he wanted to stop the dragons. Kilava was clearly guarding the gate to prevent anyone for making the attempt, for whatever reason.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 04:23 PM, said:

[

6. Not sure if we know for sure that Trake is dead. We do know that Gruntle sought to kill him (see above) and died in the process, so it seems likely.

After Gruntle dies, Kilava states how she'll mourn him but not care a damn for her son, so it seems Gruntle took Treach with him.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 26 August 2011 - 05:00 PM

[Abyss]

I don't take that as dead Trake. Iirc, the text does state he withdraws from Gruntle.

[Goken]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 26 August 2011 - 04:26 PM, said:

Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 04:23 PM, said:

[

6. Not sure if we know for sure that Trake is dead. We do know that Gruntle sought to kill him (see above) and died in the process, so it seems likely.

After Gruntle dies, Kilava sates how she'll mourn him but not care a damn for her son, so it seems Gruntle took Treach with him.

Good point, I agree what that assessment.

[Goken]

By the way, as good as all the other questions are, my biggest question is: WHY THE HECK IS THIS ARC IN THE BOOK? It doesn't really serve to advance the story. Really, all the characters from the whachamacall trade guild could have been removed. Someone actually relevant to the story could have helped save Brys. But Gruntle's story was just unnecessary and tragic. That might be the point (war is unnecessary and tragic!), but it's not my favorite part that's for sure.

[Lizradusa]

Quote

Gruntle heard Trake's death cry, and that howl itself seemed to catch fire in the conflagation of draconic magic. It raged around him, tore deep into his ruined body. All at once his god left him, stumbling away, away from this realm. A trail, another cave, a place of darkness, a place to lie down and die.
Again. You damned fool. You never learn. And now . . . now it's too late.

The quote above says pretty much directly that Trake died.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 04:51 PM, said:

By the way, as good as all the other questions are, my biggest question is: WHY THE HECK IS THIS ARC IN THE BOOK? It doesn't really serve to advance the story. Really, all the characters from the whachamacall trade guild could have been removed. Someone actually relevant to the story could have helped save Brys. But Gruntle's story was just unnecessary and tragic. That might be the point (war is unnecessary and tragic!), but it's not my favorite part that's for sure.

what if we didn't have a scene of the azath at the gates of starvald demelain? what if the dragons all just burst out of the blue and began attacking korabas? wouldn't you be complaining about how unexpected and completely contrived the dragons arriving were? and what if gruntle didn't join the TTG? wouldn't you be pissed that gruntle's story just fizzled out and went nowhere?

even if i only knew some of them for three books or less, the TTG were some amazing characters and had some very awesome and poignant scenes. who would you consider 'relevant' enough to save brys' life? there isn't a single other person around who isn't fighting for their damn life. in fact, faint's development in this book was absolutely brilliant. her self-recrimination, her hallucinations of sweetest. i came to care about faint as much as any other character.

as for advancing the story, i presume you're speaking about gruntle? again, dragons escaping SD - very important. gruntles anger and defiance against trake (and all he stands for) and his determination to be the worst mortal sword ever - resolved, quite satisfactorily as well.

[Goken]

Sinisdar Toste, on 27 August 2011 - 03:56 AM, said:

Goken, on 26 August 2011 - 04:51 PM, said:

By the way, as good as all the other questions are, my biggest question is: WHY THE HECK IS THIS ARC IN THE BOOK? It doesn't really serve to advance the story. Really, all the characters from the whachamacall trade guild could have been removed. Someone actually relevant to the story could have helped save Brys. But Gruntle's story was just unnecessary and tragic. That might be the point (war is unnecessary and tragic!), but it's not my favorite part that's for sure.

what if we didn't have a scene of the azath at the gates of starvald demelain? what if the dragons all just burst out of the blue and began attacking korabas? wouldn't you be complaining about how unexpected and completely contrived the dragons arriving were? and what if gruntle didn't join the TTG? wouldn't you be pissed that gruntle's story just fizzled out and went nowhere?

even if i only knew some of them for three books or less, the TTG were some amazing characters and had some very awesome and poignant scenes. who would you consider 'relevant' enough to save brys' life? there isn't a single other person around who isn't fighting for their damn life. in fact, faint's development in this book was absolutely brilliant. her self-recrimination, her hallucinations of sweetest. i came to care about faint as much as any other character.

as for advancing the story, i presume you're speaking about gruntle? again, dragons escaping SD - very important. gruntles anger and defiance against trake (and all he stands for) and his determination to be the worst mortal sword ever - resolved, quite satisfactorily as well.

Well the gate thing was already handled pretty well by Udinass and company. The author could have just had another scene with those fellows as they flee, making it clear that the dragons were-a-comin.

As for who to save Brys - I dunno, I guess the way it went was fine. Just saying that if the editor needed the book trimmed, that part could go. You could have the fourteenth daughter and her handmaid help or something like that.

And for closure to Gruntle's story... WAH? I thought we already had closure! He saved his loved ones and had a place to call home... and then left it all behind for this pointless venture. THAT was weird.

This post has been edited by Goken: 27 August 2011 - 11:41 AM

[Puck]

Goken, on 27 August 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

And for closure to Gruntle's story... WAH? I thought we already had closure! He saved his loved ones and had a place to call home... and then left it all behind for this pointless venture. THAT was weird.

No, it was perfectly in character for Gruntle.

Aside from that, all I'm going to add is this: there is NO pointless story arc in the MBotF, it all is intertwined with everything else and just because someone doesn't like it that doesn't make it pointless. It's not just about what happened, but also about what is conveyed and left unsaid between the lines.

[Baaljagg]

worrywort, on 03 June 2011 - 08:38 PM, said:

As far as Trake being "half-Imass" or whatever, I don't think that's even necessary. It's stated a few times over the course of the series that Kilava is the mother of humans. I know we've all had our debates on whether the Imass are the true parents of humanity or only culturally so, while the Eres are the genetic parents. I kinda think it's both, or neither, or something else. I dunno, but I don't think it's as clean as we'd like it to be in terms of order of succession. I think when Kilava and Onrack have a baby, it's Imass, but who's to say if Kilava mothered a child with an Eres father, little humans wouldn't pop out? Or that Kilava couldn't, with all her powers, shape a new species of her own will? In other words, Trake can be the son of Kilava and still be more or less human.

From what I understand the Eres were the first of all humanity type races (the common genetic link) which had the spark of awareness. The Imass appear to have descended from the Eres, and the Imass descendants split into further subspecies, the Humans, Barghast, Moranth, Seguleh, Rhivi etc...

[Puck]

Or maybe both Imass and humans descended from the Eres (that's the impression I got from DoD, that basically on Lether the humans hunted the Imass]. It's not like our own evolution was as clear cut.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Goken, on 27 August 2011 - 11:41 AM, said:

And for closure to Gruntle's story... WAH? I thought we already had closure! He saved his loved ones and had a place to call home... and then left it all behind for this pointless venture. THAT was weird.

i rather doubt that the mortal sword of a god of war was going to get away with settling down, and the last thing that i got from gruntles end in MoI was closure. who did he save? hardly any of his legion, and he barely saved stonny. where is his home? he can't live with harllo's family.

prod and pull, tis the way of the gods. they nudge us this way and that, cutting us off and isolating us from other people, to better make us into what they need us to be. gruntle set out on his own to try and spite trake and give him a taste of his own medicine. and he succeeded.

[Goken]

Robin Goodfellow, on 27 August 2011 - 01:30 PM, said:

Or maybe both Imass and humans descended from the Eres (that's the impression I got from DoD, that basically on Lether the humans hunted the Imass]. It's not like our own evolution was as clear cut.

SE is an anthropologist, so a lot of the races derive from his science nerd bent. The impression I get about the Imass is they are based on the Neanderthal. It is known that the Neanderthal coexisted with homo sapiens in Europe. There is some debate about whether the Neanderthal were flat wiped out by their new cousins or whether there was interbreeding before the end. But what is clear is that the two branches certainly had a common ancestor hominid and that they were around at the same time, competing for the same niche.

[Ozymandiac]

There is still one part that still annoying me about Kilava: I definitely seem to remember that Kilava wants the Kettle-Azath to die (someone even suspects her of giving her death a nudge). Perhaps Kilave thought the Azath's death was inadvertable, and preferred to choose the moment of its death instead of being surprised by a Storm of Dragons?

[Asharak]

Gruntle and Trake were going to try to stop the dragons from entering the world. As was said in one of Gruntles POVs he accepted that he was on his way to his own death, the point wasn’t that they had a chance to stop the Eleint, they just felt they had to try.

When Gruntle said he was going to kill Trake, he didn’t mean it literally. Trake was partially possessing Gruntles body, which meant that both would die if Gruntle was killed.

As shown in the text Kilava didn’t want the Eleint to enter the world again, but she thought it was impossible to stop them. She hoped no one would even try because she thought they would be killed easily.

She tried to stop/kill Gruntle before Trake took complete possession of his body, to save her son from death at the hands of the Eleint. Whether Trake was mortally wounded is up for debate, but it sounded like he left Gruntles body to die somewhere on his own.

This post has been edited by Asharak: 01 October 2011 - 09:30 AM