[foolio]

Ok, I am horribly confused about gruntles ending story line. I am going to jumble some questions and comments and would love ridicule, answers, or any sort of wisdom someone can lend me.



Was Kilava the black panther he kept seeing in the dream world? Was she raped as he thought?

Kilava was responsible for destroying the Kettle Azath, right? She killed it on purpose to...force her children into the world?


How did he fight Kilava to a standstill? I mean, we see other mortal swords who are not that tough(krughava gets taken out by a weasel with a knife both intellectually and physically), Kilava seems to think of herself as on par with the badest of the bad. The errant seems scared of her.


What happened to the deseased dead warriors gruntl picks up in the dream world that he had trake heal? Was their something significant about the dudes the immediately set upon and killed. It seemed like they were with gruntle one second and were going to play a part, then they were gone.


What was gruntles motivation for fighting Kilava? Could he have stopped the dragons from coming through the gate. Kilava enables this? shouldnt draconus now kill her? Why did the dragons(Eleint) ignore her and not kill her?


I saw on another thread that Trake was dead, is this true?

What exactly did Trake want gruntle to do at the gate. It seems like he was drawn there but I dont know why. Kilava had no intention of stopping them so I dont know why she bothered to stay there in the first place.



This whole story arc made no sense to me, I am hoping someone can make sense of it, and sorry about the rambling statements. I did think it was cool and to find out that Kilava was Trakes mother but the rest just confuses me.

This post has been edited by foolio: 02 June 2011 - 07:56 PM

[Blend]

As I understand it, Gruntle went to the gate because Trake wanted him to try to stop the Azath from dying / stop from throwing open the gates to Starvald Demelain.

Kilava, if I remember correctly, wanted the dragons from coming through and destroying everything, which is why she let the Azath die.

Gruntle wanted to go in order to battle someone who would be his match, dragging Trake into the mortal world and getting him killed as a punishment for using humans without asking.

Someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but those are the main points of that storyline as far as I remember.

[Abyss]

HERE'S HOW I SAW IT...

Kilava is revealed to be Trake's mom.

The Refugium Azath is dying, which will open the gate to Starvald Demelain.

All the feral dragons who have been stuck in SD will bust through when the gate opens and proceed to do bad stuff everywhere.

Knowing this, Kilava evcuates the Refugium, but plans to remain herself and try to hold back the dragons. This is more or less suicide, although she insists it isn't to Onrack and co.

Kilava draws on her kin link to Trake for help.

With visions and urges, Trake forces his mortal sword Gruntle to travel to Kilava's side. All those images of awful things happening to Kilava were Trake being subtle.

Gruntle, however, has been chaffing against being Trake's MS since day one. Being forced to leave people he cares about (Setoc, the TTG folks, the kids) to run to what is essentially a useless and futile battle, and gnerally pissed off at the concept of 'war' from the insight Trake gives him, Gruntle fights Trake's influence HARD.

We see this in how emo he gets on his way to Kilava.

By the time Gruntle gets to the Refugium, all he wants to do is die and take Trake with him.

So rather than stand side by side with Kilava and die gloriously as Trake wants, Gruntle tries to pull hard on his link Trake and have them both die against the dragons.

Kilava realizes that Gruntle will try and kill her son and fights to stop him. She beats Gruntle, but barely, because Gruntle was in fact THAT badass.

The dragons come through, ignoring Kilava.

[Hocknose]

What confuses me is that Trake/Treach was supposed a first hero of the HUMAN first empire, now we find out that he was at least half Imass. That kind of takes away a bit of the badassery for me as he had a very helping hand in the fact Kilava was his mother...

This post has been edited by Hocknose: 03 June 2011 - 08:48 AM

[foolio]

am I the only one who sees this as somewhat nonsensical? Gruntle is close to killing the first dragon through but kilava basically sideswipes him and helps the dragon. Gruntle even thinks that killing that one dragon in the small cave could somewhat block the portal and make it tough for swarms of dragons to come through. Kilava does nothing to even remotely slow the dragons down. It seemed like she wanted the dragons to storm into the world and wipe out humanity...It seemed like her only purpose was to keep anyone from fighting the dragons. I was completely scratching my head at all of this.

Erikson makes it seem like she is opposing the dragons , but all of her actions speak otherwise.

what actually killed trake, I dont remember him fighting at all?

It is odd that Kilava was a first (human) hero's mother, but it would at least explain why she was lurking around the scene of his "death".



Thanks for the replies so far.

This post has been edited by foolio: 03 June 2011 - 01:15 PM

[Abyss]

To be clear... there is no denying this is one of the most unclear storylines in the book and i'm rationalizing to certain extent ...

Hocknose, on 03 June 2011 - 08:47 AM, said:

What confuses me is that Trake/Treach was supposed a first hero of the HUMAN first empire, now we find out that he was at least half Imass. That kind of takes away a bit of the badassery for me as he had a very helping hand in the fact Kilava was his mother...

Trake was a First Hero at the time of the Human First Empire, but it's never ever stated that he's human.

Also confuses his relationship with his 'brother', Ryllandaras, altho that may have been brotherhood via shapeshifting, not blood.

foolio, on 03 June 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

am I the only one who sees this as somewhat nonsensical?

Believe me you aren't.

Quote

Gruntle is close to killing the first dragon through but kilava basically sideswipes him and helps the dragon. ...what actually killed trake, I dont remember him fighting at all?

gruntle had yanked Trake into himself. If he went head to head with the dragons and died, Trake was going to die with him and THAT's why Kilava took Gruntle out.

Quote

It is odd that Kilava was a first (human) hero's mother, but it would at least explain why she was lurking around the scene of his "death".

we don't actually know that Trake was human or half-human of wholly Imass, only that he was active at the time of the HFE.

Quote

Thanks for the replies so far.

It's an interesting subject. Tnx for starting it.

[foolio]

you have helped my brain significantly with that reply, thanks Abyss.

Quote

gruntle had yanked Trake into himself. If he went head to head with the dragons and died, Trake was going to die with him and THAT's why Kilava took Gruntle out.

but didnt her taking him out do just that...kill trake?

Any clue what happened to the posse of deseased dead people he aquired?

This post has been edited by foolio: 03 June 2011 - 02:10 PM

[Abyss]

foolio, on 03 June 2011 - 02:05 PM, said:

...but didnt her taking him out do just that...kill trake?

Nope. It's stated fairly clearly that Trake withdrew.

Quote

Any clue what happened to the posse of deseased dead people he aquired?

I think he used them up as a power boost. I don't recall the exact description but it was something like that.

[Midnight]

I think the deceased warriors were merged into the Tiger form with Gruntle and then died when he died.

My thought about Kilava was that she had killed the Azath to allow the dragons into the world in order to stop Korabas.

[foolio]

Quote

Nope. It's stated fairly clearly that Trake withdrew.

so , Trake is alive?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

foolio, on 03 June 2011 - 06:43 PM, said:

Quote

Nope. It's stated fairly clearly that Trake withdrew.

so , Trake is alive?

I'm fairly sure that Abyss is right and Gruntle took Treach down with him. In fact, I think Kilava even comments on how she'll mourn for Gruntle but not give a damm for her son.

[worry]

As far as Trake being "half-Imass" or whatever, I don't think that's even necessary. It's stated a few times over the course of the series that Kilava is the mother of humans. I know we've all had our debates on whether the Imass are the true parents of humanity or only culturally so, while the Eres are the genetic parents. I kinda think it's both, or neither, or something else. I dunno, but I don't think it's as clean as we'd like it to be in terms of order of succession. I think when Kilava and Onrack have a baby, it's Imass, but who's to say if Kilava mothered a child with an Eres father, little humans wouldn't pop out? Or that Kilava couldn't, with all her powers, shape a new species of her own will? In other words, Trake can be the son of Kilava and still be more or less human.

[Capetown]

There is some heavy foreshadowing in Trake's dying scene with Kilava in MOI (bantam paperback, 2002 edition, pages 316 and 318).

First that Kilava is Trake's mother:

She appeared before him, sleek and muscled and smooth-skinned. A woman, small yet not frail, the fur of a panther on her shoulders, her long black hair unkempt yet gleaming in the day's dying light. Almond shaped eyes, amber like his own. Heart-shaped face, robustly featured. Coarse queen, why does this sight of you break my heart?


Second that Trake will meet Kilava again in her soletaken form:

Ah, then we shall meet again? I would wish it. I would see you, once more, as the midnight panther.

This post has been edited by Capetown: 06 June 2011 - 12:35 PM

[Goaswerfraiejen]

It was pretty clear to me when I was reading that Kilava didn't care one whit for Trake, that she told the Imass she'd help delay the dragon explosion, and when Gruntle got there he saw/realized that she was actually just making sure they could get through (and so he tried to stop her, called on Trake, and got fucked up).

What was unclear was the 'why' underpinning everything. The conclusion to this story arc made no sense whatsoever, and was clearly rushed (like many of the arcs that were concluded--Erikson should have taken up one more novel instead).

[foolio]

something else I never understood, when silchas and crew went into Starval Demelain(in Reapers Gale), it seemed like all the elient were dead and Silchas and posse faced no resistance. And they easily went through the gate to the refugium, if the elient were alive and there all along why didnt they just go through then or prior. So confused.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Because the Bonecaster's soul was still keeping the gate shut but was failing, thus the Azath. Them that failed too

[Abyss]

I think there are three separate but related points here...

The aspected dragons and/or mixed bloods forced the eleint back into Starvald Demelain and sealed the gate behind them, likely as part of K'rul's ritual or subsequent to it.

The Bonecaster sealed the human First Empire gates to keep the shapeshifters from spreading.

The Kettle/Scabby Finnest Azath house 'anchored' the Refugium and provided access to the warrens, but the FE and SD gates stayed closed.


The refugium formed in a corner of SD, given form by the Bonecaster's Imass clan's souls. It existed at the border of SD, so when the eleint/mixed bloods gate opened, the dragons came spilling through there.

If we really wanted to speculate, one might guess that the First Empire gates between colonies were 'cracks' in the seales SD gate.

The Azath was 'grown' in the Bonecaster's portal room. So the two were linked. The FE gate and the Azath failed at the same time, opening the SD gate.


My head hurts.

[Shansteeth]

this is one of the most confusing for me.



As far as when I was reading it, it appeared to me that for some unkown reason Kilava WANTED the dragons to come through. It has been a while, but I suppose that is easily explained away since Kilava would be strong enough to be aware that Korabas was free. If Gruntle had somehow succeded in blocking the gate and preventing the dragons from coming through, Korabas would not of had any incentive to allow herself to be chained again.


Korabas is like an abused child, strangely a lot like tcg. Abused, without any understanding of WHY, and may not even comprehend that her lashing out is causing as much destruction, and in fact the chaos it is inflicinting, perhaps, brings a respite from the pain as the only beings who could understand what she is suffering are others who are suffering. She clearly does not understand why she has to be alone or why she was tormented the way she was.


Still - while I was reading the Gruntle v Kilava passages, I didn't feel like Kilava was doing it out of any deep understanding..it almost felt like she had lost some sort of faith and almost was welcoming the destruction the dragons would bring(implying she didnt think they would be stopped once through)

[weaverbird05]

Was she even really "drawing" Gruntle to the cave/warrens gate? I thought that it was mentioned that the visions she was sending him the entire time was of his own burnt and destroyed corpse after the battle that he could not win, which he thought to be of her panther form because it was burnt black and twisted beyond recognition. He could tell that the "sending" or "vision" was from her, so he just assumed that it was a plea for help, and not the warning that it was. Then again, I could be totally mis-remembering it!

[Abyss]

foolio, on 06 June 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

something else I never understood, when silchas and crew went into Starval Demelain(in Reapers Gale), it seemed like all the elient were dead and Silchas and posse faced no resistance. And they easily went through the gate to the refugium, if the elient were alive and there all along why didnt they just go through then or prior. So confused.

Early in TCG, edgewalker and Cots discuss how the dragons' bodies are just tools they can reactivate whenever they want, so those dragons weren't dead, they were "just resting". [/monty python]

Silch and co used a small KG gate. There wasn't time or power enough for the Eleint to pile through.

When the Azath died, the Refugium was wide open to SD and the dragons could pile thru, although it was still narrow enough for one powerful shapeshifter to hold them... if he wasn't busy fighting another powerful shapeshifter.