[Dolmen 2.0]

just started watching thriller bark arc and i have to say the jump from manga to anime blows my mind! Thanks amph, rhulad. Your suggestions were right on the money.

Also Started watching nishegamontari. Excellent artwork and animation. Makes the story jump out at you and the jokes are funny at so many levels its kinda impressive.

[LinearPhilosopher]

Silencer, on 10 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm just gonna point out one little concern here: "Shounen series", as you refer to them, is a ENTIRE DEMOGRAPHIC. I assume you are referring to the 'generic, filled-with-filler and POWER LEVEL OVER 9000!!!!' set of series, not the entire shonen catalogue!

I say this, because things like Fullmetal Alchemist, Neon Genesis Evangelion, and plenty of other decent shows are shonen by nature. I know you specified 'generic shonen crap that litters mainstream anime', but even so. And let's not forget that you are ranking Dragonball up there, which as you say, started all that 'generic shonen crap'. XD


I can't speak for One Piece, as I haven't watched it yet, but your response really seems quite over the top to me - bearing in mind we're discussing how much people like something this is a very subjective matter. If Sindriss thinks OP is that unique, he's entitled to that opinion, and entitled to share that opinion, same as you're entitled to contradict him...but really...overdose of fangasm from other sites aside, is that scale of response really warranted? :S

Shounen is a demographic, but it's also a genre. Examples of this would be: big 3, dragon ball, FMA, NGE, busou renkin, hitman reborn, blue exorcist, black cat, hunter x hunter etc.... Yes there's a demographic, yes there a magazine, but im not referring to those. Im reffering to the genre.


Dragonball was awesome. So awesome it inspired everything after it. It invented the shounen genre. Consider Dragonball the tolkien of shounen if you will, a first mover . And dragonball had a lot of polish, good arcs and villains. Characters had to train hard for their powerups and you saw them grow. DBZ was when thing started getting over the top, with 5 episodes of charging a spirit bomb. NGE, is a shounen/mecha deconstruction, and for all it's downfall (yes im looking at u shinji) had its good moment, and when you start reading about the various layers of the story you realise how groundbreaking it was. To this day even. Shounen now is overdone, its a cash cow and allows for funding of other projects but there's too much on the market atm.

And OP is merely a refinement of that shounen genre. Its a great series, it hasn't suffered any of its genre's downfalls. But it still shounen. It's not offering anything new on the plate. And i like innovations that go beyond the genre, I like deconstructions, and OP isn't any of those.

I hate fanboyism/fangirlism in any shape or form. I have nothing wrong with people stating they like OP. It's when they start saying stuff like "its erikson level esque" or "best show evar" that my buttons get pushed.

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 10 February 2012 - 04:24 PM

[QuickTidal]

BalrogLord, on 10 February 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

Silencer, on 10 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm just gonna point out one little concern here: "Shounen series", as you refer to them, is a ENTIRE DEMOGRAPHIC. I assume you are referring to the 'generic, filled-with-filler and POWER LEVEL OVER 9000!!!!' set of series, not the entire shonen catalogue!

I say this, because things like Fullmetal Alchemist, Neon Genesis Evangelion, and plenty of other decent shows are shonen by nature. I know you specified 'generic shonen crap that litters mainstream anime', but even so. And let's not forget that you are ranking Dragonball up there, which as you say, started all that 'generic shonen crap'. XD


I can't speak for One Piece, as I haven't watched it yet, but your response really seems quite over the top to me - bearing in mind we're discussing how much people like something this is a very subjective matter. If Sindriss thinks OP is that unique, he's entitled to that opinion, and entitled to share that opinion, same as you're entitled to contradict him...but really...overdose of fangasm from other sites aside, is that scale of response really warranted? :S

Shounen is a demographic, but it's also a genre. Examples of this would be: big 3, dragon ball, FMA, NGE, busou renkin, hitman reborn, blue exorcist, black cat, hunter x hunter etc.... Yes there's a demographic, yes there a magazine, but im not referring to those. Im reffering to the genre.


Dragonball was awesome. So awesome it inspired everything after it. It invented the shounen genre. Consider Dragonball the tolkien of shounen if you will, a first mover . And dragonball had a lot of polish, good arcs and villains. Characters had to train hard for their powerups and you saw them grow. DBZ was when thing started getting over the top, with 5 episodes of charging a spirit bomb. NGE, is a shounen/mecha deconstruction, and for all it's downfall (yes im looking at u shinji) had its good moment, and when you start reading about the various layers of the story you realise how groundbreaking it was. To this day even. Shounen now is overdone, its a cash cow and allows for funding of other projects but there's too much on the market atm.

And OP is merely a refinement of that shounen genre. Its a great series, it hasn't suffered any of its genre's downfalls. But it still shounen. It's not offering anything new on the plate. And i like innovations that go beyond the genre, I like deconstructions, and OP isn't any of those.

I hate fanboyism/fangirlism in any shape or form. I have nothing wrong with people stating they like OP. It's when they start saying stuff like "its erikson level esque" or "best show evar" that my buttons get pushed.

Okay A. Shinji is the lynchpin of the deconstruction you so love in Eva. Without him, acting the way he does, the series ceases to exist. Yeah, he's annoying, and stupid and he can get right down on your nerves...but that's the point. It's ABOUT someone like that being totally disassembled by life around him, beginning with his own disconnected father.

B. ASTRO-BOY (Not DRAGONBALL) was the original Shounen manga/anime. All hail Osamu Tezuka.

C. DRAGONBALL got ridiculous for me at even episode 25. I was not enjoying it at all. It seemed to be pointless. I'll not argue it inspired a certain kind of show. But OP has already done more for me personally. NARUTO was the same, after the first season it just stayed relatively shallow, and there was no reason to go on. I've heard tell the same about BLEACH.

[amphibian]

BalrogLord, on 10 February 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

And OP is merely a refinement of that shounen genre. Its a great series, it hasn't suffered any of its genre's downfalls. But it still shounen. It's not offering anything new on the plate. And i like innovations that go beyond the genre, I like deconstructions, and OP isn't any of those.

I hate fanboyism/fangirlism in any shape or form. I have nothing wrong with people stating they like OP. It's when they start saying stuff like "its erikson level esque" or "best show evar" that my buttons get pushed.

What do you mean by deconstruction?

Perhaps I should explain my comparison of One Piece to the Malazan books, as I think I can frame it in a way that doesn't push your buttons so readily.

What Oda does as an author and storyteller is strikingly similar to what Erikson does - takes a set of characters almost in media res (in the middle of their stories), builds them organically through present plot arcs and flashbacks to past plots and adds or subtracts characters (although with less death and destruction than the Malazan books) and never, ever steps into the trap of not trusting the viewer/reader to understand the subtler jokes, foreshadowing, links and unsaid emotions/backstories. Oda also does convergences very well - the War of the Best arc was stunning in terms of execution and how well it arranged the story to come to a crescendo while setting up key players in the right situations for the continuation of the story.

The first episodes of One Piece have Luffy already setting out to sea - in a barrel - and finding the first member of his crew, while making some lasting enemies and friends. 500 episodes later, Zoro, Coby, Buggy, Usopp and so on still matter, despite the introduction of solid new characters, new plot arcs and the deepening/changing of character goals.

What strikes me as superb and rather like Erikson is that the characters left behind by the main plot arc of the Straw Hat Pirates still have lives and move on of their own accord. We've seen glimpses of the Alabasta crew, CP-9, Enel, everybody back in East Blue, Laboon/Crocus and so on. Oda built a world so vast and so multi-layered that Luffy's struggle to become the Pirate King is but one of many and is opposed or aided by people who equal or surpass the Straw Hats in power, knowledge and positioning.

This reminds me of the journey of Tavore or Fiddler in the Malazan books to a large extent. The convergences, imaginative battles, not begrudging the learning of the history of the Pirate Era and the World Government, being emotionally affected by the motivations and fates of various characters including, but not limited to the Straw Hats and above all, listening to a well-told story that works on multiple levels, with shifting timeframes and exquisite juggling of disparate characters and sub-plots all evoke Erikson and the Malazan books to me. Oda isn't as obvious as Erikson about moralizing, but the characters do deal with racism, class-based warfare, slavery, homophobia and so on - all while entertaining people without sermonizing. Impressive, to say the least.

I don't think that One Piece is as high diddle straight up the middle "shounen" as you claim it to be. That would fit Bleach better with Ichigo being the Chosen One with inexplicable powers that beats every bad guy while the others are largely helpless sidekicks and the story arcs have largely become about making money off the extension of the story rather than telling the story itself. Luffy loses - quite a bit actually and I don't see any halting of the story momentum in One Piece at all. The latest arc has revealed something key to the overall story and has set the Straw Hats up very well for direct conflict with a new and powerful enemy, while showing that Smoker is still after him and that the Marine hierarchy has changed a bit.

[QuickTidal]

Chance, on 09 February 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Fate Zero: probably more less uninteresting for those who havent watched Fate Stay Night but a fairly well done prequel and another case of new anime being awfully good looking. Now if only one didn't have to wait for months for the second half !

Question: Is it worthwhile to watch FATE STAY NIGHT? I only ask because a few years back I picked up two FSN DVD's (essentially the first 8 eps) but I've never watched them. I found the discs when I was cleaning last night. Is it worth getting it the show or not? (Not that I have much time as it is. LOL!)

Just curious. Thanks Chance.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 10 February 2012 - 06:02 PM

[Chance]

QuickTidal, on 10 February 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Chance, on 09 February 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Fate Zero: probably more less uninteresting for those who havent watched Fate Stay Night but a fairly well done prequel and another case of new anime being awfully good looking. Now if only one didn't have to wait for months for the second half !

Question: Is it worthwhile to watch FATE STAY NIGHT? I only ask because a few years back I picked up two FSN DVD's (essentially the first 8 eps) but I've never watched them. I found the discs when I was cleaning last night. Is it worth getting it the show or not? (Not that I have much time as it is. LOL!)

Just curious. Thanks Chance.

It is a reasonably fun action series and good looking for being a few years old by now. It however is adepted game material with at least part highschool setting with young idealistic hero and remnants of harem themes. Its not a top series and not a bottom one pretty much high average one. It might be worth it simply to know what it is, as it is referenced in some anime/manga communites quite frequently still and was very popular at the time.

The second series does away with many/most of the previous series ties to above mentioned troups and has some top notch action and animation but it takes itself a bit too serious now and then.

If you have them the best test is usually to watch three episodes and make ones own judgement With exception of the first episode of the second series which is downright boring the quality is pretty even over the two series...

This post has been edited by Chance: 10 February 2012 - 06:35 PM

[QuickTidal]

So I caught up to Ep 29 of OP, but the Funimation site only had the Subbed eps from 30-86 (for some reason), so I got annoyed and didn't want to wait for those dubs to go back up on the site... and ordered the collection boxed sets that are out...basically eps 27-103. I don't mind the cost for that many eps, and I'm invested in the show now anyways.

[Chance]

Just watch out for the fillers some are truly attrocious and there are quite a few from about ep 50 and forward It ain't long arcs as much as in Bleach or Naruto but mostly episodes in the middle and between arcs and shorter arcs of a few episodes. List of Fillers

This post has been edited by Chance: 12 February 2012 - 12:16 PM

[QuickTidal]

Chance, on 12 February 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Just watch out for the fillers some are truly attrocious and there are quite a few from about ep 50 and forward It ain't long arcs as much as in Bleach or Naruto but mostly episodes in the middle and between arcs and shorter arcs of a few episodes. List of Fillers

Oh awesome, thanks for the list! Good to know. And it looks to be only 4 or 5 in the sets I ordered...so that's not too shabby.

On a separate note: Wanna hear something ridiculous? FMA: BROTHERHOOD Season 1 is $77 on iTunes....but if I buy the BluRay for the first season, it is $29. Sometimes the pricing on iTunes is HORRENDOUS! That said, at least they have a sizable anime section now.

[amphibian]

Chance, on 12 February 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Just watch out for the fillers some are truly attrocious and there are quite a few from about ep 50 and forward It ain't long arcs as much as in Bleach or Naruto but mostly episodes in the middle and between arcs and shorter arcs of a few episodes. List of Fillers

Almost all of those "fillers" are still worth watching. The only ones worth skipping through are the recaps of how people joined the crew.

Edit: Took a further look at the list and the list's creator "Superbuu". The kid is an idiot and his tastes don't align that much with QuickTidal's. I'm not saying I'm that much better at it, but I think he'll enjoy most of the perceived filler.

I have no idea why people hate the Davyback arc so much. It gave us Afro Luffy!

This post has been edited by amphibian: 12 February 2012 - 06:17 PM

[JLV]

Okay, so the reason I wasn't a fan of OP was the only episodes I saw were from the 4kids version. That would explain it. I thought it was boring as shit, even when I was a kid. I suppose I'll have to watch all 500 now.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 12 February 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Chance, on 12 February 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Just watch out for the fillers some are truly attrocious and there are quite a few from about ep 50 and forward It ain't long arcs as much as in Bleach or Naruto but mostly episodes in the middle and between arcs and shorter arcs of a few episodes. List of Fillers

Almost all of those "fillers" are still worth watching. The only ones worth skipping through are the recaps of how people joined the crew.

Edit: Took a further look at the list and the list's creator "Superbuu". The kid is an idiot and his tastes don't align that much with QuickTidal's. I'm not saying I'm that much better at it, but I think he'll enjoy most of the perceived filler.

I have no idea why people hate the Davyback arc so much. It gave us Afro Luffy!

Thanks for the heads up Amph. Yeah, since I've purchased the sets I'll watch all the eps on them, but it will be interesting to see if they seem filler-ish to me or not.

That said, I grew up through the Sailor Moon "Ice-Cream Man Villain" filler episodes. If I can get through those, I can get through anything.

[Chance]

amphibian, on 12 February 2012 - 06:16 PM, said:

Chance, on 12 February 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

Just watch out for the fillers some are truly attrocious and there are quite a few from about ep 50 and forward It ain't long arcs as much as in Bleach or Naruto but mostly episodes in the middle and between arcs and shorter arcs of a few episodes. List of Fillers

Almost all of those "fillers" are still worth watching. The only ones worth skipping through are the recaps of how people joined the crew.

Edit: Took a further look at the list and the list's creator "Superbuu". The kid is an idiot and his tastes don't align that much with QuickTidal's. I'm not saying I'm that much better at it, but I think he'll enjoy most of the perceived filler.

I have no idea why people hate the Davyback arc so much. It gave us Afro Luffy!

Id still keep an eye out for the filler arcs even if I'd intent to watch them...its useful to know why the mainstory took a 4-5 episode paus or decended into rather poor comedy and why the current arc is about something completly unrelated to the episode/arc before-after.

[amphibian]

JLV, on 12 February 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

Okay, so the reason I wasn't a fan of OP was the only episodes I saw were from the 4kids version. That would explain it. I thought it was boring as shit, even when I was a kid. I suppose I'll have to watch all 500 now.

"Yeah, if I'm going to watch, I'm IN IT TO THE MAX!!!"

This Daily Lives of High School Boys thing is pretty funny. The Hideyo Noguchi reference is deep as I've ever seen from Archer or other cartoons that love tossing off really obscure jokes.

[LinearPhilosopher]

QuickTidal, on 10 February 2012 - 06:01 PM, said:

Chance, on 09 February 2012 - 07:31 PM, said:

Fate Zero: probably more less uninteresting for those who havent watched Fate Stay Night but a fairly well done prequel and another case of new anime being awfully good looking. Now if only one didn't have to wait for months for the second half !

Question: Is it worthwhile to watch FATE STAY NIGHT? I only ask because a few years back I picked up two FSN DVD's (essentially the first 8 eps) but I've never watched them. I found the discs when I was cleaning last night. Is it worth getting it the show or not? (Not that I have much time as it is. LOL!)

Just curious. Thanks Chance.

F/SN is average i'd say. If you're looking for a time killer i'd say yes as it is an enjoyable watch, but if your time is limited i'd hold off. There are better things to do with your time. Now if you have any interest in the fate series though i would watch Fate Zero. It's currently on hiatus and will be resuming sometime during the 2nd quarter, so you'll have ample time to catch up (13 episodes i believe). The first two episodes are a bit slow and exposition heavy but it was designed for those who haven't watched F/SN

QuickTidal, on 10 February 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

BalrogLord, on 10 February 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

Silencer, on 10 February 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

Whoa whoa whoa. I'm just gonna point out one little concern here: "Shounen series", as you refer to them, is a ENTIRE DEMOGRAPHIC. I assume you are referring to the 'generic, filled-with-filler and POWER LEVEL OVER 9000!!!!' set of series, not the entire shonen catalogue!

I say this, because things like Fullmetal Alchemist, Neon Genesis Evangelion, and plenty of other decent shows are shonen by nature. I know you specified 'generic shonen crap that litters mainstream anime', but even so. And let's not forget that you are ranking Dragonball up there, which as you say, started all that 'generic shonen crap'. XD


I can't speak for One Piece, as I haven't watched it yet, but your response really seems quite over the top to me - bearing in mind we're discussing how much people like something this is a very subjective matter. If Sindriss thinks OP is that unique, he's entitled to that opinion, and entitled to share that opinion, same as you're entitled to contradict him...but really...overdose of fangasm from other sites aside, is that scale of response really warranted? :S

Shounen is a demographic, but it's also a genre. Examples of this would be: big 3, dragon ball, FMA, NGE, busou renkin, hitman reborn, blue exorcist, black cat, hunter x hunter etc.... Yes there's a demographic, yes there a magazine, but im not referring to those. Im reffering to the genre.


Dragonball was awesome. So awesome it inspired everything after it. It invented the shounen genre. Consider Dragonball the tolkien of shounen if you will, a first mover . And dragonball had a lot of polish, good arcs and villains. Characters had to train hard for their powerups and you saw them grow. DBZ was when thing started getting over the top, with 5 episodes of charging a spirit bomb. NGE, is a shounen/mecha deconstruction, and for all it's downfall (yes im looking at u shinji) had its good moment, and when you start reading about the various layers of the story you realise how groundbreaking it was. To this day even. Shounen now is overdone, its a cash cow and allows for funding of other projects but there's too much on the market atm.

And OP is merely a refinement of that shounen genre. Its a great series, it hasn't suffered any of its genre's downfalls. But it still shounen. It's not offering anything new on the plate. And i like innovations that go beyond the genre, I like deconstructions, and OP isn't any of those.

I hate fanboyism/fangirlism in any shape or form. I have nothing wrong with people stating they like OP. It's when they start saying stuff like "its erikson level esque" or "best show evar" that my buttons get pushed.

Okay A. Shinji is the lynchpin of the deconstruction you so love in Eva. Without him, acting the way he does, the series ceases to exist. Yeah, he's annoying, and stupid and he can get right down on your nerves...but that's the point. It's ABOUT someone like that being totally disassembled by life around him, beginning with his own disconnected father.

B. ASTRO-BOY (Not DRAGONBALL) was the original Shounen manga/anime. All hail Osamu Tezuka.

C. DRAGONBALL got ridiculous for me at even episode 25. I was not enjoying it at all. It seemed to be pointless. I'll not argue it inspired a certain kind of show. But OP has already done more for me personally. NARUTO was the same, after the first season it just stayed relatively shallow, and there was no reason to go on. I've heard tell the same about BLEACH.

SHinji could have been handled much much differentely. All the characters were personifications of various types of mental disorders as they were understood at the time. If he had chosen a different kidn of Schizoid shinji would have been much more bearable, as an example: Asuka was just as messed up of a character but she wasn't as obnoxious and epcept at the end usually confronts her problems, Yeah i get the point about shinji being a deconstruction in of itself, but i can get past that. It's the poorly explained and confusing story that caught my eye. After doing a fair amount of reading i saw just how big anno's imagination was.


Well shit astro boy really? well that just collapsed most of my argument.

You're right about bleach and naruto. Bleach stopped being good after the end of the Second arc. Naruto, there's sasuke... I was watching and reading dragonball as a kid, and it did it job well. Now i found DB story rather immersive (as a child) and was generally creative. Now after reading the other posts, ill admit that OP is a definiete improvement over DB, and therefore better, but it's still limited in the fact it doesn't move beyond it's genre. It stays at the limit of it's genre and accomplishes great things within it. It may be the epitome of the genre, but it doesn't go beyond it. Things that go beyond is what i'm seeking as a definition of Great quality.

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 13 February 2012 - 08:37 PM

[rhulad]

Have any of you watched Great Teacher Onizuka? It's a comedy/drama and if you're into that sort of thing you should check it out.

[amphibian]

BalrogLord, on 13 February 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

SHinji could have been handled much much differentely. All the characters were personifications of various types of mental disorders as they were understood at the time. If he had chosen a different kidn of Schizoid shinji would have been much more bearable, as an example: Asuka was just as messed up of a character but she wasn't as obnoxious and epcept at the end usually confronts her problems, Yeah i get the point about shinji being a deconstruction in of itself, but i can get past that. It's the poorly explained and confusing story that caught my eye. After doing a fair amount of reading i saw just how big anno's imagination was.

For me, the movie Shinji was more bearable. I think the writers and animators figured out how to get the self-enforced loneliness atmosphere across better in less time there with various short conversations and images. The story is still kind of non-sensical, but it's merely a device to explore themes and ideas. Once I made my peace with that, the movies got easier to watch. Too bad they still haven't figured out how to do both at the same time: deliver a coherent, organically flowing story that explores the themes and ideas to the depth that they want.

Quote

Now after reading the other posts, ill admit that OP is a definiete improvement over DB, and therefore better, but it's still limited in the fact it doesn't move beyond it's genre. It stays at the limit of it's genre and accomplishes great things within it. It may be the epitome of the genre, but it doesn't go beyond it. Things that go beyond is what i'm seeking as a definition of Great quality.

I can see that perception of One Piece as staying within a specific genre - the action/adventure with a motley crew that eventually takes on the Machine/Big Military-Industrial Complex and wins - but I don't think that prevents it from being great with a capital "G".

Take nearly the entirety of Joss Whedon's career: Buffy, Angel, Firefly, Dollhouse. Two and a half of those shows reached pop culture immortality by being exactly the same type of story as One Piece - albeit set in a vampire/monsters universe or in space in an alternate future universe. I believe Whedon and Oda are able to balance the meta-story with the multiple episodic arcs in a way that allows people to watch a couple of the most recent episodes and not be turned away by an onslaught of in-jokes or things that only make sense in context with what has gone before, while still rewarding those who've paid attention all along.

[A friend of mine who hadn't seen any One Piece saw one episode in the Return to Saobady Archipelago arc and liked it, so the long explanations at the start must be worth something beyond pissing off the long time followers like me who just want to get to the story.]

I suspect that Cowboy Bebop is better in an episode for episode comparison, but that show ran 26 episodes and a movie. One Piece looks like it's going to hit 1000 some episodes and spawn off a dozen plus movies. They're aiming for different things and achieving those things well. It's like rating Batman Begins in comparison to Memento. One is a work with an established commercial property with mass appeal and several sequels that still ends up being a great movie and entertaining the crowds. The other is an exploration of themes and narrative structure that ended up being a great movie and reaching a fair amount of people. They're both trying to do different things and rating them in comparison to each other is to do a disservice to each other - despite Christopher Nolan being the common director.

The cool thing about being a consumer or an appreciator of artistic endeavors is that each one of us gets to pick and choose what we like best. You may like Memento more than Batman Begins/The Dark Knight/The Dark Knight Rises and someone else may like the converse. Neither of you would be wrong (I actually like Memento more than all the Batman movies) and I think the same applies to One Piece and the other Japanese manga/anime you are touting here. I really like Oda's brand of mass appeal, while still loving Cowboy Bebop et. al's shorter runs.

Cool discussion. Thanks for not blowing your stack and going all ZOMG YOU DELUDED FOOL on me.

[QuickTidal]

amphibian, on 13 February 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

BalrogLord, on 13 February 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

SHinji could have been handled much much differentely. All the characters were personifications of various types of mental disorders as they were understood at the time. If he had chosen a different kidn of Schizoid shinji would have been much more bearable, as an example: Asuka was just as messed up of a character but she wasn't as obnoxious and epcept at the end usually confronts her problems, Yeah i get the point about shinji being a deconstruction in of itself, but i can get past that. It's the poorly explained and confusing story that caught my eye. After doing a fair amount of reading i saw just how big anno's imagination was.

For me, the movie Shinji was more bearable. I think the writers and animators figured out how to get the self-enforced loneliness atmosphere across better in less time there with various short conversations and images. The story is still kind of non-sensical, but it's merely a device to explore themes and ideas. Once I made my peace with that, the movies got easier to watch. Too bad they still haven't figured out how to do both at the same time: deliver a coherent, organically flowing story that explores the themes and ideas to the depth that they want.

A very succinct way of summing up the problems with Eva. But yeah, Shinji really is just a caricature of the loneliness and disconnected-from-society nature of Anno himself and his depression. He doesn't quite fit all the time and he certainly stands out as two sides of the coin when it comes to the storytelling, which Amph is correct, is never fluid as it tries to be two things at once and never fully gels (though that's one of my reasons for loving it, because it's simply such a broken way of storytelling). As long as you know that Shinji is less a character and more of a gelatinous animated form of depression that seems to exist since he needs to exist.

The reason Asuka comes across in a better form is because she's not the lynchpin. Asuka is a catalyst, as are Rei, Toji, Mistao, Kaji and even Gendo. They all exist to push Shinji over the edge. They exist so that Anno had a way to paint his own bitter, depression onto the screen and tell a story about themes and ideas (as Amph points out) about that state of being. So none of those other characters could successfully do what Shinji does simply because of how he's kind of a non-character.

Man, the more I discuss Eva the further convoluted and confused I get. LOL

Oh and speaking about Anno: Apparently he will be writing a new Studio Ghibli project in the near future (he hasn't worked with them since he was an animator on Nausicca Valley of the Wind), so that's kind of interesting. Hell, anything will be better than his live action Cutey Honey film was.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 February 2012 - 04:46 PM

[Chance]

amphibian, on 13 February 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

I can see that perception of One Piece as staying within a specific genre - the action/adventure with a motley crew that eventually takes on the Machine/Big Military-Industrial Complex and wins - but I don't think that prevents it from being great with a capital "G".

Now I'm aware that OP is a comedy much of the time and comedy can theoretically be Great possibly proven by the likes of Ouran Host Club and Melancholy...at the same time...

The perception is probably (at least in my case) a question of the limits of what can be shown in show and how it must be shown to keep within genre. There are serious themes of violence, loss and such things in OP at the same time the show can't really keep up the seriousness or portray the violence/death/destruction as anything too bad or the fun would go out and alienate the "regular target audience" nor can the protagonists be faced with some of the consequences because damn they are our heroes. Now its not necessary for most shows to face such things in fact most shows won't but a great show should at least touch upon consequences of serious actions and probably especially violence a bit more often and not make it too pretty.

Which really probably the core of why I reacted to the comparison to Erikson thought there are obvious parallels in other parts, trivilising or idealizing violence is pretty common in media today and many seem to enjoy it (I certainly enjoy a good popcorn action or brainless assassin/swordhacking/spy novel now and then). A good author, movie maker and so on is at least for me someone who doesnt just deliver good action and a laugh but make us face, think about or at least glimps the reality of such stuff in all its ugliness. In One Pice the topics arise but they are shown in the same way most of the show is, in a way is far from death and destruction in reality.

Very minor spoiler for the Water 7 arc

Spoiler

Making the strawhats walk into franky house and declare that they are going to trash the place and everyone inside in revenge is a cool scene but had they shown what that meant in bonebreaking detail I'm pretty sure we'd think less of the strawhats.

However a comedy and garishly slightly silly execution instead make our heroes appear just as heroic as we want them to be thought in reality they just crippled a few dozen people and destroyed their home . This is one of the reasons I put up berserker as an alternative somewhere above is that its one of several series which don't take such shortcuts the heroes are violent, flawed people and even killing monsters ain't pretty and the hero buisness probably isn't something which doesn't scar the heroes back even when they win. It ain't necessarily as fun but if we want entertainment violence the authors should make us face some of the downsides at least the great ones.

And at the same time I can't say anything but that I'm going to enjoy watching the second half of the Water 7 arc later it certainly is approaching great.

This post has been edited by Chance: 13 February 2012 - 07:11 PM

[amphibian]

I do think that's one area where One Piece stumbles - in the treatment of violence. In the manga, it's clear that physical damage happens more often, people die more often and the blood comes out more. In the anime, they tiptoe around that a bit and it does weaken the show to some extent. A trip through the Grand Line isn't going to be done non-violently, especially with the historical setting and motivations of the One Piece characters.

There are moments in One Piece where the main characters do directly face loss from war and violence - but they are mostly after Water7, which is a long ways into the series. Looking back on the show from the present day reveals a growing willingness to deal with that issue and with showing people recovering and dealing with the costs of violence, but it's still nowhere near the Beserk levels you mention (I'm not very familiar with that series yet) or Evangelion levels (in which people die or get hurt all the time).

Part of that probably stems from a reluctance to really challenge those negative nabobs who freak out over violence and depicting the real costs of that violence, even when it's smartly and tastefully done. I think kids can understand the concept that violence has costs pretty early on and protecting them from that isn't a great idea - just like protecting them from nudity isn't going to encourage healthy sexual or gender attitudes and beliefs.

It's a weird thing that for One Piece to show blood seeping down is not going to fly, but for it to deal extensively with trans/cross-dressers and having lots of references to sexual ambiguity or lust are fine. Oh well, at least it's progressive in a few areas.