[presumingpete]

but I remember a passage in the book where it is mentioned that stormy and gesler are close to godhood but were fighting desperately to remain themselves, just wondering why godhood instead of ascendancy? does their deaths mean that they will become Gods or ascend or just head on over to hang with the bridgeburners?

I like to think they become the new god's of war. as two members of one of the previous gods war's house, who is better suited than two experienced soldiers with a dislike of war?

[Sanctume]

I don't think Stormy and Gesler are part of the Bridgeburners. IIRC, they were part of the 7 Cities garrison when the Raraku/Whirlwind happened.

They also did not want to ascend or become gods. I think it's because they want to remain themselves--as human mortals.

I mean, the way I see it, waht if they become gods of war. Do they want to hear the pleas and suffering of fallen soldiers in their names? There just won't be "peace" in that.

[random marine doomed to die]

In class so I can't quote anything right now. Not a part of the Bridgeburners, Stormy was Adjuntant Stormy in the Old Guard and Gesler was a high ranking officer (fist/high fist?). IMO they are in the land of the dead (Hoods old realm) because they want to be.
Also remember Truth, not even a whisper of him after he died. Not with the Bridgeburners, no worshipers (that we see at least), no contact with Gesler and Stormy.
O crap the profes

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think the fate of stormy and gesler will be either left completely up to our imagination, or only mentioned tangentally. i really hope that they don't become gods, because then they would become what their worshippers want them to be, and any change to the irreverent bastards i know and love is a bad change.

the difference with the brideburners is they were legendary before they ascended. they were already romanticized so much that the legend barely matched the reality, especially near the end.

[Sudden Benjamin]

I dunno, dying or 'dying' seems to be a pretty standard method of ascension, see Trake (maybe Cotillion/Shadowthrone? haven't read Es's books yet) Iktovian, and a coupla others

Erikson doesnt tend to let his best characters just fade off like that

maybe in a later novel?

[Abyss]

Ascension and godhood can be used fairly interchangeably depending on the context.

The underlying point was that after being apsected or semi-aspected to Fener (pre-DG), broiled in Kurald Thyrllan (DG), spending quality time on the Silanna (HoC, TB), surviving Raraku (Gesler in TB), 'healed' by Beak (RG) and then aspected to the power of all the surviving k'chain che'malle in the world (DoD), Stormy and Gesler were more than human and struggling to hang on to their remaining humanity.

The fact that they were still struggling with it suggests their deaths were permanent, not another step along the way.

[Jingospice]

 Sudden Benjamin, on 06 June 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

I dunno, dying or 'dying' seems to be a pretty standard method of ascension, see Trake (maybe Cotillion/Shadowthrone? haven't read Es's books yet) Iktovian, and a coupla others

Erikson doesnt tend to let his best characters just fade off like that

maybe in a later novel?

Except for Rake, and Draconus, and Dassem. It seems that ascendants either become gods (like cotillion/shadowthrone/dassem) or just become demigods i.e Rake/Draconus but dont need to die. But god or demi god isn't directly related to power i wouldn't think. Rake and Draconus aren't stated as being gods, but they are capable of killing beings who are stated as gods.

So to answer the original question ascension could have meant mean god-hood for Stormy and Gesler the same way it meant god-hood for shadowthrone and cotillion. But as someone stated earlier, Truth died and we never hear from him again.

[Shansteeth]

 Jingospice, on 06 June 2011 - 05:05 PM, said:

 Sudden Benjamin, on 06 June 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

I dunno, dying or 'dying' seems to be a pretty standard method of ascension, see Trake (maybe Cotillion/Shadowthrone? haven't read Es's books yet) Iktovian, and a coupla others

Erikson doesnt tend to let his best characters just fade off like that

maybe in a later novel?

Except for Rake, and Draconus, and Dassem. It seems that ascendants either become gods (like cotillion/shadowthrone/dassem) or just become demigods i.e Rake/Draconus but dont need to die. But god or demi god isn't directly related to power i wouldn't think. Rake and Draconus aren't stated as being gods, but they are capable of killing beings who are stated as gods.

So to answer the original question ascension could have meant mean god-hood for Stormy and Gesler the same way it meant god-hood for shadowthrone and cotillion. But as someone stated earlier, Truth died and we never hear from him again.

Hmmm I was originally going to say that to be a God neccesarily means you are ascended, but you can be ascended without being a God. Then I got to thinking. Rake is/was worshipped as a God. Draconus certainly was at one point in time. Icarium is worshipped as a God.

I was sure there were ascended beings that were not "Gods' - Trake came to mind, but I recall mention that people did worship him as a first hero. So now I am considering.



Perhaps the fine line between Ascended and being a God is how many worship you, or perhaps how many have worshipped you in the past?


Just spitballing - not real sure if I even think this is possibly related at all.

[mayhem]

 Shansteeth, on 07 June 2011 - 12:53 AM, said:

 Jingospice, on 06 June 2011 - 05:05 PM, said:

 Sudden Benjamin, on 06 June 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

I dunno, dying or 'dying' seems to be a pretty standard method of ascension, see Trake (maybe Cotillion/Shadowthrone? haven't read Es's books yet) Iktovian, and a coupla others

Erikson doesnt tend to let his best characters just fade off like that

maybe in a later novel?

Except for Rake, and Draconus, and Dassem. It seems that ascendants either become gods (like cotillion/shadowthrone/dassem) or just become demigods i.e Rake/Draconus but dont need to die. But god or demi god isn't directly related to power i wouldn't think. Rake and Draconus aren't stated as being gods, but they are capable of killing beings who are stated as gods.

So to answer the original question ascension could have meant mean god-hood for Stormy and Gesler the same way it meant god-hood for shadowthrone and cotillion. But as someone stated earlier, Truth died and we never hear from him again.

Hmmm I was originally going to say that to be a God neccesarily means you are ascended, but you can be ascended without being a God. Then I got to thinking. Rake is/was worshipped as a God. Draconus certainly was at one point in time. Icarium is worshipped as a God.

I was sure there were ascended beings that were not "Gods' - Trake came to mind, but I recall mention that people did worship him as a first hero. So now I am considering.



Perhaps the fine line between Ascended and being a God is how many worship you, or perhaps how many have worshipped you in the past?


Just spitballing - not real sure if I even think this is possibly related at all.

To steal my post from the Re-read.

The easiest way to deal with it for now is the logical simplification that All Gods are Ascendants, but not all Ascendants are Gods.
It doesn't actually work that way, but it helps (see #1)

It sort of runs on a scale similar to ancient mythology
* Ordinary mortal (for varying levels of ordinary)
* Powerful mortal (eg. your average mage, shaman or named Tiste)
* Ascendant (Demigod, has attained powers beyond ordinary warren usage, eg. Envy, Caladan Brood, the various Soletaken)
* Lesser God (the newest gods, still finding out the limits of their powers, eg Shadowthrone, the First Heros like Treach or Ryllandaras)
* God (standard powerful deity, evolved from modern worship, eg. Beru, Mowri)
* Elder God (deity that has been around a *long* time, predates the warrens as we know them, tied to more primitive forms of worship, eg Mael, K'rul, Draconus)
Elemental Forces (eg. Mother Dark)

Most people we see mentioned as Ascendants who haven't gone further to full on Godhood appear to have intentionally refrained, for deliberate reasons. One factor is that to be a God entails having worshippers which grants additional power, but the worshippers in turn can impose controls on what that god can do, and can siphon off that power to their own ends (eg. Mael & the Jhistal). Many of the more notable Ascendants actively discourage worship.

#1 We later find out much more of the shifting paths of the pantheon, and the origins of some of the more powerful members. Also Elder races may sidestep the whole process.
Elder Gods and Elemental Forces often also sidestep the process, they generally evolved from concepts, rather than from people assuming a mantle. Eg, Mael is the elemental force of the seas, not someone who decided to assume the position, unlike Shadowthrone. Hood on the other hand appears to have taken over the Throne of Death, but it is never made clear what was there beforehand, just that the Jaghut fought against it.

It is however explicitly stated that there are many paths to ascension - as a quick spread, Itkovian gets worshipped, Treach becomes a soletaken, Rake is the firstborn of a God, Kellanved exploits a backdoor and sits on a throne, Paran becomes the MoTD, Stormy & Gesler sail through a warren of Fire. Only one of those required a death, and I suspect that in fact Shadowthrone and Cotillion never actually died when they passed through the doors of the Azath. Instead they were at the traditional magical requirement of a crossroads, on the brink of life and death and between night and dawn. They managed to live, and the result was ascension, and then they claimed the vacant throne of Shadow, and that tripped Kellanved over the edge into Godhood.

[sappers rule]

if they did become gods i hope they meet back up with truth