[Ceda Cicero]

Abyss, on 25 May 2011 - 06:06 PM, said:

My take on it...

WHAT HAPPENED TO FENER IN DG/MOI?

Fener was a (not 'the'... more on that in a minute) God of War generally recognized by the Malazans and other peoples as of the beginning of the series. In GotM we learn that he shares the Tennes warren with four other gods. There may be an element of GotMism to this, but in a nutshell, he's an ascended War Boar of War. As far as we know, he's an ascended animal and is not soletaken, nor ever human. I leave to your imagination the events that led to humans worshipping a large swine as the embodiment of all things war-related, but there may have been some mind-altering substances involved.

In DG, Heboric, a defroked High Priest still connected to Fener, is linked directly to Otataral and the Jade Chunks. The impact of this throws Fener right out of his warren. Whether his warren was Tennes or his own separate space, the point is that the Swine-of-Slaughter was tossed out of his happy god space and made into a more vulnerable form stuck on the Malazan World and severely weakened. The mechanics of it are such that he couldn't 'just go back there'.

At more or less the same time, in MoI, Fener's Mortal Sword and Destriant die, his Shield Anvil is displaced, and the Grey Swords, some of his most dedicated worshippers, are wiped out. Keep in mind that a god binds a lot of their power into their MS/D/SAs, so the loss is severe, contributing to why Battle-Pig couldn't just return to his Sty of Power.

Then on top of everything else, Trake, Togg and Fanderay all move into active 'God of War' roles and most of War Pig's worshippers switch teams. And really can you blame them, i mean... Tiger.... big frikkin Wolves.... Bacon-Beast, however agressive, just doesn't compete.


WAIT... WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE ARE MULTIPLE GODS OF WAR?

Hinted at in MoI and confirmed in TtH, 'war' as a concept is too broad and complex to be aspected to just one god, so there are lots, in different places. The War Bear that protects Samar Dev in TtH was one such.

Fener was the God of War worshipped in the Empire and elsewhere, but Togg and Fanderay had worshippers and so did Trake even before MoI. Those four are just the Gods of War we've seen active.


WHAT WAS HE DOING IN THE ERRANT'S BASEMENT IN RG?

Hiding. But the important thing to note there was Pig-Dude's prediction that he had one big battle left in him. We've seen that anscendents and gods often have some amount of precognition and Battle-Bacon knew something big was coming.


SO TCG... WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT?

Back in MoI, Fener is identified as one of the allies to ST and company in their running plan to deal with the CG. Their plan took a hit when Pork-Chop was pigged out, but it kept going, largely by Tavore propelling the Bonehunters and allies all the way to Kolanse.

Fastforward to the battle at the Spire... thousands and thousands of humans, K'chain Che'malle, Barghast, Imass, Jaghut and Forkrul Assail, all fighting for nothing less than the world. Quite the War, no?

Add to that Trake has retreated and lost his Mortal Sword, and one of the Wolves is dead. Add to THAT that Gesler, a former Mortal Sword of Fener, and Stormy, one of the Sausage King's few remaining worshippers, have both had major power-ups and are in the thick of the battle... so... war.... worshippers... a vacancy in the pantheon.... cue 'Summon Warthog of War'.... so Fener manifests above the battle.

And right on cue, Karsa smashes his altar.

With no warren and few worshippers elsewhere, the altar was perhaps Fener's last remaining link to power and the focus of his last shreds of worship. Having an ascendent smash it is a major hit.

Add to that the 'Gods of War' had sent Picker, to send Karsa, to do exactly that. One way or another, someone on the side of the good guys knew that a sacrifice would be necessary and Fener was it.


UMMM.... BUT DIDN'T THAT GO HORRIBLY WRONG AND GET A BUNCH OF THE GOOD GUYS KILLED?

No one said Gods of War were smart.

But actually, it's a well established point in the series that victory, or change, or power, requires sacrifice. Killing thousands in battle is sacrifice. Killing a god of war is more sacrifice. Bringing a whole batch of angst ridden undead back to life in the middle of that battle via the blood of the dead war god and then having them die fighting.... BIG sacrifice.


BUT... BUT... BUT HOOD KILLED REVERANCE

Who was delayed from finishing the ritual on the Heart via Gesler, and Fener's, sacrifices.


SO KARSA CAN BEAT DASSEM IN A FIGHT?

Die. Just die.

Repped for an awesome, series-spanning overview of a god. Just good shit. Whatever the process for Hall of Fall nomination includes, I'll ramp it up for the post.

The only thing I would add is my contention that the primary purpose of the Fener sacrifice was for the god's blood to rejuvenate Kaminsod's heart in preparation for resurrection.

[Use Of Weapons]

I would point out that the best-known pantheon of myth also had multiple gods of war (Ares and Athena, and to a small extent Artemis), so there is precedent in actual human culture for what SE did with Fener and the other gods of war.

[Kanese S's]

Indeed, several historical pantheons have had multiple gods of war. For example, the Aesir (the Norse pantheon, probably most well known behind the Greek/Roman deities) had at least half a dozen, probably more.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Something I just picked up on my DG re-read, regarding Heboric, which suggests to me that Fener and the other "good guys" had been planning this out for a long time:

You were never forsaken, Heboric, no matter what the priests may have believed when they did what they did. You were simply being prepared.

I'm trying to puzzle out the implications of this. Did Fener know he would be pulled to earth? Did he willingly sacrifice himself, even before he was stripped of his power? As a waning god, perhaps he saw this last opportunity to do an act of ultimate good, ultimate selflessness rather than fade away into wherever gods go when they become forgotten.

[Shansteeth]

POOPOO MCBUMFACE, on 03 June 2011 - 10:40 PM, said:

Something I just picked up on my DG re-read, regarding Heboric, which suggests to me that Fener and the other "good guys" had been planning this out for a long time:

You were never forsaken, Heboric, no matter what the priests may have believed when they did what they did. You were simply being prepared.

I'm trying to puzzle out the implications of this. Did Fener know he would be pulled to earth? Did he willingly sacrifice himself, even before he was stripped of his power? As a waning god, perhaps he saw this last opportunity to do an act of ultimate good, ultimate selflessness rather than fade away into wherever gods go when they become forgotten.

Perhaps it was like a D'rek type thing. Fener never appears to be a very active God of War. He seems to me to be one of those Gods who is being dragged around by his worshipers doing things in his name he does not really wish for them to do. Perhaps as mentioned above about a God of War who actually wants to Create Life - that change happened pre-falling from the sky. So he and his conspirators engineered his fall from grace - considering the apparent corruption in his priesthood anyway it seems like this was Feners way out while doing something righteous.


Maybe Fener, unlike many other gods, was just ready to die.

[Sudden Benjamin]

I still think taking up the entire sky just for the sake of killing yourself is a little..... ham handed

[Azathmaster]

I dont remember who said it but Fener sacrificed himselp partially because "Even gods of war tire of war. It seems only humans do not." A philosophical discussion follows, as is necessary

[jasec]

Doing my re read of DG now.

I just passed the part where Heboric with Baudin's help summons Fener. I thought that hand to heart salute was to summon his God, but not pull him out of his warren to the malazan world. What / and how did that happen? WAs it somehow linked to otataral?

[worry]

Didn't Heboric's missing hands -- influenced by both the otataral AND the jade -- push him out? Nobody pulled him out.

[jasec]

worrywort, on 21 May 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Didn't Heboric's missing hands -- influenced by both the otataral AND the jade -- push him out? Nobody pulled him out.

Just wording but yes, that's what I meant. But why and how would the jade giants and otataral push/pull a God from his own realm out? I know otataral is magic deadening, so did it weaken Fener somehow? And in conjuction with the jade giants, which were magically powerful it seems since they could still be magical despite the Otataral. But why would it even push/pull him out?

[Jorram]

While Abyss' long post and subsequent interpretations pretty much helped me understand this largely WTF moment of the book, two things still bug me:

(1) Both Kaminsod and Fener seem to be a really huge deal - it is spoken out as though a real! god! in! the! sky! is like WOW and its blood is like WOW squared. And Kaminsod - also simply a god is such a powerhouse that generations of gods and ascendants leech off his power. And the Glass Desert - it is this COMPLETELY nightmarish place just because "a god has died here". Meanwhile, we have the Elder God pantheon, supposedly elemental and totally OMG, given that one of them went and made magic accessible to the world, whatever this means, and they can take whatever forms they want and just pop up everywhere - and they are always just... humanish. And the Axis of Evil among them for some inexplicable reason find it necessary to actually WALK, and then three of them just die and in the case of Olar Ethil - i get it, magic arrows and all, but still... she just DIED out of a fucking stone arrow and nothing happened. No concussions, storms in the sky, no effect whatsoever... nothing. It took an AZATH to keep a mere Tiste ascendant because he can't just die stabbed in the back by a Shadow-enhanced uber-magic dagger wielded by another Tiste ascendant and demi-god? Yet a dying human kills an ELDER GOD ELEMENTAL with a stone arrow. Seriously... Was I the only one feeling that the Elder Gods seemed hugely irrelevant compared to the new gods? With the exception of Draconus, of course.


(2) Karsa thought he "took a vow in his youth" that apparently led him to think it necessary to kill Fener. Yet the whole convo "you are needed to kill a god" with Picker or Blend or whoever it was happened right at the end of TtH, hardly a year before the events of TCG. Am I misreading? Is there another vow Karsa took that I've forgotten?

[worry]

The jades certainly have a pretty decent grudge against anyone and everyone from this world, especially as it comes to gods. A little bit of tit for tat maybe? And anyway, that's what hands do, don't they? I mean, I've never seen an opportunity to push somebody and not taken it, that would be madness and squandery.

[jasec]

worrywort, on 21 May 2012 - 08:48 PM, said:

The jades certainly have a pretty decent grudge against anyone and everyone from this world, especially as it comes to gods. A little bit of tit for tat maybe? And anyway, that's what hands do, don't they? I mean, I've never seen an opportunity to push somebody and not taken it, that would be madness and squandery.

Ah that's right. Little things like this kill me. when Heboric's hand or where his hand should be does the salute on his chest, I guess it's the jade giant's hands that pull Fener?


I have a hard time discerning everything in SE's books. So I guess the Jade giants due to their relation to the CG (I think?) is why you said they would have a grudge with the gods of this world?

[worry]

My memory of the scene certainly isn't perfect, but I think that's a plausible explanation. It comes at a moment when human beings (the CG's "enemy" or whatever you want to call it) are attempting communion with their god, and the push seemed a spiteful thing.

[Sinisdar Toste]

i believe anomander rake explains this to some extent in MoI, does he not? because heborics hands were taken unjustly they were anathema to fener, and then, when they were claimed by the jade and otataral, they become actively antagonistic and push him into the mortal realm, once a link is formed through baudin putting the stump on heborics chest.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 22 May 2012 - 03:45 AM

[worry]

Yah, that's the other half that I was totally forgetting.

[D'rek]

Jorram, on 21 May 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

While Abyss' long post and subsequent interpretations pretty much helped me understand this largely WTF moment of the book, two things still bug me:

(1) Both Kaminsod and Fener seem to be a really huge deal - it is spoken out as though a real! god! in! the! sky! is like WOW and its blood is like WOW squared. And Kaminsod - also simply a god is such a powerhouse that generations of gods and ascendants leech off his power. And the Glass Desert - it is this COMPLETELY nightmarish place just because "a god has died here". Meanwhile, we have the Elder God pantheon, supposedly elemental and totally OMG, given that one of them went and made magic accessible to the world, whatever this means, and they can take whatever forms they want and just pop up everywhere - and they are always just... humanish. And the Axis of Evil among them for some inexplicable reason find it necessary to actually WALK, and then three of them just die and in the case of Olar Ethil - i get it, magic arrows and all, but still... she just DIED out of a fucking stone arrow and nothing happened. No concussions, storms in the sky, no effect whatsoever... nothing. It took an AZATH to keep a mere Tiste ascendant because he can't just die stabbed in the back by a Shadow-enhanced uber-magic dagger wielded by another Tiste ascendant and demi-god? Yet a dying human kills an ELDER GOD ELEMENTAL with a stone arrow. Seriously... Was I the only one feeling that the Elder Gods seemed hugely irrelevant compared to the new gods? With the exception of Draconus, of course.

Not necessarily *THE* answer, but a possible answer...

There is power in sacrifice. Fener, God of War, sacrifices himself willingly and gets a life-restoring blood-rain. Perhaps if Olar Ethil had sacrificed herself there would be some great effect, as well.

On the other hand, what power does Olar Ethil still have? No one worships her, the T'lan Imass pretty much only acknowledge her as another Bonecaster rather than some sort of goddess, and if her drivel is to be believed she gave up more of her power to make Burn. On the other hand, Fener had a religion spanning half the world and entire mercenary companies, maybe even entire cultures, feeding him the power of worship before he descended. That religion may have waned since his descent, but it is not gone entirely, else there would have been no temple and altar for Karsa to smash. Maybe if Fener continued hiding like we saw in RG for millenia the collected power of his worship and his realm would dissipate like Olar Ethil's did, but since it has been such a short time since his descent that power is still there. He can't use it the way he used to, but he could still use it for one great, powerful gesture of self-sacrifice.

Jorram, on 21 May 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

(2) Karsa thought he "took a vow in his youth" that apparently led him to think it necessary to kill Fener. Yet the whole convo "you are needed to kill a god" with Picker or Blend or whoever it was happened right at the end of TtH, hardly a year before the events of TCG. Am I misreading? Is there another vow Karsa took that I've forgotten?

It is both. He made the vow in his youth, and then Picker got him to stay in Darujhistan so he could fulfill it. So because of Picker he stayed in Darujhistan (well, in the town just outside Darujhistan) for many months until it was time to fulfill that vow.

[worry]

Also, Olar Ethil doesn't have any blood. It dried up long ago, I'd wager.

[worry]

Also, the notion that she made Burn (in the way Killy made Sechul, or Sechul made Oponn) is a good one, and makes a lot more sense than OE just being all the entities she named. She's an EG obsessed with motherhood, and certainly jealous of anybody else with that ability (Kilava, Tiam, even Hetan all come to mind). She was probably a mother figure before the Tellann ritual, and in her insanity believes herself to own her creations in an unhealthy, possessive way. SE has created a whole spectrum of complicated mothers.

[Jorram]

That all makes sense, thanks.

Can you refresh me on what vow did Karsa take in his youth?