[Hoods Breath]

I'm nearing the end of TCG... what the heck was Fener thinking? Last we read about him, he was brought to the mortal realm by Heboric and hiding out in the bowels of Letheras.
How does he all of a sudden become a giant sky-filling supergod with a magic horn of weakness in Darujistan?
I presume he was after the heart but if he was in the mortal realm and his head was in D-stan, how does he expect to grab the heart from the spire and/or how does Karsa chop him up if he's really in the Letheras sewers or blotting out the sun?

And then why does he have magic life-giving blood rain that only affects certain dead/undead persons. Weren't thousands killed in the battles there who should suddenly spring to life and ask where their toes are?

This whole sequence, including Tools happy reunion seemed more illogical than normal.

[worry]

Fener was not after the heart, he was deliberately sacrificing himself in order to help the CG's heart (and the blood reviving everyone else may have been deliberate or may just be a byproduct). Karsa was part of the plan. The blood revived everything that hadn't passed through Hood's Gate (or BB's Gate now I guess), hence the 14 Jaghut, the T'lan Imass, Olar Ethil, and Hetan's body being affected while the war dead were not.

This post has been edited by worrywort: 19 May 2011 - 10:29 PM

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

I was bloody confused by this segment, no pun intended. It made more sense when I thought about it, but... just why did shattering the altar kill Fener? Hurt him, I can accept - seems like a standard pseudo-sensible extension of the tying gods to their believers thing - but kill him? Why did that happen? And why did it specifically happen over that battlefield? If I'd wandered into a disused temple of Fener on Itko Kan a week earlier and hit the altar with a pickaxe for a few days, would he have suddenly materalised somewhere in Jacururaku and exploded? Imagine being a farmer in the Malazan world.

"Well, Mabel, my turnips were coming along alright, then a giant pig appeared in the sky and exploded over them."
"That damn Conan expy must have gotten his timing wrong again."
"Hazard of the profession, I guess."

[Binder of Demons]

Don't forget you have STORMY and GESLER there at the altar with the heart, and as former worshipers of FENER that may help to explain his appearance over the battlefield.

not sure why breaking the altar in Darujistan would kill Fener rather than injure him, bu I'm willing to go with it.

[worry]

Breaking the alter didn't kill Fener, nor did breaking the tusk or horn or whatever it was. That was just used as a sorcerous portal -- one Fener himself was deliberately and purposefully opening to himself. It was Karsa's gigantic sword stabbing gigantic Fener that killed him. The gigantic Fener was actually there over the battlefield because he a) wanted to be and Stormy and Gesler were there to call him into being.

[Ulrik]

Binder of Demons, on 20 May 2011 - 12:48 AM, said:

Don't forget you have STORMY and GESLER there at the altar with the heart, and as former worshipers of FENER that may help to explain his appearance over the battlefield.

not sure why breaking the altar in Darujistan would kill Fener rather than injure him, bu I'm willing to go with it.

IIRC Stormy and/ or Gesler were Shield Anvil/ Mortal Sword/ Destriant of Fener. Cant remember the title now, that scene was too intense

[Hoods Breath]

worrywort, on 19 May 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

Fener was not after the heart, he was deliberately sacrificing himself in order to help the CG's heart (and the blood reviving everyone else may have been deliberate or may just be a byproduct). Karsa was part of the plan.

Why would Fener sacrifice himself to help the CG? boredom? guilt over chaining him? Maybe he's a die hard romantic who couldn't resist healing a broken heart.

I thought perhaps he was going after the heart in order to power himself up and take back the top God of War spot from the remaining wolf. For a character that had such a prominent impact at the end of the series, we know very little about him or his motivations.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Hoods Breath, on 20 May 2011 - 05:49 PM, said:

worrywort, on 19 May 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

Fener was not after the heart, he was deliberately sacrificing himself in order to help the CG's heart (and the blood reviving everyone else may have been deliberate or may just be a byproduct). Karsa was part of the plan.

Why would Fener sacrifice himself to help the CG? boredom? guilt over chaining him? Maybe he's a die hard romantic who couldn't resist healing a broken heart.

I thought perhaps he was going after the heart in order to power himself up and take back the top God of War spot from the remaining wolf. For a character that had such a prominent impact at the end of the series, we know very little about him or his motivations.

He tells the Errant in RG that he has one last battle and that he'll go down blazing.

Fener knew he was finished, he was trapped in the mortal world and his worshippers switched to other gods. He deemed it a worthy sacrifice, as K'rul tells the CG.

[Kanese S's]

Something worth fighting for, one might say.

[blackzoid]

Fener was the opposite of Trake and the wolves in the end. A (former) God of war who actually wanted to create life rather than take it. Thats my take on the scene.
I like the idea that Fener learned to be a better God due to his expulsion and vulnerability after Deadhouse Gates. And that Trake and the Wolves lost this when they ascended/took the Beast thrones. Its ironic that we took Trake and the Wolves to be good guys in Memories of Ice whereas they turned out to be pricks in the end.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

worrywort, on 19 May 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

The blood revived everything that hadn't passed through Hood's Gate (or BB's Gate now I guess), hence the 14 Jaghut, the T'lan Imass, Olar Ethil, and Hetan's body being affected while the war dead were not.

As far as I recall, the entire continent on which Letheras is situated was closed off to Hood, no? So... the entire Kolansii and Letheri forces should have been resurrected as well, and perhaps even the Malazans (although we might be able to make an exception for them, since they still know/fear/worship Hood), along with everything that ever died in the vicinity (probably including Krughava, the wolf god and the wolf spirits, etc.).


Hetan's resurrection is just weird:

1.) Did she wander about as a ghost? I thought she just plain died.
2.) How did her shade/new self wind up on the Spire anyway? She should have been most of a continent away.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Goaswerfraiejen, on 24 May 2011 - 06:38 PM, said:

worrywort, on 19 May 2011 - 10:29 PM, said:

The blood revived everything that hadn't passed through Hood's Gate (or BB's Gate now I guess), hence the 14 Jaghut, the T'lan Imass, Olar Ethil, and Hetan's body being affected while the war dead were not.

As far as I recall, the entire continent on which Letheras is situated was closed off to Hood, no? So... the entire Kolansii and Letheri forces should have been resurrected as well, and perhaps even the Malazans (although we might be able to make an exception for them, since they still know/fear/worship Hood), along with everything that ever died in the vicinity (probably including Krughava, the wolf god and the wolf spirits, etc.).


Hetan's resurrection is just weird:

1.) Did she wander about as a ghost? I thought she just plain died.
2.) How did her shade/new self wind up on the Spire anyway? She should have been most of a continent away.

the entire continent wasn't affected by gothos ritual. both kuru qan and kalyth mention a god of death. kuru qan when he's telling brys how odd it was that they didn't have one. so, no, only people who didn't go through hood's gates were ressurected. hetan's spirit is held by badalle. she speaks of it in DoD in one of her monologues to saddic. toc's story in tCG was about him hanging on to his humanity long enough to deliver hetans body to the spire, so he could redeem himself to tool. i'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that SE decided that badalle was close enough for the spirit to find it's body, once it was soaked in god's blood.

[worry]

blackzoid, on 24 May 2011 - 11:39 AM, said:

Fener was the opposite of Trake and the wolves in the end. A (former) God of war who actually wanted to create life rather than take it. Thats my take on the scene.
I like the idea that Fener learned to be a better God due to his expulsion and vulnerability after Deadhouse Gates. And that Trake and the Wolves lost this when they ascended/took the Beast thrones. Its ironic that we took Trake and the Wolves to be good guys in Memories of Ice whereas they turned out to be pricks in the end.

Yah, this is pretty neat. I suppose the Wolves had a reason though. Humans certainly seemed to romanticize the notion of the two being split apart at the fall of the CG and trying to find each other forever, but from their point of view it must have just been eternal agony. The one is stuck in Chaos while the other is a soul hitchhiking in an Ay, right? And it was human mages calling down the CG that caused the whole thing. So besides their abhorrence for the unnatural methods of human war, they also had a much more personal grudge. And with Trake, it kinda seemed like he was returning to sanity after millennia stuck in his bestial form...he seems on the cusp of redemption even, but then becomes another god of war. And to be honest, I'm still not fully grasping his role in the finale, what his goals are, etc.

But Fener, yah, I get. Really well played out, interesting change of heart he has. I really wonder about his origins, if he's another First Hero, or something from before like that bear god.

[Sanctume]

From what I took from Trake is that he was human to begin with being First Hero of the Empire.
I think he ascended because of the Soletaken / Diver experiement.
And based on Trake's struggle between Beast and Human thought, for me, it tied to the idea of other example such as the Soletaken / Eleint.
I wondered why Rake preferred Human form, and this last book explained that insanity or fighting chaos in dragon form.

Getting back to Trake, being in his Tiger form versus his human form was easier to grasp the idea of struggling from losing humanity or one's own mind.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Sanctume, on 24 May 2011 - 11:24 PM, said:

From what I took from Trake is that he was human to begin with being First Hero of the Empire.
I think he ascended because of the Soletaken / Diver experiement.
And based on Trake's struggle between Beast and Human thought, for me, it tied to the idea of other example such as the Soletaken / Eleint.
I wondered why Rake preferred Human form, and this last book explained that insanity or fighting chaos in dragon form.

Getting back to Trake, being in his Tiger form versus his human form was easier to grasp the idea of struggling from losing humanity or one's own mind.

and let's not discount the fact that trake is apparently half imass. kilava is his mother, and such a powerful soletaken mother would certainly pass on a lot of power. i thought it was kind of out of left field when we discovered that in tCG, but it explains why she would be so johnny on the spot when trake is dying.

[prq]

This does leave quite a hole in the pantheon though... Fener dies, Trake dies... who'll be the new God of War? :-)

[blackzoid]

There is one Wolf god left. And its not a critical position to fill I think. As Samar/Karsa discussed, why is there no God of Peace?

[mayhem]

prq, on 25 May 2011 - 11:49 AM, said:

This does leave quite a hole in the pantheon though... Fener dies, Trake dies... who'll be the new God of War? :-)

That was kind of the point.
The end of TCG involved all the extant Gods of War being killed off or reduced in power, to try and change humanity for the better.
The same as Hood steps down from being God of Death in favour of the Guardians of the Gate, those who have been there, done that and have an infinitely more .. compassionate .. view of death without the romanticisation.

[Sanctume]

Taken from the Tor re-read. http://www.tor.com/b...-ice-chapter-18

Awesome world building relating to Fener, CG, Heboric, and Trake.

Quote

MOI Chapter 18, SCENE 10Rake asks Whiskeyjack to walk with him after the meeting. Rake asks about his leg and when Whiskeyjack admits it hurts, Rake says Brood would heal him, to which Whiskeyjack gives his usual response: “when there’s time.” Rake points out there has been plenty of time, but moves on. He’s happy to hear Whiskeyjack has heard from Quick Ben, and even happier to see Whiskeyjack’s effect on Korlat: “I had not expected to find in her such renewal. A heart I’d believed closed for ever. To see it flowering so . . . “ When Whiskeyjack worries out loud he may have wounded her with his deception, Rake says only momentarily. He says he defused the anger and Whiskeyjack eventually figures out Rake and the others still need the Malazans. Rake admits perhaps more than ever and says they need pretty much everybody, including Paran as Master of the Deck. Whiskeyjack asks what that role means and Rake explains “The Crippled God has fashioned a new House and now seeks to join it to the Deck of Dragons. A sanction is required. A blessing . . . or conversely a denial. Whiskeyjack wonders who blessed the House of Shadow then, but Rake says “there was no need. The House of Shadow has always existed, more or less. Shadowthrone and Cotillion merely reawakened it.” When Whiskeyjack asks if Rake means for Paran to deny sanction to the CG’s House, Rake says “I believe he must. To grant the Fallen One legitimacy is to grant him power. We see what he is capable of in his present weakened state. The House of Chains is the foundation he will use to rebuild himself.” Whiskeyjack points out that Rake and the gods “took him down” before via the Chaining, but Rake replies that it was “costly” and that Fener, who is now “lost to us” was vital in that Chaining. When Whiskeyjack asks how Fener was lost, how he was as Rake described “torn from his realm [into] the mortal earth,” Rake says “by a Malazan.” He goes on to explain in detail:

A once-priest of Fener . . . his hands were ritually severed. The power of the Reve then sends those hands to the hooves of Fener himself. The ritual must be the expression of purest justice, but this one wasn’t . . . there was a perceived need to reduce the influence of Fener, and in particular that High Priest, by agents of the Empire—likely the Claw . . . the High Priest’s penchant for historical analysis was another [factor]—he had completed an investigation that concluded that the Empress Laseen in fact failed in her assassination of the Emperor and Dancer . . . [who] ascended . . . in any case, those severed hands were as poison to Fener . . . He burned the tattoos announcing his denial upon the priest’s skin, and so sealed the virulent power of the hands . . . eventually the priest would die, and his spirit would come to Fener to retrieve [the hands]. That spirit would then become the weapon of Fener’s wrath, his vengeance upon the priests of the fouled temple, and indeed upon the Claw and the Empress herself . . . but . . . the High Priest has, by design or chance, come into contact with the Warren of Chaos—an object, perhaps forged within that warren. The protective seal around his severed hands was obliterated . . . and finding Fener, those hands, pushed. . . and now the Tiger of Summer ascends to take his place. But Treach is young, much weaker, his warren but a paltry thing, his followers far fewer in number.

When Whiskeyjack says Trake’s ascension is a heck of a coincidence, Rake says the Elder Gods foresaw at least some of this and were involved because “The Fall destroyed many of them, leaving but a few survivors. Whatever secrets surround the Fallen One—where he came from, the nature of his aspect . . . —K’rul and his kind possess them. That they have chosen to become directly involved . . . has dire implications as to the seriousness of the threat.” Whiskeyjack says he now understands Rake’s suggestion re Paran’s sanctioning (or not), but warns him Paran “doesn’t take orders well.” Rake asks Whiskeyjack to help convince him and Whiskeyjack says he’ll try. Rake asks then if Whiskeyjack ever finds the voice of river to be “unsettling” and when Whiskeyjack says he finds it calming instead, Rake says “this points to the essential difference between us,” which Whiskeyjack takes to mean between immortals and mortals. He suggests some drinking and Rake thinks it’s a good idea. Whiskeyjack hopes the ale will allow Rake to “find the voice grown calm” but as he looks at Rake, with Dragnipur on his back “like an elongated cross, surrounded in its own breath of preternatural darkness,” he doesn’t think the ale will work.

[Abyss]

My take on it...

WHAT HAPPENED TO FENER IN DG/MOI?

Fener was a (not 'the'... more on that in a minute) God of War generally recognized by the Malazans and other peoples as of the beginning of the series. In GotM we learn that he shares the Tennes warren with four other gods. There may be an element of GotMism to this, but in a nutshell, he's an ascended War Boar of War. As far as we know, he's an ascended animal and is not soletaken, nor ever human. I leave to your imagination the events that led to humans worshipping a large swine as the embodiment of all things war-related, but there may have been some mind-altering substances involved.

In DG, Heboric, a defroked High Priest still connected to Fener, is linked directly to Otataral and the Jade Chunks. The impact of this throws Fener right out of his warren. Whether his warren was Tennes or his own separate space, the point is that the Swine-of-Slaughter was tossed out of his happy god space and made into a more vulnerable form stuck on the Malazan World and severely weakened. The mechanics of it are such that he couldn't 'just go back there'.

At more or less the same time, in MoI, Fener's Mortal Sword and Destriant die, his Shield Anvil is displaced, and the Grey Swords, some of his most dedicated worshippers, are wiped out. Keep in mind that a god binds a lot of their power into their MS/D/SAs, so the loss is severe, contributing to why Battle-Pig couldn't just return to his Sty of Power.

Then on top of everything else, Trake, Togg and Fanderay all move into active 'God of War' roles and most of War Pig's worshippers switch teams. And really can you blame them, i mean... Tiger.... big frikkin Wolves.... Bacon-Beast, however agressive, just doesn't compete.


WAIT... WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE ARE MULTIPLE GODS OF WAR?

Hinted at in MoI and confirmed in TtH, 'war' as a concept is too broad and complex to be aspected to just one god, so there are lots, in different places. The War Bear that protects Samar Dev in TtH was one such.

Fener was the God of War worshipped in the Empire and elsewhere, but Togg and Fanderay had worshippers and so did Trake even before MoI. Those four are just the Gods of War we've seen active.


WHAT WAS HE DOING IN THE ERRANT'S BASEMENT IN RG?

Hiding. But the important thing to note there was Pig-Dude's prediction that he had one big battle left in him. We've seen that anscendents and gods often have some amount of precognition and Battle-Bacon knew something big was coming.


SO TCG... WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT?

Back in MoI, Fener is identified as one of the allies to ST and company in their running plan to deal with the CG. Their plan took a hit when Pork-Chop was pigged out, but it kept going, largely by Tavore propelling the Bonehunters and allies all the way to Kolanse.

Fastforward to the battle at the Spire... thousands and thousands of humans, K'chain Che'malle, Barghast, Imass, Jaghut and Forkrul Assail, all fighting for nothing less than the world. Quite the War, no?

Add to that Trake has retreated and lost his Mortal Sword, and one of the Wolves is dead. Add to THAT that Gesler, a former Mortal Sword of Fener, and Stormy, one of the Sausage King's few remaining worshippers, have both had major power-ups and are in the thick of the battle... so... war.... worshippers... a vacancy in the pantheon.... cue 'Summon Warthog of War'.... so Fener manifests above the battle.

And right on cue, Karsa smashes his altar.

With no warren and few worshippers elsewhere, the altar was perhaps Fener's last remaining link to power and the focus of his last shreds of worship. Having an ascendent smash it is a major hit.

Add to that the 'Gods of War' had sent Picker, to send Karsa, to do exactly that. One way or another, someone on the side of the good guys knew that a sacrifice would be necessary and Fener was it.


UMMM.... BUT DIDN'T THAT GO HORRIBLY WRONG AND GET A BUNCH OF THE GOOD GUYS KILLED?

No one said Gods of War were smart.

But actually, it's a well established point in the series that victory, or change, or power, requires sacrifice. Killing thousands in battle is sacrifice. Killing a god of war is more sacrifice. Bringing a whole batch of angst ridden undead back to life in the middle of that battle via the blood of the dead war god and then having them die fighting.... BIG sacrifice.


BUT... BUT... BUT HOOD KILLED REVERANCE

Who was delayed from finishing the ritual on the Heart via Gesler, and Fener's, sacrifices.


SO KARSA CAN BEAT DASSEM IN A FIGHT?

Die. Just die.