[Puck]

birthSqueeze may have put it a bit crassly, but I agree to certain points. I liked the story but the writing style was what kept me from jumping straight into the next book. It did not manage to make the plot believable to me, and I don't mean the fact that outrageos things happened and more the fact that the writing seemed disconnected from the events, like it was not yet on par in its quality with the ideas that it tried to bring to the page. There was this strange rift I felt throughout the first book.

I realise I'm in the minority with my opinion, but hey, it is my opinion. Also, I did buy the next book, because I give the first one the benefit of being a first novel for Lawrence (as far as I am aware, in any case) and the actualy events happening were kind of fun.

[Morgoth]

Puck, on 23 August 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

birthSqueeze may have put it a bit crassly, but I agree to certain points. I liked the story but the writing style was what kept me from jumping straight into the next book. It did not manage to make the plot believable to me, and I don't mean the fact that outrageos things happened and more the fact that the writing seemed disconnected from the events, like it was not yet on par in its quality with the ideas that it tried to bring to the page. There was this strange rift I felt throughout the first book.

I realise I'm in the minority with my opinion, but hey, it is my opinion. Also, I did buy the next book, because I give the first one the benefit of being a first novel for Lawrence (as far as I am aware, in any case) and the actualy events happening were kind of fun.

I'm surprised at the criticism of the writing to be honest. Lawrence is certainly no Wolfe or Kay, but compared to the typical fantasy / sci fi fare I find his prose to be some steps above the genre average. Much better than Sanderson for instance, or Abraham or a number of other bestselling writers.

I especially enjoy his ability to present tension in conversations. In Emperor there's a scene taking place inside a carriage that I found to be pretty fantastic in that regard.

[Mikkelinski]

I wouldn't say better or worse than the authors you mention Morgoth, but certainly different (partially of course due to his use first person). I for one delighted in the departure of what I'd call the more typical fantasy novel (third person often with much emphasis on the environment / clothes etc to deliver worldbuilding). It reads like his (Jorg's) narrative, and he doesn't care what people are wearing or how the scenery looks, and he puts a lot of his own thoughts into every observation / detail - and he has a flair for the dramatic I guess, like the quote with the quotes on thirsty dying and ravens (first chapter first book).

I'm happy there are many kinds of prose / writing style; I read and enjoy Kay, Abraham, Sanderson and many others and I don't accept that all they write would read "better" if in another type of prose. I guess I don't really care for prose in and of itself, and it takes a special kind of bad to make me put a book down if I find the story compelling (which of course I guess is influenced by the prose but bah). Form follows function, with prose being form and story being the function.

[Puck]

Mikkelinski, on 23 August 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

I'm happy there are many kinds of prose / writing style; I read and enjoy Kay, Abraham, Sanderson and many others and I don't accept that all they write would read "better" if in another type of prose. I guess I don't really care for prose in and of itself, and it takes a special kind of bad to make me put a book down if I find the story compelling (which of course I guess is influenced by the prose but bah). Form follows function, with prose being form and story being the function.

See, and here I differ. Bad writing is bad writing and something being a fantasy novel should not be a valid excuse for that. This is as much a staple of the fantasy gerne as the farmboy-adventurer and yet the latter is dying out while the former seems to get the pass and I don't understand why.

That said, I never said Prince was badly written, only that it seemed to not have yet found its own voice. Last time I checked these kinds of things tend to happen in first novels. Although for some reason people seem to be touchy about someone saying not all was peaches with this series. Yes, the first book was good, but it was no revelation for me personally, and I dare to say that Mark Lawrence is set enough in his self-esteem to accept that not everyone will shout praises at the book.

To me, prose is important. If it cannot tell the story in a, to me, believable way it does take away from my enjoyment. The same prose I dislike may be the prose someone else likes. Tastes are different. A book might not get better by being told in another author's prose but that does not mean it cannot get better in its own way.

[Salt-Man Z]

See, I have the exact opposite opinion (through the first two books): I didn't so much like the structure Lawrence devised, and the plot itself was just okay, but the prose and voice kept me gripped from the first page to the last.

[polishgenius]

See, I think the prose is fantastic. He's no Wolfe, but there are definitely passages where it's comparable to Kay, though it's not going for that all the time.

More of those moments do happen in book 2, though. It is more polished than the first.

[Puck]

I alluded to this twice already, but I can state it plainly: opinions differ. No need to jump me just because they do.

This post has been edited by Puck: 23 August 2013 - 03:50 PM

[Morgoth]

And comparing Lawrence's prose to that of Sanderson is downright cruel. Sanderson's prose is as flat as beer left over from last night's party.

[Traveller]

I just finished Emperor, and although I really enjoyed all three, I preferred Prince overall.

Mainly, I think, because Jorg was far more impulsive, and also because although there were hints about the age and history of the world, generally it was mostly a new dark age. Plus, in the first book, seeing Jorg develop was like reading the backstory of the sort of person who ends up as the big bad in other fantasy. (I kind of thought that was where the series was going from the start, to be honest - which is what got me hooked. This is the kind of beginning Darth Vader should have had.)

I would maybe have preferred a less 'save the world' theme to the 3rd book, and happily read more of the road brothers, but I thought it was all wrapped up really well, and the time jumps kept it interesting.

I know Mark reads this occasionally, so I'll just say, if you're reading this.. thank you. Absorbing story, great style, new perspective. Great read from beginning to end. (Favorite part? Has to be in Prince, where Jorg walks unarmed right into his enemies, climbs up on the horse, and.. you know the rest.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 23 August 2013 - 08:07 PM

[Mikkelinski]

Undoubtedly, bad writing is bad writing and genre has nothing to do with it, I don't think anyone disagrees with that notion. And yes, most likely any book can retain it's style but be improved (though of course, my enjoyment of this particular series lead me to think that doing so would be too much work for little benefit since it was already so good).

What I was trying to convey was that styles (or voice) goes hand in hand with content, and in my case I found Prince (and sequels) to have a distinct style (or voice) that it kept throughout and it felt natural and well-suited for the story the book was telling. I do have some qualms about the book itself, sometimes I felt the distinct impression that some element was being hand-waved if I am to mention one thing in particular, but not enough to detract significantly from my experience.

I hope you don't feel that I'm zealous in arguing, if anything it's always interesting to read / hear what people didn't like when I personally liked it so much. Often (rather too often) I feel I'm on the other side, and always feel that I have to be careful not draw the ire of avid supporters (in particular, Wheel of time).

Edit: Active forum is active, I was replying to you Puck, in post 248 =)

This post has been edited by Mikkelinski: 23 August 2013 - 04:07 PM

[polishgenius]

Puck, on 23 August 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

I alluded to this twice already, but I can state it plainly: opinions differ. No need to jump me just because they do.

Who's jumping you? You state an opinion, people counter it- this is how discussion topics work.

[Mark Lawrence]

This might be of interest since prose is under discussion (a quote poster contest):

http://mark---lawren...er-contest.html

in my experience the best indicator that writing has a voice is that
i) people actually have the discussion
ii) people have radically different views on the quality of prose - distinctive prose will polarize readers


& this since people are saying which book they liked best this might be of interest (a poll on which was the best book - still open for votes):

http://mark---lawren...of-trilogy.html

This post has been edited by Mark Lawrence: 23 August 2013 - 05:40 PM

[Baco Xtath]

Finished this tonight, fucking loved it - not unexpected (the loving it, not the content). I think the prose is fantastic, so appropriate; quick, sharp, aggressive. I found it poetic at times and am dumbfounded that anyone would compare it to Sanderson (whom I thoroughly enjoy, by the way, but is hardly one known for waxing poetic). Loved the books and am looking forward to future books by Mark. Thank you sincerely for one hell of a ride.

[Salt-Man Z]

I'm mad 'cause I didn't get to the library until 5 minutes after it closed, and my copy of EMPEROR is waiting for me. Oh well, I'll have to get it tomorrow.

[Tapper]

That was one of the best books, perhaps the very best, I have read all year. It also "forces" me to do a back-to-back full read of the series, and a HC pre order of the next Mark Lawrence book, regardless of genre.

[birthSqueeze]

Morgoth, on 23 August 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

And comparing Lawrence's prose to that of Sanderson is downright cruel. Sanderson's prose is as flat as beer left over from last night's party.

Yes, I agree it's cruel because Brandon Sanderson is a much better writer. His flat prose tell the story very effectively. I'm not saying that prose aren't important because they are very important. For example If you're writing lets say a horror novel then the prose need to create atmosphere and excitement. If you're writing a plot focused book like Brandon Sanderson always does then flat and straight forward prose works very well. Of course, anything can work provided it is well written. Bad writing is bad writing is becoming a cliche here.

[Malaclypse]

birthSqueeze, on 27 August 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 23 August 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

And comparing Lawrence's prose to that of Sanderson is downright cruel. Sanderson's prose is as flat as beer left over from last night's party.

Yes, I agree it's cruel because Brandon Sanderson is a much better writer. His flat prose tell the story very effectively. I'm not saying that prose aren't important because they are very important. For example If you're writing lets say a horror novel then the prose need to create atmosphere and excitement. If you're writing a plot focused book like Brandon Sanderson always does then flat and straight forward prose works very well. Of course, anything can work provided it is well written. Bad writing is bad writing is becoming a cliche here.

Obvious fool here. BAN

[birthSqueeze]

Malaclypse, on 27 August 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

birthSqueeze, on 27 August 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 23 August 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

And comparing Lawrence's prose to that of Sanderson is downright cruel. Sanderson's prose is as flat as beer left over from last night's party.

Yes, I agree it's cruel because Brandon Sanderson is a much better writer. His flat prose tell the story very effectively. I'm not saying that prose aren't important because they are very important. For example If you're writing lets say a horror novel then the prose need to create atmosphere and excitement. If you're writing a plot focused book like Brandon Sanderson always does then flat and straight forward prose works very well. Of course, anything can work provided it is well written. Bad writing is bad writing is becoming a cliche here.

Obvious fool here. BAN

Brandon Sanderson is having a huge impact on the fantasy genre; Mistborn will be one of the most influential fantasy novels of all time. He's also one of the most prolific contemporary writers. I'm amazed at the pace he produces books. By comparison there really isn't much going on in the Broken Empires books, the plot is weak, and it's not that innovative. The Broken Empires is just a little puddle compared to Mistborn. In fifty years Broken Empires will most likely have been forgotten, but people will still be going back and finding great enjoyment in Mistborn.

[champ]

birthSqueeze, on 28 August 2013 - 06:33 AM, said:

Malaclypse, on 27 August 2013 - 07:00 AM, said:

birthSqueeze, on 27 August 2013 - 03:39 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 23 August 2013 - 03:50 PM, said:

And comparing Lawrence's prose to that of Sanderson is downright cruel. Sanderson's prose is as flat as beer left over from last night's party.

Yes, I agree it's cruel because Brandon Sanderson is a much better writer. His flat prose tell the story very effectively. I'm not saying that prose aren't important because they are very important. For example If you're writing lets say a horror novel then the prose need to create atmosphere and excitement. If you're writing a plot focused book like Brandon Sanderson always does then flat and straight forward prose works very well. Of course, anything can work provided it is well written. Bad writing is bad writing is becoming a cliche here.

Obvious fool here. BAN

Brandon Sanderson is having a huge impact on the fantasy genre; Mistborn will be one of the most influential fantasy novels of all time. He's also one of the most prolific contemporary writers. I'm amazed at the pace he produces books. By comparison there really isn't much going on in the Broken Empires books, the plot is weak, and it's not that innovative. The Broken Empires is just a little puddle compared to Mistborn. In fifty years Broken Empires will most likely have been forgotten, but people will still be going back and finding great enjoyment in Mistborn.

Are you actually been serious?

[Morgoth]

I honestly struggle to understand Your point of view here, bS. Can you elaborate as to why you think Mistborn is, or will become, one of the most influential works of the genre?