[Voodoo]

Anyone else feel, and I don't know if this has come up recently, that by the end the TcG, still more attached to the bridgeburners than the bonehunters/others.

I don't know if it's because MoI was such an outstanding peice of work, or because it was the first I read out of all of them (the third book given as a gift before I knew what the MBotF was), but by the end of the series I still cared more about the bridgeburners, both living and dead, then about anyone in the rest of the series (excluding Crokus/Gruntle/Toc). As I put the TcG down (and having reread all of the other books between each new book release) that in the end I still cared more for characters you only get to know in one novel (Antsy, Bluepearls, Spindle, Detoran, etc) than about characters who were around for the majority of the series (Corrabb, Tavore, Mappo, just to name a few obvious ones).

I find it odd that this series breaks the mold for me in terms of empathy awarded to characters. Generally when reading a series I latch on to one or two characters, usually because they are involved in everything (lets take Fiddler as an example) and care more for them, because I spend more time with them. But in the MBotF, that small group of folks, the bridgeburners group (I say group as a preliminary for seperating fiddler/kalam, etc who left the core on their own adventures), did more for my empathy levels in 1 novel than fiddler did for the whole ride.

Now, this group wasn't my favorite out of the series by far. Some of the one-off standout characters as mentioned above had me rooting for them through and through, but when it comes down to my empathy for the demolishment of the Bridgeburners VS Bonehunters, bridgeburners win without breaking a sweat.

I had originally chalked it up to just the heroic-feel of each of the Bridgeburners. Each character (with few exceptions) had an epic final stand and a distinct personalization. But upon thought, a lot of the Bonehunters did too, so I have no idea where my mind has wrapped me up in all of this.

Now, am I insane, or does anyone else feel like this?

[Ilona]

Probably not insane at all. The Bridgeburners (I totally did not just typo that as -burgers) are kind of glorified all the way through, only at the very end do we get some Hedge/Fiddler POVs that indicate that not all Bridgeburners were that great and that there were some downright assholes among them. Take their motto, First in, last out, it screams of heroism and well, getting the job done no matter the cost. It screams fucking badass. Whereas for long the Bonehunters just go... last in, looking around, as someone states their unofficial motto in whichever book was it, Bonehunters?

I don't know the part about caring more about long-dead minor Bridgeburner characters than fairly major Bonehunter ones as individuals, but to me it sounds like the Bridgeburners just mean that much to you, and although I don't feel the same way myself I can understand this. I do notice that I pay more attention to a new character from the start if it's implied that they were a Bridgeburner or had ties to the Emperor/Old Guard. Or if they're Tiste Andii or Jaghut. And I suppose that's a same kind of phenomenon.

[Tatterdemalion]

I think we're never supposed to stop caring about the principal ones - the legends. Quick Ben, Kalam, Whiskeyjack and Fiddler are the four eminent Bridgeburners (and Paran, but his mystique is gone because we rise with him) and I think they stay as critical and awesome badasses the whole books. So when they are all together within the BB during books 1 it feels AMAZING and not much worse when its Kalam/Fid book 2 and QB/Whiskeyjack book 3.

As for the rest, I think it is directly a testament to Memories of Ice that they stand out. I'd say for me I like the Bonehunters as much as the BB regulars, except Picker who I always prefered, but MOI is so awesome and particular in their stories (remember Trotts fighting Humbar Taur's son or whatever?) that they find sharp characteristics. Bonehunters rarely do anything individually impressive, besides Bottle. Smiles, Koryk, Cuttle, Corabb, and the like all work well as a unit, represent common soldiers getting tougher and tough, but never have the heroic stands of Detoran, Trotts, Mallet or Hedge. They seem to have the wood whittled away around them instead.

So I'd say MOI is the principal reason to feel this way, the ringleaders still being there the second. Once the 4 awesomest BB's became their own characters it wasn't the same and BH only ever had 2 at the max (Fiddler again, Bottle). Maybe if Throatslitter and Tarr had been more like Kalam and Whiskeyjack they would have inspired similar feelings, but as it stands they are still on the ROAD to becoming that epic, not yet arrived.

Also: I love in GOTM when someone (Toc? Ganoes?) rambles about the list of amazing heroes from the Bridgeburners and they list 4 names: "Whiskeyjack, Detoran, Spindle and..." someone else. I love the idea that even 'regs' like Detoran and Spindle are heroes to the uninitiated.

[Kanese S's]

I actually came to identify with the Bonehunters as a group more than with the Bridgeburners. Y'ghatan and the docks at Malaz City pretty much did it for me. Maybe it's because in a way they seem more bitter, angrier than the Bridgeburners. Both were betrayed by the Empress, but for the Bridgeburners, they had a feeling that was what was going on for a long time, and some good guesses as to the reason for it (too loyal personally to Whiskeyjack and Dujek, too much a holdover from the Emperor, etc.), and the efforts to get them killed consisted of just throwing them into really dangerous missions. The Bonehunters on the other hand, had no idea they were going to pretty much be sacrificed until they got back to Malaz City and found, instead of a hero's welcome, mobs out for their blood, and orders to disarm. The betrayal was sudden, and to most of them, completely unexpected and unexplained. It really got me, I think it was in Reaper's Gale, the line that began "We did everything she asked of us..."

[Voodoo]

Thanks to you all for the responses. I love seeing all the different perspectives on this site that vary from my own in minor, and major, degrees. It's a wonder how many people take different things from the same peice of work.

As far as my inital questions and impression, I'm thinking that Illona and Tatter nailed for me what I just couldn't put down by myself. But as I just put down MoI (on yet another reread) I think it does come down to their main ideas: The Bridgeburners just have more options and chances to be individually epic at every turn. Detoran's sacrifice, Trotts duel, Kalam/Fiddlers adventures, QB's blasting the crippled god, Hedge's stand, Whiskeyjacks defense of Silverfox, etc and so forth. Even the minor BB's did something epic at one point or another (Bluepearl I believe teleports water into soldiers lungs... epic).

Just the pure heroics of the BB's in a single book seemed to outweight all of the individual achievements of the BH's on a character by character basis, as well as acting as a supreme fighting group, with effortless teamwork and shared objectives.

However, for the state of things, the BH's definately rang truer to me as a "fighting force". They were lost, confused, didn't get along, spent more time bickering and arguing amongst themselves then actually doing anything, and yet when push came to shove they were there for eachother. Definately more humanizing, which I believe was the goal of SE going into following these folks for, what, 5 of the 10 books?

As Kanese states, the efforts of killing the BB's out tossed them into one dangerous situation after another builds up that level of "EPIC", while a more limited cast of BB's makes the job of getting to know each one inside and out a lot quicker of a process, which I think may have lead to my extreme attachment to them.

[King-of-Chains]

You know, I've just started my second read through and I noticed something. The Bridgeburners are overly glorfied. They're a legend, and legends are often sparkly things with extra glitter and roses to look and smell nice. Erikson kind of works that into your mind. Letting you believe your own little fantasy. But, rereading GotM showed me something important. The Bridgeburners aren't what people made them to be. Sure it's one thing for Fid and Hedge to say it flat out, but it's another to witness it again. Whiskeyjack is pretty rough, and plays it close. He isn't a hero, just a man, and that's what makes it that much more appealing. You want to believe these soldier are more.

I think Erikson didn't try to make the ending about anyone in particular. He just let you decide. The man does that a lot, doesn't he? Why haven't these books been given awards?

[worry]

Legendary post!

[Sinisdar Toste]

 King-of-Chains, on 12 May 2011 - 02:34 AM, said:

You know, I've just started my second read through and I noticed something. The Bridgeburners are overly glorfied. They're a legend, and legends are often sparkly things with extra glitter and roses to look and smell nice. Erikson kind of works that into your mind. Letting you believe your own little fantasy. But, rereading GotM showed me something important. The Bridgeburners aren't what people made them to be. Sure it's one thing for Fid and Hedge to say it flat out, but it's another to witness it again. Whiskeyjack is pretty rough, and plays it close. He isn't a hero, just a man, and that's what makes it that much more appealing. You want to believe these soldier are more.

I think Erikson didn't try to make the ending about anyone in particular. He just let you decide. The man does that a lot, doesn't he? Why haven't these books been given awards?

these books are the kind that found awards traditions. like outstanding innovation in the field of fantasy. though they do deserve much more cred than they get.


on topic, i'd say that i also came to favour the BH as a whole over the BB. but i mean, the BB never really go away, so it's not like i miss them and resent the BH for not being them. i mean, how can you not love Stormy and Gesler, Balm, Bottle, Smiles, Urb, Hellian and all the rest?

maybe that's just me though, but i never had trouble keeping all the BH straight cuz i loved all their quirks.

[Voodoo]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 12 May 2011 - 03:37 AM, said:

these books are the kind that found awards traditions. like outstanding innovation in the field of fantasy. though they do deserve much more cred than they get.


on topic, i'd say that i also came to favour the BH as a whole over the BB. but i mean, the BB never really go away, so it's not like i miss them and resent the BH for not being them. i mean, how can you not love Stormy and Gesler, Balm, Bottle, Smiles, Urb, Hellian and all the rest?

maybe that's just me though, but i never had trouble keeping all the BH straight cuz i loved all their quirks.

It's not so much that I had trouble keeping them straight, it's just that even with the time given to them, I picked up more about the "group" and being a "soldier" and an "army" then I did about the characters. Throatslitter is to me what QB and Cotillion seem to be to 90% of the posters around here, but still, almost each bridgeburner was defined as a person, a soldier, a personality, in relationship to all others, and did something heroic. Each BH was a soldier that occasionally did something and had some epic moments. I don't mean to say that they didn't have a general scope of these things, but I do mean it just wasn't as clearly defined.

For example (and I'll use Throatslitter), we find out he's a Talon, and he believes in gathering as much information as possible, even if he hordes it. Then he laughs terribly. That's about all we get for who he is, and what he's all about. For his actions, we tackles Fiddler, crawls around some bushes, and I think he knifes a couple guys here and there. Enough to be my favorite character to be sure, but as for raw attachment to him, I'm personally just not feeling it.

With a BB (lets use Blend, a sneaky BB equivelent to Throatslitter as Kalam, being an assassin, gets to much screen time to make my point, and therefore would not make it at all) we know she's sneaky as all hell, she believes it to be because of (and my quote-fu is weak here at 3 in the morning) ?magic stones?. We know she and Picker are rocking a relationship. We know her deep sleep problems, her quickness with a blade, How she stands, what she sounds like, and the many epic moments she's personally given.

As the books span, we have more time to spend with Throatslitter, but walk away knowing much more about Blend. Multiply this across both groups, and you do end up with a group as King-In-Chains says "built to be epic", but i'll have ot counterpoint that in individual instances, the BB's have more chances to do the epic things than the BH's. Saying that it was all fluff is a little underplayed.

A good point is also raised when discussing many of the characters such as Gesler, Stormy, Bottles - They do recieve some of the key treatment, but I always generally put them in play with people such as QB - characters built to be epic because without them, it's just a story of walking (an overgeneralization to be sure, and not my true feelings, but I do hope the analogy makes sense. There is more than walking, this isn't Lord of the Rings!). But even heavily done BH's such as Smiles and Koryk, we still don't get that level of grandeur that we see with Picker, or Blend, or Spindle. They just seem to be there to give us a point of view about "soldiering life" and then move on.

But please, don't get me wrong, I did love many of the BH's, and in the series, I wouldn't change much. In fact, my only real change (other than GotMisms) would be to expand the characterizations of these characters. Tell me why I care that Throatslitter is a Talon. Let him do something Talony. Tell me why I care that Koryk went off the deep-end after his sickness. Other than some complaining, he snapped back to old Koryk when stuff hit the fan. A lot of the BH info seemed like filler to ensure you couldn't call his characters rote.

I did read somewhere that the speculation of all of this information was so that you could imagine the characters after all of this story went down (Smiles/Throatslitter keep on going, we just don't see it), but really, in a world governed by what we're told, couldn't I have just imagined the same thing without the pages of unneeded information?

I just wish the BH'ers recieved the same character treatment the BB's did, is all. All of SE's characters seem pretty damn epic. Just some got the short end of the stick.

But I guess when confined to deadlines and page amount, you can't do everything.

[MillionSpots]

I love the Bridgeburners more. I chalk this up to the fact that I've read about them first, and even though they've been drastically reduced in number, they still had impact. Also, MoI totally endeared them to me. There's only a few Bridgeburners to identify with, and every one of them was, for me, memorable, whereas there's an army of Bonehunters to take heed of--and only few of them made the same impact. Sure they can be badass, but then again, they were just on the way to being awesome, while the BBs are already legendary.

Not that I don't like the Bonehunters. I do like the ones who crawled out of Y'ghatan; they were better treated than, say, Badan Gruk and Sinter's batch.

[Kanese S's]

Yeah, like Sinisdar Toste, I found it easy to keep track of a lot of the more frequently mentioned Bonehunters. All the ones you mentioned stick out in my mind quite well.

I think another part of the different feel, too, is that the Bridgeburners are already legendary when we first meet them. The Bonehunters haven't even acquired their name yet, they're mostly green recruits, and... well... disciplined and professional are two words I wouldn't use to describe them when they're introduced.

This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 12 May 2011 - 09:26 AM

[Use Of Weapons]

Some of the individual Bonehunters rose to the same level as the Bridgeburners you mention. Hellian, Urb, Truth, Brethless (some of the funniest things Hellian says are when she merges the twins into one composite soldier), Faradan Sort, Kindly, Grub, Sinn, Pores, Tarr -- they're all as memorable for me as any of the 9th squad Bridgeburners.

[King-of-Chains]

 Voodoo, on 12 May 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

 Sinisdar Toste, on 12 May 2011 - 03:37 AM, said:

these books are the kind that found awards traditions. like outstanding innovation in the field of fantasy. though they do deserve much more cred than they get.


on topic, i'd say that i also came to favour the BH as a whole over the BB. but i mean, the BB never really go away, so it's not like i miss them and resent the BH for not being them. i mean, how can you not love Stormy and Gesler, Balm, Bottle, Smiles, Urb, Hellian and all the rest?

maybe that's just me though, but i never had trouble keeping all the BH straight cuz i loved all their quirks.

It's not so much that I had trouble keeping them straight, it's just that even with the time given to them, I picked up more about the "group" and being a "soldier" and an "army" then I did about the characters. Throatslitter is to me what QB and Cotillion seem to be to 90% of the posters around here, but still, almost each bridgeburner was defined as a person, a soldier, a personality, in relationship to all others, and did something heroic. Each BH was a soldier that occasionally did something and had some epic moments. I don't mean to say that they didn't have a general scope of these things, but I do mean it just wasn't as clearly defined.

For example (and I'll use Throatslitter), we find out he's a Talon, and he believes in gathering as much information as possible, even if he hordes it. Then he laughs terribly. That's about all we get for who he is, and what he's all about. For his actions, we tackles Fiddler, crawls around some bushes, and I think he knifes a couple guys here and there. Enough to be my favorite character to be sure, but as for raw attachment to him, I'm personally just not feeling it.

With a BB (lets use Blend, a sneaky BB equivelent to Throatslitter as Kalam, being an assassin, gets to much screen time to make my point, and therefore would not make it at all) we know she's sneaky as all hell, she believes it to be because of (and my quote-fu is weak here at 3 in the morning) ?magic stones?. We know she and Picker are rocking a relationship. We know her deep sleep problems, her quickness with a blade, How she stands, what she sounds like, and the many epic moments she's personally given.

As the books span, we have more time to spend with Throatslitter, but walk away knowing much more about Blend. Multiply this across both groups, and you do end up with a group as King-In-Chains says "built to be epic", but i'll have ot counterpoint that in individual instances, the BB's have more chances to do the epic things than the BH's. Saying that it was all fluff is a little underplayed.

A good point is also raised when discussing many of the characters such as Gesler, Stormy, Bottles - They do recieve some of the key treatment, but I always generally put them in play with people such as QB - characters built to be epic because without them, it's just a story of walking (an overgeneralization to be sure, and not my true feelings, but I do hope the analogy makes sense. There is more than walking, this isn't Lord of the Rings!). But even heavily done BH's such as Smiles and Koryk, we still don't get that level of grandeur that we see with Picker, or Blend, or Spindle. They just seem to be there to give us a point of view about "soldiering life" and then move on.

But please, don't get me wrong, I did love many of the BH's, and in the series, I wouldn't change much. In fact, my only real change (other than GotMisms) would be to expand the characterizations of these characters. Tell me why I care that Throatslitter is a Talon. Let him do something Talony. Tell me why I care that Koryk went off the deep-end after his sickness. Other than some complaining, he snapped back to old Koryk when stuff hit the fan. A lot of the BH info seemed like filler to ensure you couldn't call his characters rote.

I did read somewhere that the speculation of all of this information was so that you could imagine the characters after all of this story went down (Smiles/Throatslitter keep on going, we just don't see it), but really, in a world governed by what we're told, couldn't I have just imagined the same thing without the pages of unneeded information?

I just wish the BH'ers recieved the same character treatment the BB's did, is all. All of SE's characters seem pretty damn epic. Just some got the short end of the stick.

But I guess when confined to deadlines and page amount, you can't do everything.

I don't think size was an issue for Erikson. TTH is nearly 1300 pages long, so it's not like he's lacking words. Deadlines? I've seen authors go for over 2 years without giving readers anything worthwhile. Personally I would have waited longer for TCG simply because it's Erikson and I know he doesn't disappoint. Love or hate the ending, you have to admit it's a quality of writing rarely seen these days.

However, your feelings about the Bonehunters being underplayed are justified. The Bonehunters were never supposed to be viewed as a legend. The novel named for them gives you a prime example. They were exiled, Laseen wanted them all dead, so that no one could contradict the events of The Chain of Dogs. Unlike the Bridgeburners everything the Bonehunters did remained unwitnessed. The Bridgeburners were forged in Raraku when they chased Quick Ben across it. Then they went off and took Seven Cities. The Bonehunters struggled to not kill eachother by the time they reached Raraku, and then, once there, they did absolutely nothing. Well, aside from Tavore stabbing Felisin.

Sure the Bridgeburners were wiped out, but they even did that in some "glorious" fashion. And then, they fucking Ascend. Bonehunters simply go on, cross an uncrossable desert and have everyone nearly die. The difference is that the Bonehunters have no one really to turn them into a legend. Sure on Lether they're going to be known as unstoppable, but, not in their home land. Hell, I don't even think many of them do go home, but that's speculation. All I know is that the Malazan world works in cycles. So, yeah we hear about the greatness of the Bridgeburners in TMBotF. Meanwhile we witness the struggles and humanity of the Bonehunters. But, maybe they'll be the new Bridgeburners so to speak. We saw their story, but we didn't see the product of it.

[Sinisdar Toste]

 Voodoo, on 12 May 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

 Sinisdar Toste, on 12 May 2011 - 03:37 AM, said:

these books are the kind that found awards traditions. like outstanding innovation in the field of fantasy. though they do deserve much more cred than they get.


on topic, i'd say that i also came to favour the BH as a whole over the BB. but i mean, the BB never really go away, so it's not like i miss them and resent the BH for not being them. i mean, how can you not love Stormy and Gesler, Balm, Bottle, Smiles, Urb, Hellian and all the rest?

maybe that's just me though, but i never had trouble keeping all the BH straight cuz i loved all their quirks.

It's not so much that I had trouble keeping them straight, it's just that even with the time given to them, I picked up more about the "group" and being a "soldier" and an "army" then I did about the characters. Throatslitter is to me what QB and Cotillion seem to be to 90% of the posters around here, but still, almost each bridgeburner was defined as a person, a soldier, a personality, in relationship to all others, and did something heroic. Each BH was a soldier that occasionally did something and had some epic moments. I don't mean to say that they didn't have a general scope of these things, but I do mean it just wasn't as clearly defined.

For example (and I'll use Throatslitter), we find out he's a Talon, and he believes in gathering as much information as possible, even if he hordes it. Then he laughs terribly. That's about all we get for who he is, and what he's all about. For his actions, we tackles Fiddler, crawls around some bushes, and I think he knifes a couple guys here and there. Enough to be my favorite character to be sure, but as for raw attachment to him, I'm personally just not feeling it.

With a BB (lets use Blend, a sneaky BB equivelent to Throatslitter as Kalam, being an assassin, gets to much screen time to make my point, and therefore would not make it at all) we know she's sneaky as all hell, she believes it to be because of (and my quote-fu is weak here at 3 in the morning) ?magic stones?. We know she and Picker are rocking a relationship. We know her deep sleep problems, her quickness with a blade, How she stands, what she sounds like, and the many epic moments she's personally given.

As the books span, we have more time to spend with Throatslitter, but walk away knowing much more about Blend. Multiply this across both groups, and you do end up with a group as King-In-Chains says "built to be epic", but i'll have ot counterpoint that in individual instances, the BB's have more chances to do the epic things than the BH's. Saying that it was all fluff is a little underplayed.

A good point is also raised when discussing many of the characters such as Gesler, Stormy, Bottles - They do recieve some of the key treatment, but I always generally put them in play with people such as QB - characters built to be epic because without them, it's just a story of walking (an overgeneralization to be sure, and not my true feelings, but I do hope the analogy makes sense. There is more than walking, this isn't Lord of the Rings!). But even heavily done BH's such as Smiles and Koryk, we still don't get that level of grandeur that we see with Picker, or Blend, or Spindle. They just seem to be there to give us a point of view about "soldiering life" and then move on.

But please, don't get me wrong, I did love many of the BH's, and in the series, I wouldn't change much. In fact, my only real change (other than GotMisms) would be to expand the characterizations of these characters. Tell me why I care that Throatslitter is a Talon. Let him do something Talony. Tell me why I care that Koryk went off the deep-end after his sickness. Other than some complaining, he snapped back to old Koryk when stuff hit the fan. A lot of the BH info seemed like filler to ensure you couldn't call his characters rote.

I did read somewhere that the speculation of all of this information was so that you could imagine the characters after all of this story went down (Smiles/Throatslitter keep on going, we just don't see it), but really, in a world governed by what we're told, couldn't I have just imagined the same thing without the pages of unneeded information?

I just wish the BH'ers recieved the same character treatment the BB's did, is all. All of SE's characters seem pretty damn epic. Just some got the short end of the stick.

But I guess when confined to deadlines and page amount, you can't do everything.

well, i'll tell you why i care that koryk went off the deep end. right from the start, koryk is set up to be a perennial outsider. he didn't get a new name in training, he's a half-blood son of a whore, keeping the seti traditions when even full-blooded seti have let them lapse. all his memories that we get are of him being an outsider, or outcast and trying desperately to prove to everybody that he's worth something. In RG i thought, "hell yeah, Koryk and Smiles are gonna hook up! way to go buddy!" but then he catches that ague and he comes out of it underweight, bitter, and replaced by corabb. throughout DoD he's pushed more and more to the outside, especially with that "I'm this squads fist" scene, where supposed friends seem to completely ignore him when he's trying to assert his identity. maybe it's because i've suffered forms of ostracization at certain times in my life, but koryk's story really hit me hard. especially in tCG, where we find out that koryk regained some honour standing against the nah'ruk, but he's still bitter enough to mouth of to fiddler and get smacked in the head for it. and of course, the first time he ever sees somebody look at him with love in their eyes (other than his mother i suppose) cotillion has to go and stab the guy in the back. his POV was a brilliant one to have witness that event imo, because it showed us just how deeply and miraculously the sacrifice of the BH has changed ol' kaminsod. all in all, koryk is probably my favourite of the recruits who we get to know from HoC onward. i know some people say bottle becoz he's like QB MKII, but as an individual character, unique for his own reasons, koryk was absolutely my favourite.

[parabola01]

I agree with the original poster, and I think SE expects us to - that's why he ends TCG dealing with Bridgeburner specific plot threads.
Re: the post about BB being legends and not really as they are remembered as, Fiddler ot Hedge makes that exact point in TCG (can't remember exactly who) when someone's complaining about BH.


This is my first post.. just wanted to add how friggin depressed I am at finishing the series; I found it for the first time a few months ago and I just finished. Epic and amazing.

[Voodoo]

I'm loving that we're all constantly using the same ideas to argue different points. Like I said before, I love how SE's works can use the same information to draw different conclusions in the reader:

-BB's built to be epic
-BH's being stagnant for awhile
-BH's few characters rising to levels of "heroism" seen in BB
-BH's slowly evolving into their own dynamic characters (The look at Koryk tells me I must have overlooked a lot of character information and just didn't connect the dots)
-BB's always being around, never quite going away
-BH's "product of adventure" not being defined yet.

We all seem to agree on these points (with few exceptions), and now I think we're all just discussing personal literary semantics and perspective (what's given over what can be assumed, and vice versa) using the same ideas. Which is perfectly alright, as this was a thread meant to do just that.

Through this discussion I'm quite enjoying the look at the BB vs BH in terms of "Already Heroes vs Becoming Heroes" - the idea that reflected actions of veteran soldiers, and how a tightly knit group, compares to those in (relatively) the same situations who are not tightly knit.

To further increase my nerddom, I think comparing the two armies is like sitting back and saying,

"What would the differences be if we sent an army of Jedi's to this specific battle -- then sent an army of guys we picked off of the street and gave them 2 weeks to prepare, to the exact same battle"

And it's that difference I believe that the specific preference lay. Does one (like myself) idealize the badass-itude of hardened soliders, and glorify their ability to work together as a unit, and their willingness to sacrifice their lives for eachother (specifically). Or does one (like many others) idealize the trials and tribulations of carving out a place for yourself in the world.

I think a lot of it might come down to what Sinisdar Toste said " maybe it's because i've suffered forms of ostracization at certain times in my life" - someone, like Sinisdar (thanks for allowing the use of this example with your admission as well good sir) who had these issues, would likely prefer an army (BHs) wracked by people with these same issues, or at least reflect his feels and his hopes.

I'm not saying that's exactly the case, but it might be a good avenue to explore.

On my own end, I can definately see how my feelings towards "loyalty in friendship", and my subsequent issues with this throughout my life, leads me to cheer for the BB's through and through, as they reflect a group who's reached a state of this issue that I idealize.

[CussersForChristmas]

 King-of-Chains, on 12 May 2011 - 02:34 AM, said:

on topic, i'd say that i also came to favour the BH as a whole over the BB. but i mean, the BB never really go away, so it's not like i miss them and resent the BH for not being them. i mean, how can you not love Stormy and Gesler, Balm, Bottle, Smiles, Urb, Hellian and all the rest?

maybe that's just me though, but i never had trouble keeping all the BH straight cuz i loved all their quirks.

Don't forget Nep Furrow. I spent so much time trying to understand what he said and then laughing when I got it

"Kisshands?"

"Yes nep, my very own hands"

When Kisswhere offers to massage him for cursing kindly

[Studlock]

I don't understand how you could compare the BBs 'heroism' to the BH mostly because we have seen so little of the BB. I think, IMO, the BH are both my more 'heroic' and easier to care for. And if you want collective heroism there is plenty of it. The crawl under a melting city, the will to just keep on going, is a different kind of heroism. Fids squad at the end of BH. Taking of Lether. Fighting giant lizards that shoot lasers. Marching across a desert that couldn't be crossed. Showing compassion for a god that was seen none. If your looking for individual heroism looking no futher that anyone in Fids team. Tarr rallied the last of the marines to march back into the lizards. Bottle was literally tearing apart his mind. Corabb. Of course we also see the people who aren't heroes. I think that may be the biggest thing. We don't see the shitty BBs we only see the best but we see all of the BH. The good, the bad and the ugly.

[King-of-Chains]

 Studlock, on 13 May 2011 - 08:09 AM, said:

I don't understand how you could compare the BBs 'heroism' to the BH mostly because we have seen so little of the BB. I think, IMO, the BH are both my more 'heroic' and easier to care for. And if you want collective heroism there is plenty of it. The crawl under a melting city, the will to just keep on going, is a different kind of heroism. Fids squad at the end of BH. Taking of Lether. Fighting giant lizards that shoot lasers. Marching across a desert that couldn't be crossed. Showing compassion for a god that was seen none. If your looking for individual heroism looking no futher that anyone in Fids team. Tarr rallied the last of the marines to march back into the lizards. Bottle was literally tearing apart his mind. Corabb. Of course we also see the people who aren't heroes. I think that may be the biggest thing. We don't see the shitty BBs we only see the best but we see all of the BH. The good, the bad and the ugly.

Well that's the point that's being made here. By the time we see the Bridgeburners, they've done almost everything, except die off. When we enter their story in Gardens of the Moon we enter the beginning of the end for the Bridgeburners. They've spent years, if not decades, of pulling off the stuff of legends. Over all that time they've been glorified. And like Hedge says at one point, a lot of the Bridgeburners were assholes, and mean as hell. These are the guys who go through multiple officers in the span of a few years, because they kill them off. They're a company run by sergents. Over the course of the series we see this mentioned, especially by Hedge and Fiddler, but everyone else holds the Bridgeburners to this golden standard that they never really were. People just made them that way.

Look at The Chain of Dogs. Coltaine and the Wickans did something incredible. They saved 30,000 civillians and died in last stand to do it. However, the story was warped, by Laseen and Rel. In Seven Cities it was something incredible and brave, but Laseen couldn't have that. What happens to legends all depends on the people who hear those legends, and what they want done with them. Another display of humanity. Humanity can raise the ugly just as easily as they crush the noble.

The Bonehunters are unknowns. We will never know what will become of their story, because we witnessed what they did, but we won't see what that story becomes. Again, I speculate the Letherii and their allies will glorify the Bonehunters as the greatest soldiers in history. But what about Malaz? I doubt Rel is going to care, because the Bonehunters were exiled. As far as the Empire knows, the Bonehunters are dead. So in Malaz there will be no story. Unless Fid makes a song about it XD

[Sanctume]

What I find cool (fantasy / uber gamer / epic) about the Bridgeburner is what made their story original and complete from begin to end.
I can picture in my head their overall structure or framework that I can feel comfortable being with them be it fighting with them or fighting them (game-wise, or roleplaying).
They are part of the Malazan Empire. There seems to be loyalty within them. They got diverse skills and the impression of a self sustaining group, elite.
Then there is that very unique story that the entire Bridgeburner ascends--soldier ascendants! That's very cool to me.

The Bonehunters was very unclear of their purpose, just as how much I can like or enjoy Tavore's purpose. Yes, I know there's purpose there and it is slowly getting clear in the end, but at the same time, the coolness factor that I'd want to be part of-- it is not there for me. Ironically, that's the Bonehunter's purpose--to be unwitnessed. Sure I get touched by the emotional impact of the setup. Yes, I get that idea of being great and being unwitnessed by history because only the cool stuff if passed on in history.