Malazan Empire: Foil, epee or saber? - Malazan Empire

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Foil, epee or saber? Fencing

#1 User is offline   Knapper 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 02:22 AM

Hey all,

First post here. Why is it in the sports forum do you ask? Well, after making my way through the Malazan series, my biggest question for Steve is, what weapon do you fence? (not that I'm expecting him to answer right away, but maybe someone else knows?)

I am a big Malazan fan, but an even bigger fencing fan. I was pretty stoked upon learning that Steve is a fencer (and a Canadian one at that!), and I can definitely see the influence in his writing.

So does anyone know the answer? Also, any other fencers here? I know it is a niche sport, but maybe there is a higher ratio of fencers that are fantasy fans?

Cheers.
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#2 User is offline   King Bear 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 03:52 AM

View PostKnapper, on 10 May 2011 - 02:22 AM, said:

Hey all,

Well, after making my way through the Malazan series, my biggest question for Steve is, what weapon do you fence? (not that I'm expecting him to answer right away, but maybe someone else knows?)


Cheers.

Didn't know he fenced. I want to see him in action Posted Image

And sorry to be the bearer of ill news but while Erikson visits this forum it's only to read our comments, not to post. I have it on hearsay that he's worried that if he starts replying to us he'll get too caught up in the discussions and his writing will suffer as a result.

Happily some people on here, like Hetan, are friends of his so they'll probably be able to help with questions like this.

This post has been edited by Quickie Ben: 10 May 2011 - 03:56 AM

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#3 User is offline   The Tiger of Summer 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 04:28 AM

He uses a saber.

I have divined this by casting the knuckles into a virgin cow's turd and then farting into the wind.
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#4 User is offline   King Bear 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 04:51 AM

View PostThe Tiger of Summer, on 10 May 2011 - 04:28 AM, said:

He uses a saber.

I have divined this by casting the knuckles into a virgin cow's turd and then farting into the wind.
Elder Magic.


Excellent Excrement deduction my dear fellow.
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#5 User is offline   Tavvar 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 04:52 AM

I use a foil. Mostly because I haven't learned the others and I teach foil at a summer camp, so I need to focus on that.

For your fencers-to-fantasy fan ratio: Two of my friends in the Fencing club at my school (six total this semester) are are currently in the process of getting though aSoIaF and generally like sci fi/ fantasy, so maybe its a good ratio?
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#6 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 05:35 AM

Some say that he uses a stone sword annealed with the blood of goodkind fans.
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#7 User is offline   King Bear 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 07:10 AM

View PostBattle Plaptypus, on 10 May 2011 - 05:35 AM, said:

Some say that he uses a stone sword annealed with the blood of goodkind fans.


I always thought that was you Apt.
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#8 User is offline   Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 08:50 AM

His duel scenes give the impression of an epéeist to me but then again, his preferred weapon probably doesn't have much of a bearing on how he writes a duel.

I'd consider myself a foilist because that's what I fence most, and it's what I'd do in competition but to be honest, I can't be bothered with competitions much -- they're so expensive and when you're getting knocked out after the first couple of DE bouts, more often than not....

I used to be pretty good at sabre but then I let that slip a bit when a lot of the sabruers in the club disappeared, though I'm rather keen to start fencing sabre more regularly. Epée's just foil but more awesome. I don't think I actually have a favourite weapon, if I'm honest.

I haven't been fencing in about 3 months though as I'm currently unemployed and I wanted to start a martial art and I can't afford to do both, so I thought I'd put the fencing on hold for a bit and do something new. However, I'm hoping to get down to the club on Friday, as I really want to fence now (it's £10 for a session though)!

Also, anyone seen the Bob Anderson rapier on the Leon Paul site? That looks awesome! xD
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#9 User is offline   amphibian 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 01:23 PM

View PostJade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast, on 10 May 2011 - 08:50 AM, said:

I haven't been fencing in about 3 months though as I'm currently unemployed and I wanted to start a martial art

You live in the same city as Braulio and Victor Estima (two of the finest grapplers on the planet) and Roger Gracie (the finest grappler on the planet). That's an enviable situation to be in for someone to begin a new martial art.

So... pick Brazilian jiu-jitsu! You'll not regret it!

And I "fenced" with a piece of rebar and a crappy costume short sword we kids found in the garage. Delivering a blow with the flat of the blade to the backside is immensely satisfying.
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#10 User is offline   Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 03:45 PM

I do ninpo and jujutsu (because we do both at the dojo) and it's great fun!
The love I bear thee can afford no better term than this: thou art a villain.

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#11 User is offline   Sir Thursday 

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Posted 10 May 2011 - 11:43 PM

One of my housemates used to be an international standard fencer when he was younger (just missed out on making the British team when he was at school), but I haven't managed to get him to read Malazan...maybe I should trade the books for some lessons :).

I met Steve at a book signing once and he told a story about a mock fighting tournament he entered once in Canada. Said he got to the final by using the fencer's stance despite the fact that standing side on meant he could only use one weapon against his opponent's two. The way he was describing it made me think Epee, but it was a while ago and I don't think he ever explicitly said, so don't take that as gospel.


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#12 User is offline   Cyphon 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 09:16 AM

If Indiana Jones teaches us anything, it is, with this choice you choose is a gun.

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 11 May 2011 - 09:44 AM

Para todos todo, para nosotros nada.

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#13 User is offline   Gothos 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 09:24 AM

Just asking here:
1. What are the most important differences between the three in build and handling?
2. Why is the valid target zone different for the three weapons?
It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; because there is not effort without error and shortcomings; but who does actually strive to do the deed; who knows the great enthusiasm, the great devotion, who spends himself in a worthy cause, who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement and who at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly. So that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.
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#14 User is offline   Loki 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 09:31 AM

I find that a man holding a saber is at least three times more attractive then a man holding an epee or a foil.



I thought we should cover all areas of the discussion.

Wry, on 29 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

And you're not complaining, you're criticizing. It's a side-effect of being better than everyone else, I get it sometimes too.

~TQB~
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#15 User is offline   King Bear 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 09:49 AM

View PostLoki, on 11 May 2011 - 09:31 AM, said:

I find that a man holding a saber is at least three times more attractive then a man holding an epee or a foil.



I thought we should cover all areas of the discussion.


But if the man with the epee or foil is Garrus, does this statement stand?
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#16 User is offline   Loki 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 10:00 AM

View PostQuickie Ben, on 11 May 2011 - 09:49 AM, said:

View PostLoki, on 11 May 2011 - 09:31 AM, said:

I find that a man holding a saber is at least three times more attractive then a man holding an epee or a foil.



I thought we should cover all areas of the discussion.


But if the man with the epee or foil is Garrus, does this statement stand?


Firstly, Garrus wouldn't use an epee or foil.

However, allowing for all possible outcomes in all possible realities, I will allow for the possibility of Garrus using an epee or foil and shall answer your question thusly -

The statement no longer stands in this scenario as Garrus is always more attractive. :)

Wry, on 29 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

And you're not complaining, you're criticizing. It's a side-effect of being better than everyone else, I get it sometimes too.

~TQB~
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#17 User is offline   Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 10:07 AM

View PostGothos, on 11 May 2011 - 09:24 AM, said:

Just asking here:
1. What are the most important differences between the three in build and handling?
2. Why is the valid target zone different for the three weapons?


The foil is based upon a training weapon, I believe, and it's the smallest and lightest of the three. Hits are made with the point only and are limited to the torso only -- no arms, no legs and no head (they would all be considered off-target); the back is a valid target, if you can hit it, though turning your back on your opponent isn't allowed for safety reasons. Foil fencing uses a system of 'right of way', so in order to get a hit, the fencer must have right of way by either having his or her arm extended (before the opponent) or by parrying the opponent's attack (in a nutshell, anyway -- it's a bit more complicated than that).

Based upon a dueling rapier, an Epée is similar to the foil but it's a bit more...heavy duty -- the guard covers the entire hand and the blade is sturdier, it's also the heaviest weapon. As in foil fencing, hits are made with the point only, however there are no restrictions to the target area and no 'right of way' conventions. It's essentially whoever hits first gets the point. (For this reason, you can get double hits in epée, where both fencers hit at the same time and both are awarded the point -- if this happened with foil, no point would be given unless the referee was able to work out who had the right of way.)

No one's really certain about the origins of the sabre but i've read in places that it's decended from the sabres used by cavalry...somewhere. Heavier than a foil but lighter than an epée, it has a large guard that protects from cuts to the hand. It's a cutting weapon, so points are scored with the edge of the blade as well as the point. Target area is from the waist upwards but not including the hands and sabre fencing uses the same 'right of way' conventions as in foil fencing.

Also, something that annoys me when people who've never had a sabre lesson but fancy a bit of a knock about keep doing -- cross-over steps going forward are not allowed in sabre, so don't do it (no flèches either, as that still counts as crossing your feet)! Cross-over steps backwards are fine, though.

This post has been edited by Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast: 11 May 2011 - 10:30 AM

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#18 User is offline   Loki 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 10:12 AM

One of the guys in my Welsh class is sword master or whatever they are called. I'll ask him next week what his thoughts are.

Wry, on 29 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

And you're not complaining, you're criticizing. It's a side-effect of being better than everyone else, I get it sometimes too.

~TQB~
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#19 User is offline   masan's saddle 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 12:13 PM

View PostLoki, on 11 May 2011 - 10:12 AM, said:

One of the guys in my Welsh class is sword master or whatever they are called. I'll ask him next week what his thoughts are.



Well i'm Welsh and a master swordsman (Porcine level1), you could just ask me.... :)
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#20 User is offline   Loki 

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Posted 11 May 2011 - 01:59 PM

View Postmasan, on 11 May 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

View PostLoki, on 11 May 2011 - 10:12 AM, said:

One of the guys in my Welsh class is sword master or whatever they are called. I'll ask him next week what his thoughts are.



Well i'm Welsh and a master swordsman (Porcine level1), you could just ask me.... :)


Okay :)

What do YOU think?

Wry, on 29 February 2012 - 10:50 AM, said:

And you're not complaining, you're criticizing. It's a side-effect of being better than everyone else, I get it sometimes too.

~TQB~
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