[King-of-Chains]

So through all the scenes involving The Snake in DoD Held is at least mentioned once. Held is supposed to important somehow, I understand we'll never get a full story. And then we get to TCG. Again Held is mentioned in the theme of grand importance, I even think implies Held contains some crazy amount of magical potential. But then The Snake reaches The Bonehunters Fiddler takes Held from Rutt's arms, and it kind of implies Held died some time ago. Did I completely miss something, or was Held only used as a literary device?

[HoosierDaddy]

I don't know. I assumed Held was dead all-along, and was being used by the children of the Snake as a rallying cry/totem for the purpose to their endless march and misery. Kind of like the tunic of a child Gruntle uses in MoI during Capustan.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 30 April 2011 - 04:31 AM

[CussersForChristmas]

If there's something else to get out of it besides the depravity of the world and its effect on children theme that runs rampant in these books I didn't catch it either. I feel like it would be hard to put another meaning into something like that because the symbolism and imagery is so intense as it is.

[worry]

I mostly agree with the above, but there was certainly mention of a potential disaster if Held opened her eyes. That might also be an aspect of the above explanations, but I can't say I understand it.

[HoosierDaddy]

worrywort, on 30 April 2011 - 05:52 AM, said:

I mostly agree with the above, but there was certainly mention of a potential disaster if Held opened her eyes. That might also be an aspect of the above explanations, but I can't say I understand it.

I don't recall that line, but perhaps it is still in the same vein. Held, their avatar of death/hope/survival (and I do believe they had them all wrapped up in one thing as only children can do), opening its eyes would mean they were dead, yes? Or some other sort of tragedy had befallen.

[dawnkiller]

Most of the hints come from Badalle.

p. 205: "Before Held became Held, Held had another name, and that name was Born. Born came from between the legs of a woman, a mother. Born came into this world with eyes of blue, blue as this sky, and blue they shall remain. We must go on, Rutt. We must live to see the day when a new colour finds Held's eyes, when Held goes back to being Born. ...You don't have to understand. We don't know who that mother was. We don't know who the new mother will be."

p. 381: "But you are Rutt. The head of the Snake. And Held, who is the tongue." (After this, Badalle takes the initiative and leads Rutt and the others to the Malazan army via warren.)

p. 600: "Where is Held? Held is gone. Held was gone long ago. And what Rutt carried in his arms was us, all that way. He carried us. ...He cannot hurt anyone, not Rutt. He carried our hope, but our hope died. But it wasn't his fault, it wasn't his fault. Mother, if you had been there - if you had seen-" (At this point, Hanavat gives Rutt her child.)


I think Held represents not only hope, but is almost . . . a key part of D'rek's manifestation, perhaps. Not only is the tongue the part of a snake that does the most navigating, but the inhabitants of the Snake are almost in stasis. True, they're dying daily, but their suffering has blurred into something near-endless, to the point everything but their wandering has been forgotten. They've definitely survived much more than they should have. I believe if Held had opened its eyes it would have symbolized a change in the order of things and thus the end of that protective stasis (so, like HD said, the Snake would die).

I read the quote from p. 205 as essentially a prophecy. Held died long ago, and the Snake will continue traveling until it finds the Malazan army, where Rutt will again hold a real, living child -- thus bringing them full-circle, out of their eternal suffering and back into the "real" world, where they are free to flourish or die, rather than malinger for eternity as part of a manifestation of D'rek. As soon as they joined the Malazans, Banaschar said they were only children again. (Although it's probably important to note that decay is necessary for the propogation of life, since one is necessary for the other, so D'rek's role in delivering the dead back into life isn't so strange.)

[Abyss]

HD and dk frame it nicely upthread.

I struggled a bit with the notion that Held had been dead already for a long time, but it worked.

Relatedly, there's the suggestion that D'rek was involved in the Snake, and i wonder whether held wasn't serving as the Worm's vessel. Sure they were walking in the desert and in dryness things won't rot, but even so, the fact that the body never fell apart or started to smell funky suggests maybe something more went on there.

All told it was still pretty heartbreaking because on some level i wanted to believe there was a point to Rutt carrying her all that way.

[dawnkiller]

Abyss, on 09 May 2011 - 06:44 PM, said:

All told it was still pretty heartbreaking because on some level i wanted to believe there was a point to Rutt carrying her all that way.

Well, there was -- Held was their symbol of hope, to the point I'd call it a fixed delusion on Rutt's part. It fit as well with one of the themes of TCG, which was that the children of the Snake had forgotten how to be children, and were in fact fulfilling the roles of adults (the elder children parenting the younger, reenacting things they remembered their parents doing and so on). Once they found the Malazan army there was no need for these artificial roles anymore, and so no need for Held.

(I also think that Held was a D'rek component. She was called the "tongue," after all.)

[worry]

Mummified Tongue is a pretty sweet heavy metal band name.

[dawnkiller]

worrywort, on 10 May 2011 - 12:53 AM, said:

Mummified Tongue is a pretty sweet heavy metal band name.

But is it better than "Baby Jerky?"

(I need to take myself to a corner for a time-out now.)

[The Tiger of Summer]

What about Mummified Baby Tongue Jerky?

[The Tiger of Summer]

Oh yah, and I thought Held was the Crippled God's heart. Looks like I hat my tin hat wired up too tight.,