[Midnight]

Hi All,

One of the plot lines that I found difficult to follow in TCG was Gruntle's.

As I understand it, it went something like this.

Kilava (who is Treach's mother after being raped by Fener) wounded Kettle House to open Starvald Demelain in order to counter Korabas' imminent release
Gruntle is driven towards the gate by Treach, presumably to stop the Eleint's arrival (seems Treach didn't understand that their release was necessary)
Kilava tries to warn Gruntle away by sending him dreams which Gruntle doesn't understand
Gruntle hates Treach and hopes to kill him in his battle with Kilava
Gruntle eventually dies after attacking the first Eleint through the gate.

Is this the impression that other people had of this storyline?

The conclusion seems to be that Treach made a bad choice in choosing Gruntle because he chose someone like himself, someone lacking in wisdom and it was that lack of wisdom that has been the source of Treach's various mistakes (like sending Gruntle to the gate).

And, as a final question, does Treach die? Gruntle talks about him crawling off somewhere to die...but did he die, or was he just wounded?

[Forkrul Asshole]

Pretty sure Trake's dead.


"Gruntle Heard Trake's death cry, and that howl itself seemed to catch fire in the conflagration of draconic magic."

[Aptorian]

Midnight, on 19 April 2011 - 12:53 AM, said:

Kilava (who is Treach's mother after being raped by Fener) wounded Kettle House to open Starvald Demelain in order to counter Korabas' imminent release

Fener raped Kilava? I never picked that up.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Gruntle says he saw the panther of his dreams gored by a boar and then says something about rape at which point Mappo frowns. I,too, didn't think that could have been Fener but it does make sense.

[Aptorian]

Man that is interesting. I never connected Kilava to the black panther before they finally met in TCG. It would be interesting to go back and read the DOD parts of Gruntles dreams now.

[Destiny]

I did realise that the black panther was Kilava, but then once we learn Trake is her son I had no idea why she would want to kill Gruntle.

I must have also completely missed the part where she gets raped by Fener. That will be interesting to take into account during my reread.

[Hocknose]

The bit that confuses me is that Treach was a first hero from The HUMAN first empire...now we find out that he was at least half Imass. Does that mean that all the Soletaken first heroes were linked to the Imass somehow.
Then I suppose that poses the question did Treach become Soletaken because of his mother or because of the Ritual...hmm

[King Lear]

I completely forgot about that! It does seem like it would be Fener, but that seems a little out of character for him (Don't call me out on that, I don't have much to back that up with). On the other hand, war and rape go together hand in glove, so there is a connection of sorts. I really need to get going with my reread.

[Tatterdemalion]

Kilava obvs. has soletaken form in MOI during scenes with Tool. Panthers don't come up much otherwise...

I also found Gruntle's death meaningless in the BIG SCENE - but poigniant to him, and that was how he would like it. This is emphasized when he thinks of Stonny as he dies. I thought that touching, but couldn't understand why Kilava seemed to coax him there just to say "Huh? Get out of here! Grrrr!" Perhaps Midnight's explanation makes sense that she was trying to warn him away but failed - but then, why even communicate with him at all? What were the odds of Gruntle coming to stop the Refugium's rending otherwise? It's not like Trake really had that strong a pull on Gruntle as a mortal (until he decided to veer and say 'fuck all this, I'm going to go die with pride')

[CussersForChristmas]

On the rape thing, I took it to mean that Gruntle just associates war with the rape of Stonny and in his rage against the unfairness of it all he gets all his motivations and memories confused and finds himself back in capustan in his head. IIRC he was trying to kill Trake himself to put an end to war/rape/etc... not the most clever decision but nobody ever claimed Gruntle was a genius.

[Ilona]

CussorsForChristmas, on 24 April 2011 - 06:21 AM, said:

On the rape thing, I took it to mean that Gruntle just associates war with the rape of Stonny and in his rage against the unfairness of it all he gets all his motivations and memories confused and finds himself back in capustan in his head.

That's the impression I got also. Whomever he's talking to in that scene - can't remember - also seems confused when he mentions the rape, as if it didn't fit the picture.

Also, I totally could have lived without the mental image of a panther being raped by a boar.

This post has been edited by Ilona: 24 April 2011 - 03:55 PM