[worry]

I imagine the Roz/Pycelle scene was there because she belongs to Littlefinger, and he's got his fingers in everything. As non-POV characters, they still gotta be players in the seasons to come. Also, everybody wondered where Roz was going, and I think this is ideal. I like the emphasis on the stupid and not-so-stupid men alike confiding in whores. In one sense, men of power are indulging their egos by doing so, with the full and mutual knowledge that her life is valued less by several magnitudes. So it's getting off on power. Doesn't necessarily have to be whores, of course, but in this case it tends to be. On the other hand, such indulgences can start a path to downfall, since we all know what assumptions do. And appearances deceive, there's ambitious people at all stations of life, etc.

With LF and Varys, I guess it was just an emphasis of same ol' same ol' for them. Ned's gone, they were ostensibly on different sides of the issue, but it's just one more chess move to them, not a gamechanger like it would be for everybody watching the show.

And yah, the Rickon scene is pretty much straight from the book, though what follows is slightly different...the kids are taken into Luwin's chambers for comfort, assured their dreams are just that, and then the raven comes from King's Landing while they're up there. Pretty chilling. But all the kids have wargy stuff in the books except Sansa, who loses her wolf too early, and Robb is never confirmed either way.

[worry]

Also, the Pycelle scene was very Deadwoody. Kinda out of left field in that way, but I enjoyed it.

[Cobbles]

Two things:

1) the witch dies without cursing Dany in the show
2) we don't see Jaqen.

[Gothos]

I loved it.
Dragons were done awesomely. Tywin is being Tywin. Robb is being Robb (KING IN THE NORTH!). Jon was appropriately emo. Jaime was Jaime. Everyone is so fucking right on the spot with their roles in this series I can only compare that to The Wire.

I wonder if there's a single soul in the world that feels sympathethic for Joffrey. Ever. I think it's the single most despicable and antagonising character in the history of everything.

So when's season two starting? /withdrawal

[worry]

You know, the scene in the show where he's crying over injured Robert. And at least one or two mentions in the books about how neglected and downright scorned he was by his "father," that kind of stuff. I mean even when he's doing the most horrible stuff, he's still a kid doing it. Which doesn't mean he's not an awful kid, but he wasn't born a monster. I think the contrast with Tommen and Myrcella is something of a test of compassion, because I don't think GRRM is absent of sympathy for him (or Cersei for that matter). He's making that line clear deliberately, but it's not about how awful Joff is compared to his siblings...it's about what he could have been, and what people have squeezed out of him. I don't think he would ever have had a big change of heart or redeemed himself, but what he was, was shaped by others.

[Gothos]

well, Sam has been neglected and downright scorned by his father, up to the point he threathened to have him killed - but he didn't turn out to be a monster, did he? I do think that the difference between Tommen/Myrcella and Joffrey is a similar take as Targaryens.

What strikes me in Joffrey is that he seems to do things just for the sake of being a sadist. Think he could have Ned beheaded just to screw with his mother and the entire kingdom out of revenge? I really don't think he's got it in him to see that far ahead. He's just a capricious, sadistic kid, and shouldn't have had the power to decide anything at this age. Which is, perhaps, Cersei's failing.

[Tapper]

Gothos, on 20 June 2011 - 08:34 AM, said:

well, Sam has been neglected and downright scorned by his father, up to the point he threathened to have him killed - but he didn't turn out to be a monster, did he? I do think that the difference between Tommen/Myrcella and Joffrey is a similar take as Targaryens.

What strikes me in Joffrey is that he seems to do things just for the sake of being a sadist. Think he could have Ned beheaded just to screw with his mother and the entire kingdom out of revenge? I really don't think he's got it in him to see that far ahead. He's just a capricious, sadistic kid, and shouldn't have had the power to decide anything at this age. Which is, perhaps, Cersei's failing.

Joffrey is the evidence of that psychology test where you can torture someone you do not see by pressing a button. A lot of people press that button when asked.

Also, do not forget that Ned's beheading is Joff's first public decision as king. He can listen to his parent (something no teenager is good at) and seem a puppet of his mother and councillors in the eyes of the public, or he can play king, make his own decision (which his mum says he should - remember that bit about fucking painted whores if he wants, because he is the king, and the subsequent argument about dealing with enemies?), please the crowd by giving them blood and seem his own man, as well as feeling the adrenaline rush through (making someone else) kill the person who raised his voice against him and who was out to get him.

The decision, gargantuan in its stupidity and consequences as it is, is nonetheless more or less defenseable from his PoV with an eye towards his upbringing, age and uncertainty.

[Gothos]

I guess people like Joffrey are the reason why people invented regency. No way in HELL he should've been given reign.

[worry]

The contrast with Sam is pretty apt though. They are also both "mama's boys" so to speak, though Sam may be more willing while Joff was out of necessity. He clearly is depicted as having, at least at a younger age, wanted to impress Robert so very much, and failing through some/no fault of his own. Sam was content not to impress Randall, or quit trying at some point. I wouldn't expect anyone to mourn for Joffrey at this point, but still perhaps for what he could have been.

The Targaryen thing is also a plausible factor, but I don't thin that GRRM is saying incest always leads to a roll of the dice with insanity. That said, Joff and Viserys do share some character traits in common.

[Cyphon]

No Gerald Butler as Stannis then?

[Tapper]

worrywort, on 20 June 2011 - 09:02 AM, said:

The Targaryen thing is also a plausible factor, but I don't thin that GRRM is saying incest always leads to a roll of the dice with insanity.

Rhaegar and Daenerys seem sane.

Joffrey was the rotten apple, but then he was born first with the pressure and expectation of becoming king, and being born while Cersei and Robert were still at war in their marriage, whereas at the least Tommen and quite likely Myrcella as well were born when they were at an armistice and Myrcella is described as being a real nice, polite kid, same for Tommen.

Most families have a black sheep, I guess the Lannisters just have a multiplier in effect.

[Cyphon]

I think the incest thing that GRRM goes for is that it's polarizing. You either get genius/admirable people - Danerys, Rheagar or nutters, - Viserys and Aeyrs. We have no idea about Tommen and Myrcella yet.

[Gothos]

That they do, yes. (though any minute now Tyr will burst into the topic and rage about it )
There are differences, yes, of course. There aren't any copy-paste characters in the series, though we do have sets of kids with different types of neglect.
There's Joffrey and Sam already mentioned.
Viserys goes on to raise himself and Dany pretty much on his own with no guidance and it doesn't lead anywhere nice.
Jon is wildly hated by Catelyn and as such has to be kept on the side, and Ned can never acknowledge his love and respect openly.
Tyrion is hated by his father and has been heavily traumatized by him in the past.
Robert Arryn suffers from not having a father and only having an overbearing, clinically insane fiend of a mother.
Theon was pretty well accepted with the Starks, but his homecoming is realy hell and he ends up absolutely screwed up trying to make a name for himself.
And, of course, Daenerys, whose only family she ever even knew was a troubled, mildly mad and not very inquisitive brother who treated her kinda like shit.

Now, there are many differences between how the different characters tackle that problem. Some win through, some become twisted and lost.
I do wonder at Tommen and Myrcella. What was their relationship with King Robert?

[Gothos]

little something I found!

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Ha! That's spreading fast on the Web.

Anyway: Dragons! Woohooo!

Also, King of the North! Was I the only one one who was shouting along with the bannersmen? Was I? Really? No one else?

Liked the scene with Arya and the other boys. Gendry wasn't bad,IMO.

The scene between Joffrey and Sansa was excellent. The way she makes her comments completely emotionless and then thinks of throwing him down the bridge,well acted.

As for Varys and Littlefinger verbal duel version 2, I believe I preferred it to the first. "And do you stay awake at night fearing my gash?" LOL!

Also, was Jaime showing some remorse when he couldn't answer why he wanted Bran dead?

Finally, I think the Night Watch filing out of the wall was a nice ending scene for that storyline.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 20 June 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

What was the point of the Maester Pycelle/Roz scene?

It sets up the scene in book two where we find out that not only is Pycelle putting on a lot of the "I'm a crotchety old maester and can't do much" routine, but also that he has a taste for whores. So during Tyrion's recruitment of loyalty at Kings Landing in ACOK when he thinks he has Pycelle, he doesn't and so he goes and finds him in bed with a whore and has him thrown in the dungeon.

Abyss, on 20 June 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

Or Varys and Littlefinger's chat, which was, while clever, basically the same conversation they've had at least twice already.

Yeah, this was essentially more of the same for me, too, but I was still okay with it.

Abyss, on 20 June 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

A finale Renly scene would have been useful.

I think they are holding back on Renly as a filmic standpoint thing, since Season 2 will open with Stannis and crew. It will be nice to follow that with Renly (who we haven't really seen since the boar hunt), already at Highgarden gathering his host to contrast them.


Above HD said something about Robb's attacking of the tree. I think it's to show just how "green" he still is. Even after the Whispering Wood and his bannermen backing him....he's still just a green boy. A teenager would attack that tree out of rage, just like a teen in our era would punch a wall. I totally dug that since it is bookended by Catelyn beating Jaime's face with a rock and proving how tough and badass she is...and is followed by the King In The North sequence. I think it was totally done on purpose.

[Ceda Cicero]

QuickTidal, on 20 June 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:

Abyss, on 20 June 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

Or Varys and Littlefinger's chat, which was, while clever, basically the same conversation they've had at least twice already.

Yeah, this was essentially more of the same for me, too, but I was still okay with it.

What worked for me about the Varys/Littlefinger scene was the first bit of the exchange where Varys asks Littlefinger if he visualizes the highborn lords and ladies who mocked him slinking by, and Littlefinger says that's hard to picture when they're all headless. It's a telling line considering what just happened to Ned, and ties back in to the possibility that Baelish nudged Joffrey to pop off Ned's head.

What didn't work for me was that this was the third or fourth time a scene opens with Littlefinger standing alone in the throne room staring at the Iron Throne with a massive hardon. It's a minor thing, a true nitpick, but man, Baelish is way too subtle and guarded to just hang out by the throne and gaze at it longingly.

The Pycelle/Roz scene... I dunno, I don't think it was awful, but it was definitely the low point of the episode for me. I think more than anything it was just a little summary of everything that just went down: Aerys was king, he went nuts, Robert was king, he kinda sucked, now Joffrey is king and he's "stern." It was also just fucking funny to me. All the hotheads at Westeros bitching and moaning about Roz and sexposition scenes and just when we think we might be shut of that for good, BAM, Father Christmas shows up for 10 minutes of wheezy storytime.

[Abyss]

Luzburg, on 19 June 2011 - 09:42 PM, said:

I just realised Jason Momoa was Khal Drogo. God how did I miss that :S

The eye shadow was very effective.

Sinisdar Toste, on 20 June 2011 - 04:00 AM, said:

...and of course FUCK YEAH DRAGONS!!!!

i liked how the green one her lap is kind of indistinct at first, and you're like, wait a minute... no... no those can't be, and then the black one peeks over her shoulder and you're like, oh fuck yeah, those are DRAGONS!! AWWWW YEEEEEAAAHH!...

Another instance where the show improved on the books, imnsho. In the books there's some vague thing about the dragons sucking at her breasts. I thought this worked WAY better, and the reaction of Jorah and the Khalissar was perfect.

worrywort, on 20 June 2011 - 04:14 AM, said:

I imagine the Roz/Pycelle scene was there because she belongs to Littlefinger, and he's got his fingers in everything. ...

Logical, but lost in the overall episode i thought. We just didn't need a close-out for the Maester and the ho.

Gothos, on 20 June 2011 - 07:50 AM, said:

...I wonder if there's a single soul in the world that feels sympathethic for Joffrey. Ever. I think it's the single most despicable and antagonising character in the history of everything.
...

Credit where due, this cast is NAILING every role.

Gothos, on 20 June 2011 - 09:14 AM, said:

...I do wonder at Tommen and Myrcella. What was their relationship with King Robert?

Hugely played down in the books. Tommen appears to have been too young and Myrcella, being a girl, largely ignored before she's shipped off to Dorne.

QuickTidal, on 20 June 2011 - 01:05 PM, said:

Abyss, on 20 June 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

What was the point of the Maester Pycelle/Roz scene?

It sets up the scene in book two where we find out that not only is Pycelle putting on a lot of the "I'm a crotchety old maester and can't do much" routine, but also that he has a taste for whores. So during Tyrion's recruitment of loyalty at Kings Landing in ACOK when he thinks he has Pycelle, he doesn't and so he goes and finds him in bed with a whore and has him thrown in the dungeon.

Again, makes sense, but would have fit better in S2.

Quote

Abyss, on 20 June 2011 - 03:42 AM, said:

A finale Renly scene would have been useful.

I think they are holding back on Renly as a filmic standpoint thing, since Season 2 will open with Stannis and crew. It will be nice to follow that with Renly (who we haven't really seen since the boar hunt), already at Highgarden gathering his host to contrast them....

Yah, i'm curious to see just how much Renly time we actually get in S2 before he's shadow assassin'd out of play. In theory for tv purposes we don't really need all that much of him before Stannis becomes a major player, and opening S2 with Brienne joining Renly's army just as he's killed would amp up the stakes nicely.


- Abyss, will seriously consider a S1 rewatch before S2.

[King Bear]

Best line ever from Tyrion:

"My father is probably the most powerful man in the country, certainly the richest. He has all seven kingdoms in his pockets. Everyone, everywhere always has to do what my father says...

He's always been a c**t."

made me lol lol lol.

This post has been edited by Future Warrior: 20 June 2011 - 02:59 PM