[Sir Thursday]

Neocount Cicero, on 19 April 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

McLovin, on 19 April 2011 - 01:42 PM, said:

Jahdu, on 19 April 2011 - 01:48 AM, said:

When I read it, in my minds eye, when Jaime says "The things I do for love" he does so in
a kind of whistful, sorrowful manner. In the TV episode the way the actor said that line
(and to me it was quite an important line in context of the story), it just didn't come
across with the gravity I expected.

I don't think that line was ever supposed to be wistful, sorrowful, or grave, even in the book. It was supposed to be flippant. When we first meet him, Jaime is an insincere prick.

In the book, he's described as having an expression of disgust on his face just before he shoves Bran. Which I thought I saw a hint of on the actor's face. As I've always read the scene, though, his momentary disgust at coming to terms with what he has to do is overcome by the time he actually utters "the things I do for love," which again I thought was reflected nicely in the show.

Spoilers for later ASoIaF books below...

Spoiler

My take is, at this point in the story, Jaime is - while not wholly without conscience (we can assume, but don't really know since we don't get his PoV until book 3) - pretty easily able to bury his own self-loathing and guilt and shame because he dresses it up with concepts of duty to his family. It's not until later that he realizes things don't work that way, first by meeting Brienne and having to redefine his conceptions of honor and duty, and second by realizing that his family (namely Tywin and Cersei) hardly merit that kind of justification.

Anyway, I digress. I did think the scene was well done, but I won't be surprised if the show makes it to season 3 and viewers who haven't read the books start expressing confusion and general discomfort when Jaime starts along a different path.

The "The things I do for love" line didn't work for me either, which is a shame, because it is THE line I associate with the series, and so getting it right was something I was really looking forward too (although I don't think it needed to be spot on for people who hadn't read the book before, because they'll have been too dumbstruck by Bran getting pushed to pay much attention anyway). If Jaime doesn't care, then he wouldn't say the line at all - casual and off the cuff just doesn't make sense.

Also, his otherwise OK English accent in the scene (you could hear the Danish slipping through a bit earlier) faded a way for that line, so it became "The things I do for lurve." Just sounded wrong.


Regarding the episode as a whole, I had my gripes about it, but I think they were in part a reaction to having seen so much of the episode already through the various advance clips that were released. Meant there wasn't that much that I hadn't already seen. The next episode shouldn't suffer from that problem, so hopefully it will be better.


ST

[Cyphon]

Abyss, on 20 April 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

Cyphon, on 18 April 2011 - 10:43 PM, said:

...Also, Jon Snow is yet to develop into the Suvudu esque powerhouse he will become.

BOOK SPOILERS btw, but no need for blocks in this thread...

Interesting things about Jon... suduvu aside, he never really becomes a 'powerhouse', which is part of why i like him. Solid swordsman with a badass pet, yes. But he's not Rand by a longshot.

I meant popularity powerhouse, as in every body loves him ect. ect. Not enough time to develop that yet. I think it might take longer with the limitations of expanding his character soley through physical aspects, rather than the POVs we get from the books.

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 20 April 2011 - 04:05 PM

[Abyss]

Cyphon, on 20 April 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

...I meant popularity powerhouse, as in every body loves him ect. ect. Not enough time to develop that yet. I think it might take longer with the limitations of expanding his character soley through physical aspects, rather than the POVs we get from the books.

Fair enough. In the books, Jon's storyline is one of the most 'action packed' and forward moving, especially while a lot of plotting and politicking is going on elseplot. His story is also the biggest source of the heavier fantasy elements in the series - White Walkers, snow zombies, giants, wargs, the Wall itself and all that good stuff... i think in the entire rest of the series we have Dany's dragons and Melisandre's shadow assassin babies... so it's no wonder Jon leads in pupularity among the Stark kids. His direwolf is also one of the coolest, altho i did like the way Arya's comes and goes after Lady's death.

[acesn8s]

Neocount Cicero, on 20 April 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 20 April 2011 - 03:04 PM, said:

Abyss, on 20 April 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

[

QuickTidal, on 19 April 2011 - 02:04 PM, said:

Neocount Cicero, on 19 April 2011 - 02:01 PM, said:

McLovin, on 19 April 2011 - 01:42 PM, said:

Jahdu, on 19 April 2011 - 01:48 AM, said:

When I read it, in my minds eye, when Jaime says "The things I do for love"...it just didn't come
across with the gravity I expected.

I don't think that line was ever supposed to be wistful, sorrowful, or grave, even in the book. It was supposed to be flippant. When we first meet him, Jaime is an insincere prick.

... I think it will be interesting to watch the "casual viewer" have to re-interpret their views of Jaime as he changes.

I thought it worked. The point isn't so much whether jaime comes across as he did in the book, rather, that his character goes through a similar transition from relatively amoral self-absorbed sisterfucker to generally noble conflicted dude.

The actor did a solid job so far. i liked his exchange with Ned at the feast... "If i'm going to fight a man, i don't like him to know what i can do!" in yoah FACE kinslayer!

Yeah right. As if Ned would ever have had a chance against Jaime.

Anyway, I agree. I really liked the actor that did Jaime, he was easily my favorite.

Ned took on Arthur Dayne the Sword of the f*cking Morning (who Jaime idolized and held in awe as a squire) along with Oswell Went AND Gerold Hightower, the Commander of Aerys's Kingsguard, to boot. Granted, Howland Reed was with him and by all accounts, Reed is fantastically badass in his own right. But in a match between Ned and Jaime - all things being equal, ie: Ned being younger and Jaime having his sword hand - I wouldn't sneeze at Ned's chances one bit.

Seeing as Robb defeated Jamie later in the series, I would think Ned would be a great matchup vs Jamie.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 20 April 2011 - 05:39 PM
Reason for edit: spoiler blocks removed. Books spoilers are allowed in this thread.

[Ceda Cicero]

@acesn8s - Robb's army defeats Jaime's army in the field, but, unless I completely missed it on my last reread, Robb never goes one-on-one with Jaime, and I think that was the original match-up in question.

@Bauchelain - You're absolutely right. I guess I was making the point that Ned vs. Jaime wouldn't be a foregone conclusion. It's true that Ned tells Bran that Reed saved his life. It's also true that Ned is exceedingly humble, and in the context of that conversation (where Bran was getting all starry-eyed about the notion that his father took Arthur Dayne on in single combat) I think it's possible what we're seeing is a little false modesty. Though I won't discount that based on other sources from other places in the text, Reed is almost certainly a more than able fighter, and possibly the only reason they won the battle at the Tower of Joy. Still, even with 7/3 odds, going up against Whent, Hightower, and Dayne and surviving - even if it's due to Reed's intervention - has got to be worth something.

Anyway, thread un-hijacked.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 20 April 2011 - 05:39 PM
Reason for edit: spoiler blocks removed. Books spoilers are allowed in this thread.

[Abyss]

No hijack - this thread is balls out for glory and no blocks needed. If it's hit the street, book or tv, it's open for discussion. OP and thread title both state as much.


I think it's fair to say that Ned was fairly badass in the day, but fighting Jaime in his two-handed prime may have been a stretch.


As for Robb v Jaime, as stated upthread, in the books they never fought. Jaime was gang-tackled when he tried to take Robb out personally and still almost got to him.

It was suggested more than once in the books that Robb had the potential to be a serious sword-fighter and even general, but there's also a strong sub-text to the whole King In The North thing that Robb was more carried along by events than ever actually took charge himself.

I actually curious to see which way they go with it in the tv series. Robb as heroic lead or Robb as more or less victim.

And then of course there's the Red Wedding, which was more or less brought about because Robb couldn't keep it in his pants.

[Ceda Cicero]

Abyss, on 20 April 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

...balls out... two-handed... a stretch... gang-tackled ... which way they go...couldn't keep it in his pants... a strong sub-text?

This post has been edited by Neocount Cicero: 20 April 2011 - 05:56 PM

[Cobbles]

As I wrote in another thread, I mostly liked the acting with a few exceptions.

I didn't think King Roberts monologue in the dungeon was delivered well. It felt studied, not heartfelt. I also thought that Viserys seemed more goofy than creepy. And Jamie's last line (the things I do...) was delivered a bit too offhand for my taste, but ok.

Finally, can someone explain the opening sequence? The gears and all look certainly cool, but what's the connection? It's not like gears and mechanical toys are of any relevance as far as I can remember. Am I missing something?

The visuals were great. I loved how distinct the places looked (and I remember the location on Malta. I've been there myself about 20 years ago.) It gave the place an authentic Mediterranean feeling. Kings Landing seemed modeled a bit after Lisbon. Winterfell looked a bit like a drab, generic castle and was maybe the least interesting visual.

[Cyphon]

Cobbles, on 21 April 2011 - 03:18 AM, said:

Finally, can someone explain the opening sequence? The gears and all look certainly cool, but what's the connection? It's not like gears and mechanical toys are of any relevance as far as I can remember. Am I missing something?

Plans within plans...

[Garak]

Quote

And then of course there's the Red Wedding, which was more or less brought about because Robb couldn't keep it in his pants.

As I recall it wasn't so much the fact that he couldn't keep it in his pants as it was the fact that he married that girl - when he was already supposed to marry one of Frey's daughters. Robb acted with honor but no brains (plus he bedded the girl of family loyal to Lannister).

This post has been edited by Garak: 21 April 2011 - 09:52 AM

[QuickTidal]

Cyphon, on 21 April 2011 - 09:38 AM, said:

Cobbles, on 21 April 2011 - 03:18 AM, said:

Finally, can someone explain the opening sequence? The gears and all look certainly cool, but what's the connection? It's not like gears and mechanical toys are of any relevance as far as I can remember. Am I missing something?

Plans within plans...

Indeed. Or machinations going on in the houses...

[Abyss]

I thought it was a reference to the cyborgs from book 5.

[Ceda Cicero]

Garak, on 21 April 2011 - 09:50 AM, said:

Quote

And then of course there's the Red Wedding, which was more or less brought about because Robb couldn't keep it in his pants.

As I recall it wasn't so much the fact that he couldn't keep it in his pants as it was the fact that he married that girl - when he was already supposed to marry one of Frey's daughters. Robb acted with honor but no brains (plus he bedded the girl of family loyal to Lannister).

Well yeah, but he married her because he bonked her and had the same unmitigated (arguably to a fault) sense of honor as Ned, which compelled him to make an "honest woman" out of her after sleeping with her despite the fact that it cost him a lot of political capital, and his life. So if we take the thing back to its genesis, yes, it was because he couldn't keep it in his pants.

And speaking of subtexts, perhaps I read into things a bit, but on my last read thru I filled a few things in between the lines that make this whole arc even more interesting/tragic. One could argue that Robb felt even more obligated to marry Jeyne (that was her name, right?) because he had Ned's example of fathering a bastard in Jon before his eyes. He saw the torment that this wrought for the people closest to him - the stain on his father's honor, the hurt carried by his mother, the isolation it forced on Jon - and because of this, maybe even just on a subconscious level, he couldn't live with the idea of fathering a bastard on Jeyne himself. And ultimately there's a level of dark irony, because Catelyn raised her kids in a culture where Jon's bastard heritage was a constant source of ire beneath the surface, but in the end she wants nothing more than to see him walk away from Jeyne for the sake of his kingdom, and (as it turns out) his life.

[Tyr]

Good points everyone.

The thread is now about Bronn.

Discuss.

[Abyss]

There was also the suggestion that some matron of Jeyne's minor House 'prompted' her into Robb's bed, figuring if he won the W5K (as he was doing at the time) then Jeyne would be Queen.

HBO is going to have a blast with this in S2 i suspect.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Actually it was implied Tywin Lannister urged Jeyne's mother to push her in Robb's bed knowing that Robb, being honorable like his father, would marry her and this way the alliance with the Freys would be dissolved. And then he could go to Lord Walder and Roose Bolton and start weaving his plan.

[QuickTidal]

Tyr, on 21 April 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

Good points everyone.

The thread is now about Bronn.

Discuss.

Okay, I'm just going to say it.

I never liked Bronn that much.

There, I said it.

Also, Hodor FTW!!

[Bauchelain the Evil]

QuickTidal, on 21 April 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

Tyr, on 21 April 2011 - 03:02 PM, said:

Good points everyone.

The thread is now about Bronn.

Discuss.

Okay, I'm just going to say it.

I never liked Bronn that much.

There, I said it.

Also, Hodor FTW!!

What!? Come on, how can't you like Bronn? Not thinking that he is the best swordsman since Arthur Dayne( as many fan seem to believe), I can understand, because I don't think that either, but not liking him?

[Traveller]

Cobbles, on 21 April 2011 - 03:18 AM, said:

As I wrote in another thread, I mostly liked the acting with a few exceptions.

I didn't think King Roberts monologue in the dungeon was delivered well. It felt studied, not heartfelt. I also thought that Viserys seemed more goofy than creepy. And Jamie's last line (the things I do...) was delivered a bit too offhand for my taste, but ok.

Finally, can someone explain the opening sequence? The gears and all look certainly cool, but what's the connection? It's not like gears and mechanical toys are of any relevance as far as I can remember. Am I missing something?

The visuals were great. I loved how distinct the places looked (and I remember the location on Malta. I've been there myself about 20 years ago.) It gave the place an authentic Mediterranean feeling. Kings Landing seemed modeled a bit after Lisbon. Winterfell looked a bit like a drab, generic castle and was maybe the least interesting visual.

My first impression was that it was supposed to look like a board game... and was there to give a tv version of the map at the start of the book. I might be wrong though. I liked it anyway.

I always saw Winterfell as being in a forest, surrounded by big old trees, but I guess strategically speaking that would be a terrible idea.

[Cobbles]

Traveller, on 21 April 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

My first impression was that it was supposed to look like a board game... and was there to give a tv version of the map at the start of the book. I might be wrong though. I liked it anyway.

Sounds like the most plausible explanation. I can see the board meeting: we need little figures ... kind of like chess pieces ... but animated. And then the graphic designer went completely overboard. Looks cool, though.