[jack d]

Long time lurker, finally just finished tCG and I had to post something.

First, if you read this SE, thank you isn't nearly enough for the time, the pleasure, the pain, the wonder of this saga. I'll be restarting it soon.

So, I have a load of questions, but will try to keep them to one per topic to make it easier on all.

To start: wasn't there some impending doom inside Dragnipur, a wall of fire or Chaos itself? What happened there?

Thanks to all who contribute so frequently here. Reading through everyone's thoughts has been invaluable as I try to make sense of mine.

[Defiance]

Anomander Rake used his soul to seal the gate to Mother Dark/Kurald Galain. Basically, as I understand it, the gate was a wound, and only Rake's soul was uber enough to be able to seal it and keep Chaos out. I assume that was KG was sealed, Chaos stopped going after the wagon as it no longer had a reason to (this makes sense, as if Chaos had kept going then Draconus and the other few that survived would have had to run from it for a few days before Brood broke the sword...not very epic. Plus if Chaos was still in there, it would have been released when the sword broke, I assume.

Other people probably have it worked out better. The great (and frustrating) thing about Erikson is that he's so vague. It gives a ton of room for people to interpret things how they want, but it can also make trying to figure things out difficult.

[jack d]

Defiance, on 15 April 2011 - 01:29 AM, said:

Anomander Rake used his soul to seal the gate to Mother Dark/Kurald Galain. Basically, as I understand it, the gate was a wound, and only Rake's soul was uber enough to be able to seal it and keep Chaos out. I assume that was KG was sealed, Chaos stopped going after the wagon as it no longer had a reason to (this makes sense, as if Chaos had kept going then Draconus and the other few that survived would have had to run from it for a few days before Brood broke the sword...not very epic. Plus if Chaos was still in there, it would have been released when the sword broke, I assume.

Other people probably have it worked out better. The great (and frustrating) thing about Erikson is that he's so vague. It gives a ton of room for people to interpret things how they want, but it can also make trying to figure things out difficult.

Ahh, ok. Definitely doesn't help that I've spread the readings out over many years. I really need to get back through it all in one pass. Thanks!

[End of Disc One]

And how did all of this bring Mother Dark back?

[Ceda Cicero]

End of Disc One, on 15 April 2011 - 02:45 AM, said:

And how did all of this bring Mother Dark back?

Presumably, if Draconus's reaction in TtH to realizing what Rake was doing was any indication, the complete and utter selflessness of Rake's choice to sacrifice himself for the Tiste Andii, Darkness and - we can assume - the world - forced her to reconsider her rejection of her son, and as such the Tiste Andii. It's probably more nuanced than that, but this is my general impression.

[Defiance]

I believe it's stated at some point that Dragnipur prevented Mother Dark from returning to her children. By sealing the wound, Rake offered her a way back, and she was (presumably) so moved by the sacrifice of her beloved son that she chose to not stay turned away. Here's a quote from TtH:

"Ah, my son...I accept."

In my opinion, Mother Dark gave up on the Tiste Andii. They gave up on themselves. Rake is the only one who didn't give up on both Mother Dark and the Tiste Andii, which made him unique. He still had faith, and through that faith he made a selfless sacrifice so moving that Mother Dark would no longer be able to stay turned away.

[nacht]

Quote

Since the time of Alll Darkness, I have been forging a sword.'
Both K'rul and Sister of Cold Nights turned at this, for they had known nothing of it.
Draconus continued. 'The forging has taken ... a long time, but I am now nearing completion. The power invested within within the sword possesses a ... a finality.'

Quote

The pattern sank down, through the heaped forms, even as the gate of Darkness rose up to meet it.
Wander no longer.
Anomander Rake, still standing, head tilted back, arms raised, began to dissolve, shred away, as the Gate took hold of him, as it fed upon him, upon the Son of Darkness. Upon what he desired, what he willed to be.
Witnessing this, Draconus sank down to his knees.
He finally understood what was happening. He finally understood what Anomander Rake had planned, all along – this, this wondrous thing.
Staring upward, he whispered, ‘You ask my forgiveness? When you unravel what I have done, what I did so long ago? When you heal that I wounded, when you mend what I broke?’ He raised his voice to a shout. ‘Rake! There is no forgiveness you must seek – not from me, gods below, not from ay of us!’
But there was no way to know if the had been heard. The man that had been Anomander Rake was scattered into the realm of Kural Galain, on to its own long-sealed path that might – just might – lead to the very feet of Mother Dark.

Who had turned away.
‘Mother Dark,’ Draconus whispered. ‘ Believe you must face him now. You must turn to your children. I believe your son insists. He demands it. Open your eyes, Mother Dark. See wht he has done! For you, for the Tiste Andii – but not for himself. See! See and know what he has done!’

Darkness awakened, the pattern grasping hold of the Gate itself, and sinking, sinking down, passing beyong Dragnipur, leaving for ever the dread sword –

Quote

And Nimander heard her whisper. ‘The Gate. How..oh, my dearest son.. oh, Anomander…’

Quote

And Nimander heard her say, ‘Ah, my son … Iaccept.’

The Gate of Darkness wandered no more. Was pursued no longer. The Gate of Darkness had found a new home, in the heart of Black Coral.

Quote

The ashes driftend down upon a still, silent scen. The legions of chaos were gone from Dragnipur, their quarry vanished. The wagon stood motionless, riven with fissures. Draconus looked round and he could see how few of the Chained were left. So many obliterated, devoured.

I hate to say this but I never really understood this either, but with some trepdiation, I am going to take a crack at it because I dont think SE will really explain this anymore.

Hypothesis follows ...

Mother Dark is what keeps chaos at bay. This is her job and this is what allows the universe to survive. Unfortunatelly after the dire happenings in Kharkanas (following her dalliance with Father Light) she lost interest in this.
Drconus create a hold (Dragnipur) in which he trapped mother dark and wounded her creating a Gate that Chaos pursued like crazy. This way Draconus was able to channel Chaos and prevent it from causing damage to the Universe.
Unfortunately MD was not a willing participant of this and Draconus needs a lot of souls to pull the wagon tied to the MD, away from Chaos.

This is the Draconus solution, but it requires souls to power the wagon.

Now, Anomander sacrifices himself to seal the wound hoping that this will spur MD to do her job again. MD accepts and Chaos no longer has any interest in staying in Dragnipur.

[Serebrus]

nacht, on 16 April 2011 - 01:40 AM, said:

Quote

Since the time of Alll Darkness, I have been forging a sword.'
Both K'rul and Sister of Cold Nights turned at this, for they had known nothing of it.
Draconus continued. 'The forging has taken ... a long time, but I am now nearing completion. The power invested within within the sword possesses a ... a finality.'

Quote

The pattern sank down, through the heaped forms, even as the gate of Darkness rose up to meet it.
Wander no longer.
Anomander Rake, still standing, head tilted back, arms raised, began to dissolve, shred away, as the Gate took hold of him, as it fed upon him, upon the Son of Darkness. Upon what he desired, what he willed to be.
Witnessing this, Draconus sank down to his knees.
He finally understood what was happening. He finally understood what Anomander Rake had planned, all along – this, this wondrous thing.
Staring upward, he whispered, 'You ask my forgiveness? When you unravel what I have done, what I did so long ago? When you heal that I wounded, when you mend what I broke?' He raised his voice to a shout. 'Rake! There is no forgiveness you must seek – not from me, gods below, not from ay of us!'
But there was no way to know if the had been heard. The man that had been Anomander Rake was scattered into the realm of Kural Galain, on to its own long-sealed path that might – just might – lead to the very feet of Mother Dark.

Who had turned away.
'Mother Dark,' Draconus whispered. ' Believe you must face him now. You must turn to your children. I believe your son insists. He demands it. Open your eyes, Mother Dark. See wht he has done! For you, for the Tiste Andii – but not for himself. See! See and know what he has done!'

Darkness awakened, the pattern grasping hold of the Gate itself, and sinking, sinking down, passing beyong Dragnipur, leaving for ever the dread sword –

Quote

And Nimander heard her whisper. 'The Gate. How..oh, my dearest son.. oh, Anomander…'

Quote

And Nimander heard her say, 'Ah, my son … Iaccept.'

The Gate of Darkness wandered no more. Was pursued no longer. The Gate of Darkness had found a new home, in the heart of Black Coral.

Quote

The ashes driftend down upon a still, silent scen. The legions of chaos were gone from Dragnipur, their quarry vanished. The wagon stood motionless, riven with fissures. Draconus looked round and he could see how few of the Chained were left. So many obliterated, devoured.

I hate to say this but I never really understood this either, but with some trepdiation, I am going to take a crack at it because I dont think SE will really explain this anymore.

Hypothesis follows ...

Mother Dark is what keeps chaos at bay. This is her job and this is what allows the universe to survive. Unfortunatelly after the dire happenings in Kharkanas (following her dalliance with Father Light) she lost interest in this.
Drconus create a hold (Dragnipur) in which he trapped mother dark and wounded her creating a Gate that Chaos pursued like crazy. This way Draconus was able to channel Chaos and prevent it from causing damage to the Universe.
Unfortunately MD was not a willing participant of this and Draconus needs a lot of souls to pull the wagon tied to the MD, away from Chaos.

This is the Draconus solution, but it requires souls to power the wagon.

Now, Anomander sacrifices himself to seal the wound hoping that this will spur MD to do her job again. MD accepts and Chaos no longer has any interest in staying in Dragnipur.

It makes sense in a way. I'm not so sure about MD being Wu's defender from Chaos. I think that part had more to do with Kaminsod's need for revenge upon all who had been part of his chaining. Inside of Dragnipur was a gate to KG so Chaos pursued it in hopes of entering that realm. Thats my opinion.

I am still perplexed as to exactly why Draconus forged Dragnipur and I really hope this is touched on in SE's Kharkanas series.

[worry]

He forged it to create one front in the war on order waged by Chaos....his motives might have been personal re: his ex-gf, or he might have been concerned with preserving all existence. MD is definitely Chaos's foremost enemy, if she in fact is the source of order. But I never got the impression that MD was trapped or otherwise residing inside Dragnipur, the wagon just held the gate to Darkness and therefore the path to her. I suppose if she's consumed, all order would dissipate.

I don't think any of this has much to do with Kaminsod.

[POOPOO MCBUMFACE]

Serebrus, on 17 April 2011 - 08:41 PM, said:

I am still perplexed as to exactly why Draconus forged Dragnipur and I really hope this is touched on in SE's Kharkanas series.

Yes, this puzzles me. Some of the characters - maybe even Draconus himself - comment every now and again that Dragnipur was a "crude" answer to a problem that nonetheless needed addressed. What would have happened without its forging? The gate to Kurald Galain/Mother Dark was in Kharkanas, I think - would Chaos just have made a beeline for there? What other options were there? Why this rather convoluted solution involving a giant wagon dragged by dead souls? Does that mean Draconus somehow knew MD was going to turn away, since I'd assume Chaos wasted no time in pursuing the gate when she did? What would actually have happened when it reached the gate?

Kharkhanas trilogy has a lot of explaining to do... or at least hint at!

[Sinisdar Toste]

i think worrywort has a good point when she says that draconus made dragnipur as a single front for a war that should rightly cover all of existence. as he points out in TtH, Draconus didn't understand how darkness had its own defenses against chaos.

imo, the result of chaos entering the gate of darkness would be the end of existence as a structured, orderly system, putting it back into the state described by k'rul in MoI when he gives envy the vision of him creating the warrens. chaos and terror, a formless void and impersonal elemental forces

[acesn8s]

I was wondering if having the gate to KG in Dragnipur also kept the TL from trying to invade Kharkanas.

[RSM616]

in my understanding dragnipur was created to protect the gate of darkness while mother dark was turned away and also to protect wu as its said that the kchain put a curse or something that baisicly ment that when mother dark was destroyed so would everything else. So draconus used the sword to protect MD and also trap chaos. However when mother dark returned chaos lost the think it was hunting and as it no longer stood a chancenof getting MD it dissapated from the relm