[GarrickW]

Quick question I'm sure someone can clear up quickly, but I've been googling and I haven't wrapped my head around it yet. So I'm reading through DoD, and something's been bugging me for a while now. Back in Reaper's Gale (I think), didn't somebody come across a massive pile of corpses that turned out to be the Grey Swords? Aren't the Perish Grey Helms the same people who used to be the Grey Swords, but ditched their old Fener worship and started following the Wolves? What's the relationship between the two groups, and if they're not the related, what were the Grey Swords doing on Lether?

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

They are indeed different military companies that conveniently annoyingly have very similar names. The Grey Helms are from Perish and tagged along with the Bonehunters. The Grey Swords were from southern Genabackis and if I recall correctly, followed the Barghast to Lether, under the command of Toc Anaster, following the Pannion War.

[caladanbrood]

The Grey Swords are the group that first turned up in Memories of Ice, defending Capustan - they then came to Lether following Tool and the Barghast. In Capustan they were worshippers of Fener, and then switched to the Wolves after the death of Itkovian, Brukhalian and the other guy.

The Grey Helms (Perish) joined up with the Bonehunters en-route between Seven Cities and Lether. They've always worshipped the wolves. They had a similar set up, with Mortal Sword, Shield Anvil and Destrient just because that's the general religious set-up, I think, not because of any prior connection.

This post has been edited by caladanbrood: 05 April 2011 - 02:05 PM

[D'rek]

There definitely does seem to be some connection between the people. They look the same, talk the same, worship gods of war, etc etc. The Grey Helms have a whole little nation of Perish, but the Grey Swords are only from the city of Elingarth. It could very well be that Elingarth is some sort of colony of the Perish, or was influenced (a lot) by Perish traders, or a sect of the Perish that decided to abandon the Wolves to worship Fener instead, etc etc. There's a lot of possibilities. If you like the timeline, though, then it is hard to believe they are connected as a single people, as the Perish seem to have always worshipped the Wolves, while for the Grey Swords it was a very recent switch from Fener.

Stonewielder minor spoilers:

Spoiler

Elingarth is supposedly the only city of any particular worth on the south-east end of Genebackis, but also impregnable, so it has a strong military which is probably related to the Grey Swords.

Furthermore, there is a character who first says she is from Elingarth, but then says she is from Perish.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 05 April 2011 - 02:19 PM

[MTS]

D, on 05 April 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

There definitely does seem to be some connection between the people. They look the same, talk the same, worship gods of war, etc etc. The Grey Helms have a whole little nation of Perish, but the Grey Swords are only from the city of Elingarth. It could very well be that Elingarth is some sort of colony of the Perish, or was influenced (a lot) by Perish traders, or a sect of the Perish that decided to abandon the Wolves to worship Fener instead, etc etc. There's a lot of possibilities. If you like the timeline, though, then it is hard to believe they are connected as a single people, as the Perish seem to have always worshipped the Wolves, while for the Grey Swords it was a very recent switch from Fener.

Stonewielder minor spoilers:

Spoiler

Elingarth is supposedly the only city of any particular worth on the south-east end of Genebackis, but also impregnable, so it has a strong military which is probably related to the Grey Swords.

Furthermore, there is a character who first says she is from Elingarth, but then says she is from Perish.

Spoiler

Peles never actually says she's from Elingarth. Here's the actual exchange:

Quote

‘You are of Elingarth?’ he asked finally.
The broad-boned woman almost blushed. ‘Around there,’ she muttered into her plate.

Still, there's some connection between the two. Both are known as military chapters, 'chapters' suggesting there is more than one, and that they are not lone entities. Quick comes to the same conclusion in BH:

Quote

‘Grey Helms, Swords... gods below, Kalam – I need to talk to Tavore.’

One can suspect there are others out there from that passage...Grey Shields maybe? Anyway, the worship of different gods of war could be representative of different chapters honouring different gods of war (we already know there are others - Trake (recent) and that bear in TTH (ancient)), or perhaps simply a cultural difference.

I'm a bit confused though. Does the entire nation of Perish comprise the Grey Helms as its military arm? I was under the impression it didn't.

[caladanbrood]

MTS, on 05 April 2011 - 02:46 PM, said:

I'm a bit confused though. Does the entire nation of Perish comprise the Grey Helms as its military arm? I was under the impression it didn't.

I don't think so. But since they're the only Perish that anyone in Malaz has encountered, that's why they are referred to so often as "the Perish", I guess.

[snake0026]

Quote

'Shield Anvil, prepare to embrace all who may come to fall this day. That is your task, your responsibility. If you so cherish the gleam of politics then you should have stayed in the kingdom shores of Perish. We who are here refused those games. We left our homes, our places of birth. We left our families and our loved ones. We left the intrigue and the deceit and the court dances of death.'

DoD, TPB, pg 821

Here, Krughava refers to the lands of Perish as consisting of at least a single kingdom, distinct and seperate from the Grey Helms, who are no doubt simply a merecenary company (albeit a highly respected one). I also seem to recall it being mentioned somewhere that there were actually multiple kingdoms present in the lands of the Perish, though can't seem to find the quote atm.

Likewise with Elingarth, I was under the impression that the Grey Swords were merely one of many mercenary groups that were based out of the city.

[Abyss]

Another key point is that Togg and Fanderay are two diferent gods, both worshipped by the Perish/Grey Helms and the Grey Swords from Elingarth. Since, in theory, any god can choose to have its own MS/D/SA (in theory they could have as many as they want but that's an aside), Togg and Fandery together can double up, hence, TWO sets of MS/D/SA in two separate but similar warrior cults.

And just for kicks, when we meet the Helms in TB, their MS/D/SA genders are the inverse of what the Grey Swords' MS/D/SA are as of the end of MoI.