[Mirthmonkey]

First off, I checked the forum because I just finished the book and had no idea why Cotillion assassinated the Crippled God at the end. I see most people interpreted that as a necessary step to free the god's soul to rejoin his followers. hurm... I suppose. I wish Erikson had made that more clear. That's been the most difficult thing about following the entire series. Right up to the end, Erikson is so often unclear about why something happens. I was hoping it would all be explained pretty well by the end of the series.

What struck me about the Crippled God in this final volume though was what seems like a sudden and huge personality change. In the previous books he seemed to be the closest thing to pure evil that this series has. It's his hand behind many horrendous plots such as the Letherii ruler (Rhulad? something like that) who's forever getting resurrected until Karsa kills him for good. Yet in this final volume the Crippled God is suddenly a sympathetic character and Tavore and others are working to free him. What happened? What changed? Why is this god now worth fighting for?

For that matter, as the whole thing seems to have been orchestrated by Shadowthrone and Cotillion... what was their end goal? Did they somehow know or guess what the elder god would do in an attempt to wipe out the warrens by using the otataral dragon? Was all of it to find a way to stop the dragon from destroying the magic of the warrens?

This post has been edited by Mirthmonkey: 29 March 2011 - 11:50 PM

[worry]

The Crippled God's original worshipers were finally very close to the planet, so I think that had something to do with it. Along with the contact/deal with the gods trying to save him. And of course the sacrifice of the marines and heavies. But it's not just that last thing, which alone would indeed seem kinda sudden and cheesy. A lot of things came together in order to ease the Crippled God's pain, give him hope for a life outside of agony, and of course return him to sanity. Remember he's not just a sadist, he has been driven insane. Why he's worth fighting for, so to speak, has been covered in a few threads but it includes compassion, righting an ancient injustice, ridding Burn of a poison, and I can't remember what else right now.

ST, Cotillion, Hood, Rake, Fener, and Tavore -- among others -- did have the basic plan for this all to be carried out. Their end goal, besides all of the above, was to deprive the more tyranty EGs and young gods from tapping the CG as a power source. Not sure I could relate a solid cause-effect chain for the series -- someone else might be able to -- but the CG was making his own final gambit, which in turn was pushing some gods, ascendants, and even mortals to make gambits of their own to capture CG's power.

I think it would also be a mistake to leave out the ever-mysterious Azath and the Master of the Deck from what's going on. Ganoes seemed to be working fairly independently of ST/Cots/etc. and I'm honestly not sure what kind of power/influence he had over events ultimately, but I'm willing to bet that his personal understanding of the CG's ordeal and motivations was a force to be reckoned with no matter the motives of everyone else. Neither Ganoes nor Tavore were pawns in this story, and that's important too (as Karsa could explain more succinctly than I).

This post has been edited by worrywort: 30 March 2011 - 12:23 AM

[Defiance]

I don't think ST and Cotillion have reached their end goal. From what I can remember of either their last or second-to-last conversation, they plan on removing most, if not all of the gods from the pantheon.

TCG was never evil, although SE cleverly made it look like he was. There's a few things you've got to realize about him

1) He's spent a very long time in constant pain (100,000 years or so)
2) No one has ever shown him any form of compassion before, especially the gods. He was sorely abused by them, thus furthering his hatred. Even among his worshippers (Bidithal in HoC, all of the people at the temple in TtH), nobody showed him compassion. People always just wanted something from him.
3) All of his moves in the series were, I believe as Quick Ben said in Dust of Dreams, defensive. Most if not all of these moves were foiled, but I believe TCG was trying to defend himself against the gods. I believe he predicted that a giant convergence was coming, and so he did his best to protect himself despite being chained.

[worry]

Well I wouldn't say he was never evil, but I think everyone already had that conversation in that thread about Kallor a while back.

[Defiance]

*shrug* Of course, it's all from a person's standpoint. Do we blame the gods that chained TCG for all of the terrible things he did, or do we blame TCG himself? Is he responsible for his emotions despite all of the pain he was in, a pain and hatred that wouldn't have arisen without mistreatment from the gods?

I don't think TCG was ever evil. That said, he did do some evil things.

[worry]

I blame everyone for everything.

[edgewalker81]

Fener was in on this? B/c...it didn't work out too well for him....

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Fener was finished the moment Heboric pulled him down. In RG he tells the Errant that a last battle awaits him,one he will not survive . In TCG K'rul tells Kaminsod that Fener's blood regave life to a lifeless land and that he considered it a fair exchange.

[Bulwyf]

Defiance, on 30 March 2011 - 01:30 AM, said:

*shrug* Of course, it's all from a person's standpoint. Do we blame the gods that chained TCG for all of the terrible things he did, or do we blame TCG himself? Is he responsible for his emotions despite all of the pain he was in, a pain and hatred that wouldn't have arisen without mistreatment from the gods?

I don't think TCG was ever evil. That said, he did do some evil things.

I'm not looking for a debate or anything, but it's the classic cycle of abuse. (/thinks of "Prison Sex" by Tool)
Is a child molestor any less wrong/evil if he/she is doing it because they were molested as a child? It may seem a little more sad, but it's still wrong/evil.

The CG was abducted, tormented, chained, used. After a while (hundreds <??thousands??> of years) it was all he saw from anyone and became all he knew. Who knows what kind of god he was back in his own realm, but he was affected by the treatment towards him, and started treating others the same. He may have poisoned Burn/warrens to defend himself from the other gods, or to destroy this world and maybe free himself, but he was malicious towards others as well. Rhulad, and that artisan who made the cards for him: He cured his cancer in payment for his services, then crippled him in spite, "in his image." "Do unto others, what has been done to you." -above mentioned song

By the last book, it did apear that "the fog was lifting," that he was coming out of his tormented haze. Seeing mortals actually helping him. It was like he had forgetten that was a possibility. He was coming out of his funk with the kindness being shown to him.

[Pig Iron]

His character probably changed radically when he got his body more or less reassembled. This way of looking at it goes well together with whats happening in Stonewielder.

[Mirthmonkey]

So who initially decided that despite the malicious acts of TCG, despite his poisoning of Burn and the warrens, what had to be done was to help him, to free him? Was it Shadowthrone and Cotillion that figured out what had to be done? Or perhaps Quick Ben? Near the end I think it's Kalam who ruefully notes that Ben will take credit for it himself. Either way, someone hatched the plan and filled in the others... ST, Cot, Tavore, Quick Ben, Kalam... we're never told.

And how did they know what the elder god who unleashed teh otataral (sp?) dragon was going to do? That dragon was integral to the plan. They had to have known it would happen.

[Sinisdar Toste]

I think ST/Cot originally started shopping "The Plan" (cuz apparently it was always the same thing) around because they saw it as a way to secure their rule of shadow. tCG just made the game to unpredictable so they wanted him gone. or maybe anomander rake sat and thought about it for 300 years at one point or something. the point is not in knowing who came up with the damn thing, it's in seeing how all the separate parts and players came together to achieve success.

[worry]

Do you think Caladan Brood and QoD were aware of the plan? She must have been, and CB didn't seem surprised by Rake's death, really. Hopefully ICE explores their reactions to Rake's death a little more, as well as Osserc's. SW didn't have enough (any?) Rake-death ripple effect, IMO, but the Darujhistan novel certainly has more opportunity for that.

[edgewalker81]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 30 March 2011 - 01:26 PM, said:

Fener was finished the moment Heboric pulled him down. In RG he tells the Errant that a last battle awaits him,one he will not survive . In TCG K'rul tells Kaminsod that Fener's blood regave life to a lifeless land and that he considered it a fair exchange.

Ah, thank you, sir. So much to remember!

[Black Company]

Doesn't tCG point to Tavore being the driving force behind Kam being freed? There are a few times when Tavore humbles the gods, both with her nobility and her compassion. To the gods of the Plan, it works the same if they kill Kam as if they free him. There is that conversation between Banaschar and Tavore (or the captains?) where he says that to D'rek, it doesn't matter if they free him or kill him as long as he's gone. For ST and Cot, who at first are trying to cement their place in the pantheon, the basis of the plan is to take away Kam as a source of almost never ending power to whoever taps into him. Dead works the same as gone. I like to think that it was Tavore who asked, "why not set him free?" Not literally, but worked out the same. And yes, Cot does plant a couple daggers into Kam's back at the end to "kill" him but that was the final step in sending him back to his people as opposed to destroying the Heart or whatever they could've done to end Kam.

[Rysto]

Black Company, on 04 April 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

Doesn't tCG point to Tavore being the driving force behind Kam being freed?

In some ways, but Tavore was also revealed to be a Talon, which would seem to imply that she's been working for ST the whole time. On the other hand, in that scene between ST and Ganoes ST seems to have no insight into Tavore's motivations.

[Captain Beardface]

Rysto, on 05 April 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

Black Company, on 04 April 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

Doesn't tCG point to Tavore being the driving force behind Kam being freed?

In some ways, but Tavore was also revealed to be a Talon, which would seem to imply that she's been working for ST the whole time. On the other hand, in that scene between ST and Ganoes ST seems to have no insight into Tavore's motivations.

That's cause the Talon where wholly Dancer/Cotillion creation meaning that ST might not know who where in the Talon and what they where up to.

[Ceda Cicero]

MuttonChops, on 05 April 2011 - 01:45 AM, said:

Rysto, on 05 April 2011 - 01:21 AM, said:

Black Company, on 04 April 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

Doesn't tCG point to Tavore being the driving force behind Kam being freed?

In some ways, but Tavore was also revealed to be a Talon, which would seem to imply that she's been working for ST the whole time. On the other hand, in that scene between ST and Ganoes ST seems to have no insight into Tavore's motivations.

That's cause the Talon where wholly Dancer/Cotillion creation meaning that ST might not know who where in the Talon and what they where up to.

It's not that ST has no insight into Tavore's motivations. I read that scene as ST having no insight into Tavore's fate and whereabouts. He can't see anything that close to the outskirts of the Glass Desert. Presumably he knows the Bonehunters ran into the KCNR (since Cotillion intervened) but since then doesn't know whether or not he should have faith that Tavore is "still out there" and going to keep going.