[Votan]

What do you think the status of Kallor's curse is now, in regards to K'rul? Is it still in effect? Do you think K'rul can ever regain his lost prominence?

I wonder because, while K'rul is a still basically a weakened guy huddled around a fire (shades of the the CG, btw) he isn't exactly forgotten or gone. Thoughts?

[Ceda Cicero]

 Votan, on 23 March 2011 - 05:36 PM, said:

What do you think the status of Kallor's curse is now, in regards to K'rul? Is it still in effect? Do you think K'rul can ever regain his lost prominence?

I wonder because, while K'rul is a still basically a weakened guy huddled around a fire (shades of the the CG, btw) he isn't exactly forgotten or gone. Thoughts?

Draconus's freedom from Dragnipur sets an interesting precedent for Kallor's curse. I believe it's Mael who says, in DoD, that "Draconus has broken Kallor's curse upon him." If Draconus can do it, would seem possible that K'rul could too. Which would raise still more questions about the longevity of THEIR curse on KALLOR. He obviously thinks he can break this, as he's seeking the Throne of HH Chains in TtH, which (ambiguity of ascendancy aside) would to my mind lead to some sort of ascension, thus breaking a part of their curse.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I'd say that kallor's curse on K'rul was broken the moment blood was spilled in his temple and he returned from the Realms of Chaos.

[KallorsUnusedMoisturiser]

I was thinking about this too. The problem is that the three curses Kallor spouts out have a certain finality to them, they have a definite conclusion. K'rul will fade out and be forgotten - he's back in play now after GotM. Nightchill will be betrayed and torn to pieces on the field of battle - that happened with authori-tah. She has since been back co-habiting Silverfox. As far as i can remember it was said in MoI that she had a dominant personality and could take over at any time. She certainly has a not-so-pleasant conversation with Paran. Draconus would be defeated by that which he creates (did i get that one right?), and he's back going all Hulk-smash on anything that moves unless it has a big mace and a big penis.

Conversely, the curses used by the EGs don't really have an end-point. All you do will always come crashing down around you. You will never ascend. And one more which escapes me.

What a disappointing way to end a post. Oh well.

This post has been edited by KallorsUnusedMoisturiser: 23 March 2011 - 05:51 PM

[Aptorian]

The Elder Gods live off blood. It is the source of their power. Unless the world descends into barbarism once more (which it of course will eventually,but not right now) then K'rul has no hope of reclaiming his old status and power, and I don't think he even wants it. He's changed into some kind of Dream God and of course there is his connection with the Houses.

[amphibian]

 Clockwork Apt, on 23 March 2011 - 07:07 PM, said:

The Elder Gods live off blood. It is the source of their power. Unless the world descends into barbarism once more (which it of course will eventually,but not right now) then K'rul has no hope of reclaiming his old status and power, and I don't think he even wants it. He's changed into some kind of Dream God and of course there is his connection with the Houses.

You mean the warrens, Apt. The Elder Gods gain power from both worship/belief and blood.

The Bridgeburner tavern in Darujhistan is the old temple of K'rul. The assassins' blood from the melee there, the innocent civilian blood and the blood of the Bridgeburners who died there have all increased his power considerably. That scene was probably the reason why K'rul could go to the bottom of the sea and work with Mael and Heboric.

Plus there's whatever happens in the ICE Darujhistan book. I'm sure that that tavern and those characters will figure in it somehow.

[Aptorian]

I thought it was implied in TCG that with worship came bloodsacrifice, which is what the Errant was hungering for. From what I understood of it, worship meant fuck all to the Elder Gods, it was the power that came with the blood that they used to grow strong. This also makes sense in the relationship the EGs had to mortals. They don't care about them, they are just blood donors, their lives are insignificant.

This also makes sense in relation to Mael being one of the last, if not the last, strong EG. The Sea is his realm and there is no shortage of people dying on the sea or making sacrifices in his name along its shores even though he long ago turned his back on his cult(s).

[amphibian]

 Clockwork Apt, on 23 March 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

I thought it was implied in TCG that with worship came bloodsacrifice, which is what the Errant was hungering for. From what I understood of it, worship meant fuck all to the Elder Gods, it was the power that came with the blood that they used to grow strong. This also makes sense in the relationship the EGs had to mortals. They don't care about them, they are just blood donors, their lives are insignificant.

This also makes sense in relation to Mael being one of the last, if not the last, strong EG. The Sea is his realm and there is no shortage of people dying on the sea or making sacrifices in his name along its shores even though he long ago turned his back on his cult(s).

My conception of the blood is that it's like a piping hot mug of cocoa on a cold winter's day. There's still the heat from the building (non-blood based worship), but it doesn't feel as good or warm as the cocoa. Cocoa all the time would make you a plump, jolly person and having that cocoa supply dry up after becoming addicted to it would probably leave you a one-eyed a-hole that nobody likes and Draconus might be on your tail...

The Errant mentioned reveling in the blood, not necessarily needing it. Mael did have a shortage of worshipers. It's how Mallick had such influence in the early going and once Mael's numbers of worshipers increased (which was also tied in with the rise of Tehol over in Letheras) and the blood started coming from other sources, Mael was able to free himself wholly from Mallick's clutches.

Edit/One random thing: Draconus is mentioned as an Elder God in MoI, but may not actually be as such. He retained his dragonfucknuts power despite being dead and inside Dragnipur for millennia. Worship or blood may not have all that much to do with power levels for specific gods or ascendants. My head hurts

This post has been edited by amphibian: 23 March 2011 - 10:26 PM

[Mentalist]

 amphibian, on 23 March 2011 - 10:23 PM, said:

 Clockwork Apt, on 23 March 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

I thought it was implied in TCG that with worship came bloodsacrifice, which is what the Errant was hungering for. From what I understood of it, worship meant fuck all to the Elder Gods, it was the power that came with the blood that they used to grow strong. This also makes sense in the relationship the EGs had to mortals. They don't care about them, they are just blood donors, their lives are insignificant.

This also makes sense in relation to Mael being one of the last, if not the last, strong EG. The Sea is his realm and there is no shortage of people dying on the sea or making sacrifices in his name along its shores even though he long ago turned his back on his cult(s).

My conception of the blood is that it's like a piping hot mug of cocoa on a cold winter's day. There's still the heat from the building (non-blood based worship), but it doesn't feel as good or warm as the cocoa. Cocoa all the time would make you a plump, jolly person and having that cocoa supply dry up after becoming addicted to it would probably leave you a one-eyed a-hole that nobody likes and Draconus might be on your tail...

The Errant mentioned reveling in the blood, not necessarily needing it. Mael did have a shortage of worshipers. It's how Mallick had such influence in the early going and once Mael's numbers of worshipers increased (which was also tied in with the rise of Tehol over in Letheras) and the blood started coming from other sources, Mael was able to free himself wholly from Mallick's clutches.

Edit/One random thing: Draconus is mentioned as an Elder God in MoI, but may not actually be as such. He retained his dragonfucknuts power despite being dead and inside Dragnipur for millennia. Worship or blood may not have all that much to do with power levels for specific gods or ascendants. My head hurts

Actually, Mael did not need blood. in RotCG, the scene where he disowns Rel actually shows that the people of Quon Tali were back to making offerings to the water of flowers or somethign like that (not blood related).
it is the feeling/belief associated with worship that gives the gods power. their grip on their own humanity binds them to obeying the will of the worshippers.

[Votan]

 Clockwork Apt, on 23 March 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

This also makes sense in relation to Mael being one of the last, if not the last, strong EG.

What about Draconus, though? Nobody is worshipping or sacrificing for him on a regular basis, and he's still practically the strongest guy around.

[Midnight]

Draconus' power could be so great because it is concentrated at the individual level. In tBH the Eres is shown as being more efficacious than Mael because she chooses to remain in one form while his power is spread across the seas. Thus, she's able to drive Tavore's fleet (I think) even against Mael's will.

Perhaps, in a similar fashion, Draconus can deliver mayhem on a personal level but his efficacy might be limited on a larger level.

And of course, his sword is a manifestation of Mother Dark who seems to have retained her power as well.

[Tatterdemalion]

Additionally, maybe his temple was Dragnipur and all the bitches that be smote charged him up something fierce - only not much you can do while chained and hauling bodies (a pretty big sign of strength in itself which only faultered when Anomander got peaceful) - but then when you break free you arrive like the frozen corpses of two armies splattering into the ground (aka, the best way ever in one of my favourite scenes in any book).

Also: Maybe K'rul's lack of power stems from his tie to the curse of Kallor. He is fated to fade, so blood sacrifices go with this. A few pop in here and there. Meanwhile, Draconus is not fated to fade and thus retains his original power as SotCN would have had she not been 'Tayschrenn'd' or whatever the hell happened there in GotM.

[Studlock]

I always thought Draconus was the Elder God of Night so just like Mael (with the oceans and other bodies of water) he could simply being getting all the blood sacrific from all the things that died in the night (which would be a fuckton) which would explain why is uber-Elder God who can just fly around and kill other Elder Gods like it aint no thang. Of course I have no evidence for this.

[D'iversify]

 Votan, on 24 March 2011 - 06:11 AM, said:

 Clockwork Apt, on 23 March 2011 - 09:38 PM, said:

This also makes sense in relation to Mael being one of the last, if not the last, strong EG.

What about Draconus, though? Nobody is worshipping or sacrificing for him on a regular basis, and he's still practically the strongest guy around.

He has human followers, which is highlighted in RotCG.

 Studlock, on 24 March 2011 - 06:11 AM, said:

I always thought Draconus was the Elder God of Night so just like Mael (with the oceans and other bodies of water) he could simply being getting all the blood sacrific from all the things that died in the night (which would be a fuckton) which would explain why is uber-Elder God who can just fly around and kill other Elder Gods like it aint no thang. Of course I have no evidence for this.

I've always thought of Elder Night as referring to the primordial darkness and cold of space prior to Wu's coming into being. Which is what makes it Elder as opposed to just Night.

[Punchy Pete]

Back to Kallor's curse... Draconus broke it by fulfilling it.... he fell to the weapon he created, Dragnipur, but he was freed. Curse complete. K'Rul's was an open-ended one, with no definite end, other than "fade to black"...

As for Kallor, he has hope... that's what makes the curse so painful! Good on him, because I really don't like him. Especially after he killed WJ.