[Magus Rune]

After the Nimander story line is wrapping up, Korlat is given the title "Sister of Night", and then there after is named "Sister of COLD Nights". Which I'm sure we're all aware is a pseudonym for the elder goddess Nightchill.



Was this just a typo? Or did something else happen in that which I completely missed?

[Ceda Cicero]

Magus Rune, on 23 March 2011 - 02:11 PM, said:

After the Nimander story line is wrapping up, Korlat is given the title "Sister of Night", and then there after is named "Sister of COLD Nights". Which I'm sure we're all aware is a pseudonym for the elder goddess Nightchill.



Was this just a typo? Or did something else happen in that which I completely missed?

I think for any truly thorough explanation or insight we're going to have to wait until we get the Andii trilogy, however, my feeling is that it's neither a typo nor are they distinct titles. To me it seems like the best assumption is that "Sister of Night" and "Sister of Cold Nights" are variation titles for the same position. If it's helpful (though it's not entirely comparable) think Purake/Dragnipurake (I guess that's more a translation thing, but still, loosely comparable.)

As to the significance of the role, and the implications all of this has for our understanding of the "original" Sister of Cold Nights/Nightchill, again, we'll just have to wait.

[Gothos]

It would seem like the Sister of Cold Nights is some sort of envoy from the Andii to the First Shore... though why Nightchill spent her time meddling in mortal affairs in the physical realm remains a mystery. She's also described as an Elder God, not a Tiste Andii... though the two terms might not be mutually exclusive.
Perhaps it's an envoy OF the First Shore to the outside world, a link representing them in other places when the rest of them is stuck watching Lightfall. After all, Korlat clearly can leave the Shore.
Maybe a recruiter of sorts? Advertiser? Champion seeker? Kharkanas Trilogy will probably say.

[D'rek]

At first she takes the title "Sister of Night(s)" but near the end of the novel I believe there's at least one reference to her as "Sister of Cold Night(s)", so they appear to be the same thing. I would guess that Nightchill (the EG) was perhaps the first SoCN, but there is a distinction between the position and the person holding it.

[miriya]

Yeah, this is a complete mystery to me too, and when bumped around on the board it seems that the general consensus is that it's the same title, but ... I need proof before I can wrap my mind around it. The first and maybe second time around, they just referred to the title of 'Sister of Nights', and the addition of 'cold' showed up later, which is kind of weird. Why, when presenting the title for the first time, would they not use the full title? It's not even a pleasant addition -- I mean, if one had to pick what kind of night they'd be a sister too, I think they'd definitely swing more towards 'balmy' than 'cold'. And why then was Nightchill never refered to as anything less than Sister of Cold Nights? Wasn't Nightchill the goddess' name? Her landing in a spot that just happened to come with a title that's just a variation of her name (and the addition of 'sister' is a pretty happy coincidence, if she was, y'know, into that sort of thing. And Nightchill was along, as Sister of Cold Nights, quite a while before the Andii came traipsing out of KG right? I suppose she could have been hanging out in Kharkanas at some point to earn the admiration of the Shake, but eeeh, that's something we can only speculate on.

Most importantly, though, if she's some important Andii envoy/special person to the Shake (who seem to be a multi-limbed meatshield for the Andii), why would she be taking the field against the Andii (or at least against Rake, who is Jesus Andii) as a Malazan at the siege of Pale? Yes, it was technically against the city, but Mr. Boss Andii made a pretty obvious show of having the city under his protection.

(In searching, random factoid! In DG (at least my ebook version), Kallor is listed as an ascendant. Haha.)

And now that I look back in MoI, there's some interesting passages that don't tell us anything, but hint pretty strongly at just about anything, too. Somehow I got it turned around, and thought the chaining of TCG came after Kallor went all annihilate! on his empire. I was wrong. Draconis is familiar enough with MD (hehe) that it's totally plausible that Nightchill would be, too. But anyway, those passages I was talking about. Both early in MoI, where K'rul, Draconis and Nightchill go to give him a slap on the wrist, or a curse of miserable life unending, whatev.

Quote

His grey eyes swung to the third Elder. 'And you. My dear, I was under the impression that you had abandoned your ... old self. Walking among the mortals, playing the role of middling sorceress – such a deadly risk, though perhaps this is what entices you so to the mortal game. You've stood on fields of battles, woman. One stray arrow ...' He slowly shook his head.

Quote

She shrugged. 'I shall endeavour to guard myself. When my destruction comes, it will be through betrayal and naught else. There can be no precaution against such a thing, lest my life become its own nightmare of suspicion and mistrust. To this, I shall not surrender. Until that moment, I shall continue to play the mortal game.'
'Careful, then,' K'rul murmured, 'whom you choose to fight for.'

So yeah, here I am undermining my own evidence to the contrary (though there's nothing really to prove things either way), hi.

I think this is going to be a question for SE. He'll possibly/probably address it in the Kharkanas trilogy, but I'd ask him anyway given an opportunity.

This post has been edited by miriya: 23 March 2011 - 03:36 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

miriya, on 23 March 2011 - 03:29 PM, said:

Yeah, this is a complete mystery to me too, and when bumped around on the board it seems that the general consensus is that it's a title, but ... I need proof before I can wrap my mind around it. The first and maybe second time around, they just referred to the title of 'Sister of nights', and the addition of 'cold' showed up later, also -- wasn't Nightchill the goddess' name? Her landing in a spot that just happened to come with a title that's just a variation of her name (and the addition of 'sister' is a pretty happy coincidence, if she was, y'know, into that sort of thing. And Nightchill was along, as Sister of Cold Nights, quite a while before the Andii came traipsing out of KG. I suppose she could have been hanging out in Kharkanas at some point to earn the admiration of the Shake, but eeeh, that's something we can only speculate on.

No SoCN was her name and Nightchill a pseudonym. In MoI Kallor even comments on the lack of imagination.

[miriya]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 23 March 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

miriya, on 23 March 2011 - 03:29 PM, said:

Yeah, this is a complete mystery to me too, and when bumped around on the board it seems that the general consensus is that it's a title, but ... I need proof before I can wrap my mind around it. The first and maybe second time around, they just referred to the title of 'Sister of nights', and the addition of 'cold' showed up later, also -- wasn't Nightchill the goddess' name? Her landing in a spot that just happened to come with a title that's just a variation of her name (and the addition of 'sister' is a pretty happy coincidence, if she was, y'know, into that sort of thing. And Nightchill was along, as Sister of Cold Nights, quite a while before the Andii came traipsing out of KG. I suppose she could have been hanging out in Kharkanas at some point to earn the admiration of the Shake, but eeeh, that's something we can only speculate on.

No SoCN was her name and Nightchill a pseudonym. In MoI Kallor even comments on the lack of imagination.

Oh yeah? I'm so overdue for a re-read it's not funny.

In that case, it seems to be even less likely that she was this Tiste envoy, unless they were so tickled with her somehow that they decided to title any other envoy-type person with her proper name. I DON'T GET THIS AT ALL. D:

[Ceda Cicero]

For all we know the original SoCN had another name long before she was given that honorific by the Shake/Andii. Say, Suzie. Elder God Suzie comes to KG (this is not implausible - Draconus was a non-Andii and an EG who came to KG and took up a very significant role in their hierarchy and politics) and is named SoCN. Over time the honorific just takes the place of her name. Who knows, maybe a thousand years after tCG Korlat is still around occupying the role and she just goes by SoCN.

Other possibility is that the original SoCN was an Elder God of the Shake who then went out into the world to play her mortal game, and the Shake/Andii maintained a position with that title.

Again, it's all going to be speculation until the Kharkanas trilogy.

And I maintain that the simplest explanation for the Sister of Night/Sister of Cold Nights discrepancy is the best one. Variations on the same title. I think it's possible to overthink this.

[Abyss]

I'm blanking - Wasn't there also a mid-way inner monologue moment by Yeddan regarding a third sibling/sister to him and Twilight who had the same title?

Which would suggest that along with Queen and Watch there's a third position in the Shake hierarchy.

The Nightchill connection... well, Draconus pretended to be Andii at least once. Entirely possible that Nightchill did something similar and took on the name for herself, or the position is named for her.

[Daydreamer]

Abyss, on 23 March 2011 - 05:21 PM, said:

I'm blanking - Wasn't there also a mid-way inner monologue moment by Yeddan regarding a third sibling/sister to him and Twilight who had the same title?

Which would suggest that along with Queen and Watch there's a third position in the Shake hierarchy.

The Nightchill connection... well, Draconus pretended to be Andii at least once. Entirely possible that Nightchill did something similar and took on the name for herself, or the position is named for her.

I remember that monologue too. IIRC it doesn't specifically refer to a literal third sibling but a third position that should be filled but isn't. Actually, I think there's a reference to a fourth title as well. Something to do with the dawn?

First time I read it I thought the SoN/SoCN was a typo. I didn't catch it until the end when I went 'hang on, what now?!?'. But earlier on, when Korlat is given the position, the phrases are used within a page of each other, so if it were a mistake I would have expected someone to catch it there.

EDIT: Got the quote, I think. Yedan speaking to Withal. p.228
We are a contrary lot, us royals. A queen who defies sanctification, a prince who will never produce an heir, and what of Awakening Dawn? What of our Sister of Night? Gone, for ever gone. Yan Tovis and me, we are all that's left.
There's a chapter opening extract that refers to Awakening Dawn, as well. Chapter 5 p.119.

This post has been edited by Daydreamer: 23 March 2011 - 05:40 PM

[Sinisdar Toste]

also, the kings of the shake, such as brullyg wanted to be, were known as the rise - which could easily be a degradation of awakening dawn, or something else entirely

[Abyss]

'Sister of Night' could just be an abbreviation of the full title, tho that seems unlikely.

Leaving aside Nightchill for a moment, the use of 'Cold' could distinguish between a Shake and an Andii who fill the role.

[worry]

A little conjecture: My guess is that all four titles: Twilight, Watch, Awakening Dawn, and Sister of Cold Nights...are paths to a kind of ascendancy...certainly I believe the Twilight and Watch we came to know had more than mortal power, even if we account for the Hust sword. Nightchill is an Elder God in the same way that Errastas is an Elder God...they've both ascended from Shake/human respectively. Nightchill is an Elder God in terms of the mortal realm... she became worshiped in the mortal realm through blood sacrifice on a much wider scale than did Twilight (whose own blood seems meant to sustain her people, rather than the other way around -- the Shake witches seem to have devolved into leeches, at least). But that doesn't take away from the fact that Nightchill was once just a person in a role...she's just sufficiently old to have been an ascendant at a time when blood sacrifice was the mode of worship. I mean, hopefully this works out, didn't the exodus from KG happen while mortal realm EGs were still active? It must have been because it's before the TE clash with the TTT and Imass who escape the Lether continent. I don't know how that syncs up with the 7 Cycles or whatever they're called that Kuru Qan and all kept going on about.

[Mentalist]

worrywort, on 23 March 2011 - 09:19 PM, said:

A little conjecture: My guess is that all four titles: Twilight, Watch, Awakening Dawn, and Sister of Cold Nights...are paths to a kind of ascendancy...certainly I believe the Twilight and Watch we came to know had more than mortal power, even if we account for the Hust sword. Nightchill is an Elder God in the same way that Errastas is an Elder God...they've both ascended from Shake/human respectively. Nightchill is an Elder God in terms of the mortal realm... she became worshiped in the mortal realm through blood sacrifice on a much wider scale than did Twilight (whose own blood seems meant to sustain her people, rather than the other way around -- the Shake witches seem to have devolved into leeches, at least). But that doesn't take away from the fact that Nightchill was once just a person in a role...she's just sufficiently old to have been an ascendant at a time when blood sacrifice was the mode of worship. I mean, hopefully this works out, didn't the exodus from KG happen while mortal realm EGs were still active? It must have been because it's before the TE clash with the TTT and Imass who escape the Lether continent. I don't know how that syncs up with the 7 Cycles or whatever they're called that Kuru Qan and all kept going on about.

When the First exodus happened (the Scabby/Ruin one), the EGs were still kicking--in fact their power was on the rise--the TTTs worshipped them, and the K'Chain were just about ready to wipe themselves out. by the time the Edur were through, only Morn remained to the KCCM, and they were at war with the Short-tails.

this was before the Jaghut and Imass wars, too. Humans weren't even close to coming into the picture.

[Black Company]

Got to that before I did, WorryWort. But I don't think ascendancy has anything to do with it. Yan Tovis and Yedan Derryg were Twilight and the Watch, respectively, those were their titles and functions from when they were on the shore between Dark and Light. Sister of Cold Nights and Sister of Night are two totally separate things; SoCN was an Elder Goddess; Sister of Night was the ambassador[?] or liaison[?] between Karkanas and the Shore, Night and Shadow. In that vein, Awakening Dawn was probably the Light counterpart of that role.

I forgot where, but in TCG, SE mentions that there were more of the Watch, Yedan was just the last. I don't think either Yan or Yedan are close to ascendancy; the thing that set Yan apart was her royal blood which was used to open the gate to Dark. Well, maybe Yedan had a path to ascendancy after taking down a few dragons but he up and got himself kilt.

[Mentalist]

Black Company, on 24 March 2011 - 12:00 AM, said:

Got to that before I did, WorryWort. But I don't think ascendancy has anything to do with it. Yan Tovis and Yedan Derryg were Twilight and the Watch, respectively, those were their titles and functions from when they were on the shore between Dark and Light. Sister of Cold Nights and Sister of Night are two totally separate things; SoCN was an Elder Goddess; Sister of Night was the ambassador[?] or liaison[?] between Karkanas and the Shore, Night and Shadow. In that vein, Awakening Dawn was probably the Light counterpart of that role.

I forgot where, but in TCG, SE mentions that there were more of the Watch, Yedan was just the last. I don't think either Yan or Yedan are close to ascendancy; the thing that set Yan apart was her royal blood which was used to open the gate to Dark. Well, maybe Yedan had a path to ascendancy after taking down a few dragons but he up and got himself kilt.

Yedan was also of Royal Blood.

the Royal line of the Shake all carried the titles.

[worry]

I dunno, I think SoN and SoCN are pretty clearly the same thing in TCG. I am, though, a little iffy on the ascendancy thing since I'm not sure how appropriate a phrase it is for peoples not in the mortal realm.

Alternately, if FL was perceived as a sexual rival to Draconus, maybe Drac defined the need for the Shake at the Shore to keep all the TL out, and he put his little sis Nightchill in the role of SoCN. Maybe the advent of Lightfall is what brought out Draconus's nasty side.

Can't wait to find out, even if I'm a million miles off base.

[miriya]

Black Company, on 24 March 2011 - 12:00 AM, said:

Sister of Cold Nights and Sister of Night are two totally separate things; SoCN was an Elder Goddess; Sister of Night was the ambassador[?] or liaison[?] between Karkanas and the Shore, Night and Shadow. In that vein, Awakening Dawn was probably the Light counterpart of that role.

Right, but the part we're arguing is that twice (!!!) Korlat, upon receiving the title, is referred to specifically as Sister of Cold Nights. I'm with you; I think they're entirely different, but it's definitely a debatable thing. There's enough vagueness to make a 'well it could be' argument for SoCN=SoN.

As for the elder gods, were they all once just human? I know a lot of them were, but is there somewhere that specifically states that all were? In the time of holds, was K'rul just a dude? Nightchill was treated as an equal by K'rul and Draconis.

Quote

Other possibility is that the original SoCN was an Elder God of the Shake who then went out into the world to play her mortal game, and the Shake/Andii maintained a position with that title.

I'd be almost willing to buy this, but it'd be one of those things that SE did specifically to mess with us and set us up with something to chew on while we wait for the Kharkanas books. He's usually super-precise with his words, and there's no mention at all about Nightchill having anything to do with TA -- and it's something easily cleared up with just a few extra words, you know? 'Hey, be our SoCN, like so and so' or something and all question is gone.

[Ceda Cicero]

miriya, on 24 March 2011 - 12:57 AM, said:

Black Company, on 24 March 2011 - 12:00 AM, said:

Other possibility is that the original SoCN was an Elder God of the Shake who then went out into the world to play her mortal game, and the Shake/Andii maintained a position with that title.

I'd be almost willing to buy this, but it'd be one of those things that SE did specifically to mess with us and set us up with something to chew on while we wait for the Kharkanas books. He's usually super-precise with his words, and there's no mention at all about Nightchill having anything to do with TA -- and it's something easily cleared up with just a few extra words, you know? 'Hey, be our SoCN, like so and so' or something and all question is gone.

:shrug: Given how comparative little face time we get with the original SoCN/Nightchill and how little we know about her, and SE's propensity to go in unexpected directions with little to no warning, it wouldn't surprise me.

[miriya]

Cicero, on 24 March 2011 - 01:48 AM, said:

miriya, on 24 March 2011 - 12:57 AM, said:

Black Company, on 24 March 2011 - 12:00 AM, said:

Other possibility is that the original SoCN was an Elder God of the Shake who then went out into the world to play her mortal game, and the Shake/Andii maintained a position with that title.

I'd be almost willing to buy this, but it'd be one of those things that SE did specifically to mess with us and set us up with something to chew on while we wait for the Kharkanas books. He's usually super-precise with his words, and there's no mention at all about Nightchill having anything to do with TA -- and it's something easily cleared up with just a few extra words, you know? 'Hey, be our SoCN, like so and so' or something and all question is gone.

:shrug: Given how comparative little face time we get with the original SoCN/Nightchill and how little we know about her, and SE's propensity to go in unexpected directions with little to no warning, it wouldn't surprise me.

You're entirely correct, Cicero; just pointing out that based on what is given, this feels more plausible -- to me -- than any other possible explanation I've seen so far. I'm definitely not trying to pawn my thoughts off as fact -- even the stuff above is less me trying to make a point than gather information that might offer help or interpretation one way or the other, whether it fits my interpretation or not. No one but SE (and ICE, I'm sure) knows. And he does have a predilection for things like that, yes, but likewise he also likes to throw in faint but visible hints (when you know what you're looking for like, say, on a re-read) that make you facepalm and laugh that you completely missed it the first (second/third/fourth) time around. There's ... honestly not that much he has that turns out to be a true surprise at the point of impact when you can understand everything you're being presented in the story beforehand, and given how Nightchill was in the very first book and subsequently had every other book to be referenced in, however vaguely, it seems like there might be something in there. Likewise, the Shake have been around, quietly or otherwise, for several as well, so that's two fronts in which to drop those possible hints.

Started a fresh re-read last night; I'm open to whatever might (or might not) be in there.