[HoosierDaddy]

I agree there is nothing there other than the mention of Toblakai warren being used. The only other example you use are possibly heightened abilities, and really, that's about the only other thing that it could be considering Karsa.

Problem being, otataral has differing effects when using it on people, so I could just as easily make the opposite case.

So, back to the not mentioning something in a scene unless it's important: We've seen Karsa do other badass physical shit prior to this, but we've yet to see him shield himself from an elder warren.

Makes deductive sense to me, but I could be wrong and you right.

[Roldom]

you just totally caved

we have seen Otathal effect different people in different ways true, but i think that it universaly works to deaden magic. its the extras that change like healing abilities etc

maybe the Toblakai warren does help boost resistances but im still saying its more an endurance boost kind of thing, and maybe he had use of his warren as an endurance boost prior to him leaving the telbor lands which is why he is so badass, even when compared to other toblakai

[Roldom]

maybe it was just in the scene to hit home the fact that the silanda of kulp and co was the same boat that karsa had found earlier.

[HoosierDaddy]

 Roldom, on 26 February 2011 - 02:41 AM, said:

you just totally caved

we have seen Otathal effect different people in different ways true, but i think that it universaly works to deaden magic. its the extras that change like healing abilities etc

maybe the Toblakai warren does help boost resistances but im still saying its more an endurance boost kind of thing, and maybe he had use of his warren as an endurance boost prior to him leaving the telbor lands which is why he is so badass, even when compared to other toblakai

Otataral universally works to deaden magic when it is outside of the body. Once ingested/injected by the body, it's effects on the user are far more varied.

Frankly, the more I think about it, the more the whole situation is discombobulated: Karsa even manifesting his own warren while having rubbed himself down with otataral for years complicates matters to such a degree that we can't be sure either way.

As for Karsa being badass prior to leaving the Teblor lands, well that might have something to do with his being groomed by the Faces in the Rock for years as well.

Edit: Yes, there are multiple ships being rowed by beheaded Tiste Andii throughout the previous 3 books, so of course that clarification, (in a series notorious for zero clarifications) would make sense.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 26 February 2011 - 02:55 AM

[Beezulbubba]

My theory:

Karsa has honed a specific aspect of Mockra. Or in other words "mind over matter". He is not affected by magic because his mind doesn't believe he has been affected by magic.

An analogy is the boasts on this board about having a "threesome". .... pictures, or it did not happen!

[worry]

The Toblakai Warren is what allows Teblor to get away with one-word sentences, it has nothing to do with making Karsa impervious. That's mere coincidence.

[Roldom]

 HoosierDaddy, on 26 February 2011 - 02:53 AM, said:

Edit: Yes, there are multiple ships being rowed by beheaded Tiste Andii throughout the previous 3 books, so of course that clarification, (in a series notorious for zero clarifications) would make sense.

Exactly my point because.....ooooo i see what you did there, that was sarcasm wasnt it? and you made me think...ha

just because we have only seen one boat with headless TA doesnt mean theres no others, though ill concede the point there, it is obviously the same ship

do we ever hear of the toblakai warren in any other cases?

I have a vague recolation of tool mentioning it in GotM when he was with lorn and projecting his anti warren effect, presumabley refering to bullerdan ( i know its spelt wrong) who was a high mage, which makes it unlikly to be a magic deadening force

[HoosierDaddy]

 Roldom, on 26 February 2011 - 03:03 AM, said:

 HoosierDaddy, on 26 February 2011 - 02:53 AM, said:

Edit: Yes, there are multiple ships being rowed by beheaded Tiste Andii throughout the previous 3 books, so of course that clarification, (in a series notorious for zero clarifications) would make sense.

Exactly my point because.....ooooo i see what you did there, that was sarcasm wasnt it? and you made me think...ha

just because we have only seen one boat with headless TA doesnt mean theres no others, though ill concede the point there, it is obviously the same ship

do we ever hear of the toblakai warren in any other cases?

I have a vague recolation of tool mentioning it in GotM when he was with lorn and projecting his anti warren effect, presumabley refering to bullerdan ( i know its spelt wrong) who was a high mage, which makes it unlikly to be a magic deadening force

Bellurdan, and yes, I think you are correct it was mentioned around him.

Problem being, it is always described as being a "personal warren", as in there are no characteristics of the warren as a whole other than they are fairly unique to their user. Which would make someone who has used otataral on their bodies for a long time somehow manifesting his as an anti-magic warren make sense.

[Roldom]

would you say his diet would affect his use of warren? that if he eat nothing but bears he could summon one at a moments notice,

just because he has been surrounded by an enviromental factor doesnt mean his warren would mimic the enviroments effects

If anything his warren would have to fight through the magic deadening effect of otataral, i would assume that would make him unshieldable as a mage, rather than immune to others magic

[HoosierDaddy]

 Roldom, on 26 February 2011 - 03:12 AM, said:

would you say his diet would affect his use of warren? that if he eat nothing but bears he could summon one at a moments notice,

just because he has been surrounded by an enviromental factor doesnt mean his warren would mimic the enviroments effects

If anything his warren would have to fight through the magic deadening effect of otataral, i would assume that would make him unshieldable as a mage, rather than immune to others magic

1. If he ate otataral, I'd assume it would affect him. And, affecting him, it would probably affect his warren. But, we'll consider bears and otataral on the same level here. You are right.

2. Just because he rubbed otataral on him doesn't mean he somehow negates magic. I mean imbuing yourself with something anti-magic would have no affect in a world teeming with it. You are right.

3. If anything, him having a warren at all, considering the otataral use for an extensive period, would make his having one at all fairly unique. But, then again, he ate bears, so you are right.

[Roldom]

hah

the otatahal deadens the magic cast on him and around him, which is why ebron could hold him with that spell that was ment to catch dhenbrahl

if he could use his warren to block spells why didnt he use it then? he had no idea what ebron was going to do

i didnt say that imbuing the blood oil wouldnt have an effect, just that it wouldnt turn his warren into an anti magic shell, its the otatahal that deadens the magic, not his warren

[HoosierDaddy]

I have no idea what you are arguing anymore.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 26 February 2011 - 03:47 AM

[Roldom]

no, it was effective against the KE because KE is a shattered realm riven with younger warrens.

and it was also effective against Ruse, a spell that should of torn him to shreds only just managed to keep him in place, it didnt block the spell, but it did lessen it

[Roldom]

you edited your post and now mine doesnt make much sense...

[HoosierDaddy]

Okay, your argument rests on Emurlahn being, in effect, no longer Emurlahn when practiced by Edur because it's a "weakened" warren.

Mine rests on Toblakai having personal warrens that reflect them. Which, knowing the natue of otataral and Elder magic, the mention of the Toblakai warren becomes the shotgun on the shelf in the scene for me.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

Edit: Why did Ebron's magic work under my scenario? Karsa hadn't developed his warren yet, of course. It began on the crossing to 7-Cities.

This post has been edited by HoosierDaddy: 26 February 2011 - 03:55 AM

[Silk]

But surely the Teblor Warren is an Elder warren and in one of the books it mentions specific stronger individuals manifesting the personal warren?

[Illuyankas]

The Toblakai warren is an Elder one, otherwise it wouldn't extend past the otataral. That's why it worked on both KE and, more importantly, Tellann when he used it to free that Jaghut from the T'lan Imass ritual. It isn't just broken Elder warrens he can effect, it's all warrens he can deter with his personal Fuck You field, Elder or otherwise. It's not rocket sorcery. He's just a beast.



Bonehunters spoilers

Spoiler

(also KG since the Hounds of Darkness use it when they appear and presumably like the Shadow puppies they use it to fight so Karsa disabling this on them then killing them like bitches makes more sense to me but this isn't backed up by anything solid so feel free to disagree, unlike the Tellann smacking)

Mod Edit; Please try to remember where you are when posting~Bubba

[Illuyankas]

Uh, Bubba, the Deragoth do that in HoC, this book. There's no Bonehunters spoilers in that post.