[King Bear]

Ok so I'm on my first ever read through of ASOI&F. The series has been out for 15 years, I know, but I always planned to read it only after it was finished. I changed my plans beacuse of the TV series. I've been enjoying the series, it really is very good, although it can be quite slow. I'm really looking forward to ASOS, everyone says it's the best in the series, and some say it's a MOI, DHG, MT (*insert favourite malazan novel here*) killer. I guess I'll have to RAFO.

Anyway, the ending to ACOK (love it - A-COK!) was incredible.
***SPOILERS**** (though seriously, has anyone but me not read this yet?)
***SPOLIERS****




- Tyrion's ploy with the explosives. Class.

- The Hound gives up the battle and tells Tyrion to go fuck himself, pretty much.

- Tyrion rallies his demolarised men, and PERSONALLY leads them into the field.

- Tywin shows up and saves the Lannister day.

- Sansa addresses Cersei's assembly, after Cersei bolts.

- Theon gets his comeuppance for consistently being a stupid prick throughout the entire novel. Unfortunately taking Winterfell and its good folk with him.

- Halfhand forces Jon Snow to fight and kill him, something neither wants but which must be done for the good of Westeros (and Snow's life). Reminded me of the end to Spartacus.

Anyone notice a parallel between Theon in ACOK and Eddard in AGOT? Each was ultimately defeated by a combination of being simply outclassed and sticking to a dominant trait, instead of doing what could be said to be the smart thing under the circumstances. For Eddard it was his honour that killed him, and for Theon his hubris led to his downfall (not sure that he's actually dead). But whereas this made Eddard sympathetic and tragic, it just made Theon a douche.

This post has been edited by Bombur: 19 February 2011 - 03:40 AM

[Tyr]

Theon's arrogance did lead to his downfall. Although, he really had no choice at the end of the day. His decisions kept forcing him into a corner which he could do nothing about, and there was literally no one there to help him (his sister even told him she isnt going to help).

But Theon is not a prick. He is a tragic figure. He was taken hostage at a young age in order to keep his father in check, he comes from one world which he knows to a world in which he wants to belong, only to find out no one cares about him. His father probably mourned him after he was taken, and lets face it, who wants to give a "ghost" a position of power. Theon was just trying to prove himself, and he had no love for the Starks (save Robb) so why not take their home as your own, raise your family banner, and sit at the pedestal of the north? Sounds good in theory, but as we found out - Ironborn only have strength limited to the sea.

Theon would have been better off sacking Winterfell, then leaving with his sister. Even better, let the bastard of Bolton have it all for himself and see your enemy crippled and decentralized.

You are really going to enjoy the next book, its by far the best in the series (although I didnt enjoy it as much because I knew all the spoilers).

This post has been edited by Tyr: 19 February 2011 - 03:53 AM

[King Bear]

Tyr, on 19 February 2011 - 03:52 AM, said:

Theon's arrogance did lead to his downfall. Although, he really had no choice at the end of the day. His decisions kept forcing him into a corner which he could do nothing about, and there was literally no one there to help him (his sister even told him she isnt going to help).

But Theon is not a prick. He is a tragic figure. He was taken hostage at a young age in order to keep his father in check, he comes from one world which he knows to a world in which he wants to belong, only to find out no one cares about him. His father probably mourned him after he was taken, and lets face it, who wants to give a "ghost" a position of power. Theon was just trying to prove himself, and he had no love for the Starks (save Robb) so why not take their home as your own, raise your family banner, and sit at the pedestal of the north? Sounds good in theory, but as we found out - Ironborn only have strength limited to the sea.

Theon would have been better off sacking Winterfell, then leaving with his sister. Even better, let the bastard of Bolton have it all for himself and see your enemy crippled and decentralized.

You are really going to enjoy the next book, its by far the best in the series (although I didnt enjoy it as much because I knew all the spoilers).

You're right to point out that Theon was more complex than I had made out. I'd just finished the book and the way he acted throughout it had really annoyed me. Though still, I think that although he was trying to prove himself and was hard done by with his family, he was never really a nice person in the book. Can he be a prick and a tragic figure? A tragic prick? I just didn't like the guy. Even before arrving at the iron islands he had a bad attitude. You can understand why, due to his past, but that doesn't make him a nice guy, just tragic but still a bad guy. Like you might be able to understand why a pedophile horribly molests children (I'm not saying Theon was that bad), even sympathise with his plight, but doesn't mean he's not awful for doing it. I remember his sister saying something about mourning for the child who was, not the man he had become. THough I wasn't sure what to make of her either. She definitely seems a lot more savvy and pragmatic than Theon.

I don't know, Theon had opportunities to be a better person, growing up. The Starks never mistreated him, but seem to have treated him very well. He was in an unfortunate situation, but he could have made the most of it and learnt from them. He still would have been thrust into a war with them, but he would have done it as a better, more honourable man. It was tragic that his own family, who he wants to accept him, don't really want anything to do with him. But he hates the Starks, who seemed to like him and treated him well, but as a Greyjoy in the current war he must be opposed to anyway. Seems he was destined for some sort of tragedy.

I guess the lesson here is that ASOI&F characters are multi-dimensional, 'real' people. Reducing one POV character to the label 'prick' just won't do him justice.

[Tyr]

Indeed.

Theon is an asshole. But there is a person behind that asshole, and there are things about that person that extend far beyond what we see of him on a day to day basis. So he really is just a multi dimensional character.

Alot of Stark enthusiasts do dislike Theon. I for one, hated the Starks so I was fist pumping when I though the two boys were killed and was even happy when Reek (was that his name?) crushed Rodrik Cassel. Furthermore, I never really cared for how the Starks treated him. He was a ward yet prisoner, and although Ned made an effort to be nicer to him, we know how Catelyn feels about him, we see what Cassel thinks about him and we can estimate that the high ups in Winterfell were weary of his presence. Theon was a hostage in the same way Sansa is a hostage at KL, though she is at the whim of an insane Joffrey. He had every right to hate the Starks for that.

Also, good and bad should be blurred in this series. The Starks may seem righteous, but also commit terrible acts (Catelyn taking Tyrion prisoner, putting his life at the hands of an insane mother and child, etc). Things are not supposed to be justifiable, but understandable. And this should be the same for everyone. What Theon did was bad, but would it be less 'bad' to continue raiding shoreline villages?

Its really a blur. You cant say he is outright evil, because what constitutes good and evil? He was hard headed, foolish and overly ambitious. He did not do what he did because he was bad.

By the way: Who are your favorite characters thusfar?

This post has been edited by Tyr: 19 February 2011 - 07:57 AM

[King Bear]

Tyr, on 19 February 2011 - 07:49 AM, said:

Indeed.

Theon is an asshole. But there is a person behind that asshole, and there are things about that person that extend far beyond what we see of him on a day to day basis. So he really is just a multi dimensional character.

Alot of Stark enthusiasts do dislike Theon. I for one, hated the Starks so I was fist pumping when I though the two boys were killed and was even happy when Reek (was that his name?) crushed Rodrik Cassel. Furthermore, I never really cared for how the Starks treated him. He was a ward yet prisoner, and although Ned made an effort to be nicer to him, we know how Catelyn feels about him, we see what Cassel thinks about him and we can estimate that the high ups in Winterfell were weary of his presence. Theon was a hostage in the same way Sansa is a hostage at KL, though she is at the whim of an insane Joffrey. He had every right to hate the Starks for that.

Also, good and bad should be blurred in this series. The Starks may seem righteous, but also commit terrible acts (Catelyn taking Tyrion prisoner, putting his life at the hands of an insane mother and child, etc). Things are not supposed to be justifiable, but understandable. And this should be the same for everyone. What Theon did was bad, but would it be less 'bad' to continue raiding shoreline villages?

Its really a blur. You cant say he is outright evil, because what constitutes good and evil? He was hard headed, foolish and overly ambitious. He did not do what he did because he was bad.

I'll confess, I am a bit of a Stark enthusiast, and especially like Eddard and Jon. Not so keen on Catelyn as the others though, and I've always liked Tyrion.

Not just Ned, but also the winterfell maester and of course Robb made an effort with Theon. I'm sure others would have too. But not everyone, such as Catelyn. The maester seemed genuinely disappointed in what Theon had grown up to be, and from what he said he gave Theon a lot of attention growing up. Theon was their prisoner in a way, yes, and that would suck for him, but given the political system they lived in I'm not sure they had much choice about it. At least Eddard tried to treat Theon reasonably, well, reasonably given the situation.

Agreed that the Stark's aren't saints, and kidnapping Tyrion was pretty much criminal. Though the Starks do seem so far to be nicer people than the Lannisters or Greyjoys. They all seem to be, on balance, decent people. Could change though, especially with Arya. One thing I'd like to see is another Lannister POV, maybe Tywin or Jamie. What's interesting is that Sansa may be starting to blossom into a strong and noble leader type (as much as she can be under the circumstances), while Arya could be setting off down the road to becoming a cold, calculating murderer. She killed that gate guard pretty blithely, and would knife any number of Lannisters in cold blood. And to think in AGOT Sansa seemed like the less 'honourable' of the two Stark sisters.

That two readers can form completely different sentiments towards one faction in the books just shows how clever and textured ASOI&F is. I don't think anyone would be rooting for King Casmir in Lyonesse (not to slight Lyonesse, I love that series, and it has other strengths). Nor would anyone be rooting for Dharken Rhal in SOT... wait. That would mean Richard gets his ass handed to him, plus the series would not have got past book one. Ok go DR!

[End of Disc One]

I'm glad someone was here to stick up for Theon for me. Such a brilliantly developed character, and he gets a lot of hate.

This post has been edited by End of Disc One: 19 February 2011 - 01:15 PM

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Yeah well not many people remember that Theon went t the Iron Islands to pledge for Robb's ( who he himself admitted to be his best friend) cause and that he was bullied by his prick of a father in switching sides.

@Bombur: You'll get Jaime's POV in the next book

[Tyr]

End of Disc One, on 19 February 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

I'm glad someone was here to stick up for Theon for me. Such a brilliantly developed character, and he gets a lot of hate.

High five! Theon is one of my favorite characters, the first being God of all Gods, King Bronn.

Bauchelain the Evil, on 19 February 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

Yeah well not many people remember that Theon went t the Iron Islands to pledge for Robb's ( who he himself admitted to be his best friend) cause and that he was bullied by his prick of a father in switching sides.

@Bombur: You'll get Jaime's POV in the next book

His father disapproved of him and showed him no love. Like I said, Balon probably mourned Theon's death when he was taken away, and his arrival is not something expected nor wanted. Balon has plans that can go on without Theon, so why should he care?

In response to that, Theon tries to prove his worth to his father.

[King Bear]

End of Disc One, on 19 February 2011 - 01:15 PM, said:

I'm glad someone was here to stick up for Theon for me. Such a brilliantly developed character, and he gets a lot of hate.

Yeah the mere fact that we can form wildly different and understandable opinions on just about any given character (POV especially) in the book shows how layered and well-realised these characters are.

I'm excited for the Jamie POV in ASOS, thanks Bauchelain. Jamie is a character we haven't seen that much of, so it will be good to get into his head. I'm hoping to see more of Tywin in ASOS, should do now that he's the Hand.

[Shadow of Shadowthrone]

Re-read of A Clash of Kings @ Stormsongs(my blog).

This post has been edited by Shadow of Shadowthrone: 15 March 2011 - 06:12 PM

[Ceda Cicero]

@upthread - Have to echo the Theon love. GRRM is a master of making hateable characters multidimensional and cultivating empathy with the reader. SE does it too in MBotF, but it's always felt more abrupt and a little more like "Ahhhh SHIT now I can't just HATE him?!?" whereas with characters like Theon, Jaime, etc. it's a deliberate process that takes place more subtly, and over a longer period of time.

Spoiler

Stoked to see Theon's return in ADwD, though it'll probably be gut-wrenching to read now that he's been tortured and enslaved by Ramsay Bolton.

This post has been edited by Cicero: 15 March 2011 - 11:02 PM

[Abyss]

Cicero, on 15 March 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

@upthread - Have to echo the Theon love. GRRM is a master of making hateable characters multidimensional and cultivating empathy with the reader. SE does it to in MBotF, but it's always felt more abrupt and a little more like "Ahhhh SHIT now I can't just HATE him?!?" whereas with characters like Theon, Jaime, etc. it's a deliberate process that takes place more subtly, and over a longer period of time.

Spoiler

Stoked to see Theon's return in ADwD, though it'll probably be gut-wrenching to read now that he's been tortured and enslaved by Ramsay Bolton.

Agreed. it's one of GRRM's great strengths in that series and he does it a few times.

[McLovin]

Nearly finished with my re-read of ACOK, and I just gotta express my appreciation for the vast array of great characters GRRM has created. Roose Bolton is the creepiest mofo in Westeros.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 15 March 2011 - 08:33 PM, said:

Cicero, on 15 March 2011 - 07:00 PM, said:

@upthread - Have to echo the Theon love. GRRM is a master of making hateable characters multidimensional and cultivating empathy with the reader. SE does it to in MBotF, but it's always felt more abrupt and a little more like "Ahhhh SHIT now I can't just HATE him?!?" whereas with characters like Theon, Jaime, etc. it's a deliberate process that takes place more subtly, and over a longer period of time.

Spoiler

Stoked to see Theon's return in ADwD, though it'll probably be gut-wrenching to read now that he's been tortured and enslaved by Ramsay Bolton.

Agreed. it's one of GRRM's great strengths in that series and he does it a few times.

Indeed, and I really agree with the Theon love. The guy is totally raised by the Starks to be like a Stark, but his Greyjoyness always simmers on the surface...and I really believe that he was trying to be honorable when he went to his father, but Balon being a dick to him and bullying him after his own sister had shown she is far more Greyjoy than he just twisted him int he right way to make him turn....to even go so far as to try to take Winterfell to prove himself to his father.

It's funny that Westeros is all about Fathers. All about fathers. It melts my brain how much so actually.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

QuickTidal, on 06 July 2011 - 04:05 PM, said:

It's funny that Westeros is all about Fathers. All about fathers. It melts my brain how much so actually.

I believe Tyrion even lampshades it at one point.

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 06 July 2011 - 04:13 PM

[McLovin]

QuickTidal, on 06 July 2011 - 04:05 PM, said:

It's funny that Westeros is all about Fathers. All about fathers. It melts my brain how much so actually.

Huh. Never thought about that before. Good observation.

[flea]

True about fathers, since that world is a patriarchy. AFfC, however, is basically about the women of Westeros.