[ThinkingMalaz]

I was looking at the poll saying what are you, and I noticed that agnostics and atheists were put out as separate categories. Agnosticism however is not a belief or lack thereof it's a claim of knowledge and lack thereof. I often see that misconception and in my opinion it confuses matters. I would like to share a bunch of definitions which I think would make things much clearer for the purposes of discussions in this subforum. These definitions are from the Atheist Experience site from the Atheist FAQ

Q: What's the difference between an atheist and an agnostic?

A: It has to do with the difference between what you believe and what you think you know. For any particular god that you can imagine, a "theist" is one who has a belief in that god. In contrast, an "atheist" is one who does not have a belief in the god. A "gnostic" is one who knows about the existence of god and an "agnostic" is one who thinks that god is unknowable.

Notice that the terms "atheist" and "agnostic", by these definitions, are not mutually exclusive. You could be an agnostic atheist, meaning you don't think that the existence of gods is knowable, but you don't choose to believe in one without further proof. Many people assume that atheists believe that gods can be proved not to exist, but this isn't strictly true and there is no proper word to describe this. You could call such a person an "untheist", perhaps. Or, you could just call such a person a "gnostic atheist", one who doesn't believe in a god and thinks that his non-belief can be proved.

So there are four possible ways one could be.

1. Agnostic-Theist: believes god exists, but the existence of a god is unknowable
2. Gnostic-Theist: believes in a god for which he claims knowledge
3. Agnostic-Atheist: does not believe god exists, but it can't be proved
4. Gnostic-Atheist: believes it can be proved that god does not exist

Case 3 is sometimes referred to as "weak atheism" and case 4 is sometimes referred to as "strong atheism". Only strong atheism positively asserts that there are no gods.

Finally, it should be pointed out that when a person is asked about their beliefs and replies that they are agnostic, they are avoiding the question and answering a different one. Someone who can't positively say he/she believes in a god is an atheist.








for clarity by these definitions I am a weak atheist

[Orlion]

Interesting post, though I disagree with that last part: if you aren't certain there is a god, I don't think that makes you an atheist. You have to, as I understand it, believe there is not a god (whether it's provable or not, is a different matter).

I think there is even a third category that needs to be taken into account. I'll use an atheist as an example because I see more of them with this characteristic. In this case, the atheist doesn't believe in God because he doesn't see a reason to. This may have nothing to do with whether it's knowable or not, he just might not care. Same with a theist (except they believe in God because they don't see a reason not to).

[ThinkingMalaz]

Orlion, on 09 February 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

Interesting post, though I disagree with that last part: if you aren't certain there is a god, I don't think that makes you an atheist. You have to, as I understand it, believe there is not a god (whether it's provable or not, is a different matter).

I think there is even a third category that needs to be taken into account. I'll use an atheist as an example because I see more of them with this characteristic. In this case, the atheist doesn't believe in God because he doesn't see a reason to. This may have nothing to do with whether it's knowable or not, he just might not care. Same with a theist (except they believe in God because they don't see a reason not to).

I think the third category is a good idea

As to our first point I disagree with you on that. The meaning of atheist is a lack of belief in God. If you're not sure you obviously do not believe, making you an atheist by default

[Primateus]

I'm a "weak-atheist" myself and I don't think I've ever come across anyone who seriously claimed that they knew god does not exist. I have, however, come across several people who claims to know for a fact that god does exist.

I think it's intellectually dishonest to make such claims.

[ThinkingMalaz]

I think there are people who actually claim to know god does not exist but they are far and few between, and I think that the vast majority of atheists would fall under the 'weak atheist' category.

The thing this article tries to make clear is that atheism is not a belief that there is no god, but a lack of belief in a God. These two might sound very similar but there is an important difference, namely that atheism does NOT require belief, in fact it is the lack of belief that makes them atheists.

I agree it is intelectually dishonest to make claims like that

This post has been edited by ThinkingMalaz: 09 February 2011 - 01:28 PM

[Orlion]

ThinkingMalaz, on 09 February 2011 - 01:27 PM, said:

I think there are people who actually claim to know god does not exist but they are far and few between, and I think that the vast majority of atheists would fall under the 'weak atheist' category.

The thing this article tries to make clear is that atheism is not a belief that there is no god, but a lack of belief in a God. These two might sound very similar but there is an important difference, namely that atheism does NOT require belief, in fact it is the lack of belief that makes them atheists.

I agree it is intelectually dishonest to make claims like that

There is a difference between believing there is no God and a lack of a belief in God. I like to use the former to define atheism merely because it establishes what is the person's belief, not lack thereof. Also, we all (well, at least most) lack a belief in some god(s), so be the second criterion, we would all be atheists, which renders the label useless in distinguishing one's belief from another (as far as it goes for belief in diety).

[Use Of Weapons]

I pretty much identify with the strong atheist line of thinking. I'm happy to claim I know God doesn't exist, and to defend that claim for colloquial meanings of 'know' (borrowing arguments from Victor Stenger's book 'God the Failed Hypothesis: How Science Shows That God Does Not Exist'. I freely accept that many won't find those arguments convincing or complete, but they are enough to move me from the weak atheist position to the strong atheist position (gnostic-atheism as defined above).


I find it rather hypocritical of some theists (by no means all) to fall back on the mathematical logic truism of the impossibility of proving a negative, while failing to accept that same logic in the denial of the existence of their particular god by reference to contradictions in scripture. Thus, in a similar vein to any lecturer in philosophy confronted with a first-year student asking self-aggrandizingly, 'But what is truth?', I can happily live with the notion that my 'knowing' is not logically unassailable, but serves as a fine-and-dandy method of dealing with the world-as-I-find-it.

[rhulad]

I disagree that an atheist is someone that doesn't believe in a specific god, maybe I'm being a little pedantic but that would make everyone on the planet an atheist.

[ThinkingMalaz]

rhulad, on 09 February 2011 - 03:09 PM, said:

I disagree that an atheist is someone that doesn't believe in a specific god, maybe I'm being a little pedantic but that would make everyone on the planet an atheist.

yes that's right, in the sense that every believer lacks believe every religion other than their own. you're absolutely right. But I don't see a problem with that at all, because believers are often adept at spotting the logical inconsistencies in beliefs of a religion other than their own, showing they are willing to ask the same questions of other religions that atheists ask of all religions. someone who identifies as an atheist would lack belief in all of them.

This post has been edited by ThinkingMalaz: 09 February 2011 - 03:38 PM

[Primateus]

What's that saying? An atheist simply believes in one god less than you