[ansible]

Roger Ramjet, on 07 February 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

I believe the Protestant church preaches that everyone is going to heaven whether they believe or not. I think.

Nope.

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And in case the discussion moves in that direction let me defuse it preemptively, I do not need god to know right from wrong.

From a metaphysical perspective, without God there IS no absolute right or wrong, except what you decide or groups of individuals agree upon. The confusion comes when people mistake morality for societal progress or improvement. Whatever is "good" for society becomes "morally good"; things like not stealing or killing improve society as whole by providing stability, etc., but without an absolute reference frame they cannot be said to be absolutely "good" or "evil."

You said that you understand that this is an entirely different discussion, but your question betrays you.

[Aptorian]

ansible, on 07 February 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

Roger Ramjet, on 07 February 2011 - 10:21 PM, said:

I believe the Protestant church preaches that everyone is going to heaven whether they believe or not. I think.

Nope.

THEY LIED TO ME

[Bent]

@ Apt - Protestants believe this (its the Apostles creed)

I believe in God, the father almighty, creator of the heavens and the earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only son.

He was conceived by the Holy Spirit
Born of the virgin Mary
Suffered under Pontious Pilate
Was crucified, died and was buried
He descended into hell

On the third day he rose again and ascended into heaven
He sits at the right hand of the father
One day he will come again to judge both the living and the dead

I believe in the Holy Spitit
In the holy christian church (this is changed by catholics to say holy catholic church)
In the communion of the saints
In the forgivness of sins, the resurection of the body and life everlasting. Amen

This is the basics of any form of "Chistianity" although there are many differences depending on denomination.


@ Prime - We dont have to do it, we feel the innate need to do it. Otherwise we do things that make us as individuals simply feel good. like a drug. Thats not what this feels like, here I go trying to explain that pesky red. Only this time, its trying to explain the particular Shade of red to someone who thinks brick red and cherry red are the same thing, lol

I wont press you Prime - thats counter productive. Thats where alot of churches have failed, they push and push until they push you away. Its your choice, you made it, you live happily with it. Nothing I say will ever change your mind. But know one thing, one day, you'll look at a clock, and it will read 12:00. and 10 minutes later it will read 12:00

an hour later it will read 12:00


7 days later 12:00

37 minutes after that, you will hopefully come to realize that you need to program your clock.

[Primateus]

No, I understand it quite fine. What I meant when I said that I don't need god to know right from wrong is that just because I don't believe in god it doesn't mean I'll go on a killing spree or steal whatever is in sight or raping innocent children like some christians believe. Yes, I'm quite sure Bent is not one of them and I applaud him for that.

Maybe there's a problem with how I phrased my post, but I understand "it" just fine.

[Primateus]

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@ Prime - We dont have to do it, we feel the innate need to do it. Otherwise we do things that make us as individuals simply feel good. like a drug.

That's right, we don't HAVE to do anything, but like I said, do it because it's the right thing to do, that is enough. I don't know about drugs, I don't need to feel a need, like a drug, to do something good for other people.

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Thats not what this feels like, here I go trying to explain that pesky red. Only this time, its trying to explain the particular Shade of red to someone who thinks brick red and cherry red are the same thing, lol

I don't think brick red and cherry red are the same thing, please refrain from making assumptions on my part.

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I wont press you Prime - thats counter productive. Thats where alot of churches have failed, they push and push until they push you away. Its your choice, you made it, you live happily with it. Nothing I say will ever change your mind.

Whatever makes you think I'll never change my mind? I didn't say that. I said show me irrefutable evidence and then I'll believe. But if the bible is the supposed word of god, then I simply will not worship. Because the god of the bible is unworthy of our worship.

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But know one thing, one day, you'll look at a clock, and it will read 12:00. and 10 minutes later it will read 12:00

an hour later it will read 12:00

7 days later 12:00

37 minutes after that, you will hopefully come to realize that you need to program your clock.

I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about here.

[ansible]

Primateus, on 07 February 2011 - 10:56 PM, said:

No, I understand it quite fine. What I meant when I said that I don't need god to know right from wrong is that just because I don't believe in god it doesn't mean I'll go on a killing spree or steal whatever is in sight or raping innocent children like some christians believe. Yes, I'm quite sure Bent is not one of them and I applaud him for that.

Maybe there's a problem with how I phrased my post, but I understand "it" just fine.

I don't think anyone was saying that if you don't believe in God you will commit terrible acts that people agree to be "wrong." You're sure Bent is not one of who? Sorry, I'm confused.

My point is that to a religious believer, there can be no distinction between God and morality (for the reasons I discussed earlier). You claimed to understand this but then turned around and asked a believer to distinguish between God and morality...

[Bent]

I know where you got your info from, the whole - know right from wrong stuff. Pretty funny that, I was raised in a similar church, hell, a few months ago I even discussed those merits with obi in a thread in this very forum...but I've learned a bit since then, so I can say this

theres no significant difference in me and an "unsaved" (thats in quote marks because some people call the unsaved sinners, or fallen or numerous other weird things, lol for posterity I call you guys -non-believers.)

we all eat,sleep,love,feel,cry,laugh,lust,etc.

theres no significant differences in most religious people

we all eat sleep, pray, etc.

What makes Christianity so very different, and so very amazing to me is this

Grace.

Amazing Grace, most people have heard the song, but what is grace?

Grace is knowing that Prime is gonna punch me in the face, allowing him to do it, and instead of punching him back, me telling him I love him anyway. Or a better example would be - Prime telling me that he hated me and every thing I stood for, kicking me in the nuts, killing my first born child in front of me, laughing at my first born childs existence for a few thousand years, and me not ending him.

We always hear God is jealous (and he is, doesn't care for false Gods etc.) and that he is Vengeful (killed all those people in Haiti, what a joke) and he is (destroyed the earth once, promised to do it again.

But we never here about how gracious he is. So people are turned off, deny his existence, and ignore any other messages that has the word God involved in it.


So yeah, I understand how some on this forum think bad of Christians, and think its a waste of good brain cells, I really do, but theres an unexplainable feeling that transforms your very mind when you think that of all of the religions in the world, only one includes the fact that

a bastard child was born to a women whos character was questioned because of that kid,
who was given Frankincense and Mir (used to embalm the dead) as a first birth day present,
grew into a man who never once (allegedly, heh cynics abound) made a mistake according to the law back then.
Yet a known thief (Barabbas, good movie) was let go, so they could crucify him, and died at 33
And because of that grew to be the most written about and discussed figure to have ever existed.

Seriously, thats nuts. yet there is roughly 2-3 billion followers currently, and that number still grows.

2 billion (about 1/3 of the worlds population) believe in that dude, not some rich guy who had nations trembling before him, not some weird animal god that shoots lightning bolts from his face, not even some guy who likes to eat alot. (refering to Budda, cool dude)

Theres gotta be an explanation for that, something extra-ordinary. I am still learning but its pretty cool stuff.

Hard to read though, all those thous and thys and begets and begots and forsooths, lol

[Primateus]

The board is not letting me quote your post Ansible...

In any case, I never said that anyone said that. It was an example, a reference or whatnot. I am sure that Bent doesn't think that about us, nor did I intend to imply that he does (if I did, I apologize) It was merely an example, albeit a bad one, I see that now, because it seems to me that Bent thinks I don't understand where he's coming from in regards to belief in god. I do, I was there as I mentioned earlier.

And yeah, I see that I must have phrased my post wrong. Because I DO understand that to believers morality and god are indistinguishable. Morality comes from god, his word is law and he is all-loving

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and he has a special list with 10 things he does not want us to do

(quite shameless stolen from George Carlin)

All I meant to say was that doing good because it is the right to do should be enough!

I understand it quite fine, I was there!

[Bent]

Primateus, on 07 February 2011 - 11:06 PM, said:

blah

Sorry I dont like long quotes

1st point -yes

2nd point - Sorry went back to the metiphorical red to a blind guy thing, should have been clearer, I guess

3rd - you cant change your mind while demanding irrefutable proof -redundant argument. you cant have proof. and then you die. As to being unworthy to worship. Shame on you. thats my father you are talking about.

4th - After that rant I thought I should end with something dramatic and mysterious, thats what most people do when talking about the meaning of life. etc. It was a joke.

[Primateus]

Sure I can change my mind if you bring me proof of gods existance. That's the whole point. Right now I don't believe god exists. I obviously cannot know that for certain, but reality seems to, to me, suggest that god does not exist. You bring me evidence that he does, verifiable evidence, and I'll change my mind.

And I would think that your father was the man who helped conceive you (yes, I know what you meant)

[Bent]

Primateus, on 07 February 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:

All I meant to say was that doing good because it is the right to do should be enough!

Good works and good deeds wont get you to heaven. Why? because God said so. Also, I am not sure that I don't even now do good things for very selfish reasons. I gave a homeless dude a pair of socks cause it made me feel good, but I wouldnt let him stay in my house because I am selfishly thinking about self preservation. I know...I am definitely a hypocrite. Of course all Christians are - we hold ourselves to a higher standard than anyone else holds us to.

Its true.

How many people would willingly give up I dunno, looking at porn, lets say, because they didnt like the way it made them feel?

You wouldnt judge me if I looked at porn every day right? therefore I hold myself to a higher standard than you hold ME to.

And I wont judge you if you DO look at porn every day, because I couldnt possibly hold anyone to the standards I put on myself.

[Bent]

Primateus, on 07 February 2011 - 11:40 PM, said:

Sure I can change my mind if you bring me proof of gods existance. That's the whole point. Right now I don't believe god exists. I obviously cannot know that for certain, but reality seems to, to me, suggest that god does not exist. You bring me evidence that he does, verifiable evidence, and I'll change my mind.

And I would think that your father was the man who helped conceive you (yes, I know what you meant)

Proof - breathe

there you go.

Proof.

Its called faith for a reason. Means you cant have proof. Sorry. I get it, you want God (the same one who created everything, watches over everything,knows what did happen,is happening,and what will happen, the God that didn't force you to do anything, just said, choose, THAT God) to come say hello and chat with you. A bit conceited there arent you? Who are you? Why do you get that luxury when 2 billion believe without it? Dont blame God, blame the 2 billion of us that ruined your chances of meeting him, because we gave in way too easy. Sorry, next time I'll hold out for more, maybe if God gives me a hundred bucks.....

I am joking halfway you know. I get it, lots of people ask for proof. some even get it I suppose. most don't, but hey, maybe you will be one of them that sees him up close.

Moses saw the remnents of when he walked by the crack he hid in, and it made his hair and beard turn white. I hope he comes to you as a rock or something. That makes me smile, thinking of you sitting there, talking to a rock, hearing it (no one else can, mind) and laughing at how iave you were until he spoke to you.

Come on, thats funny stuff!

[Primateus]

Bent, on 07 February 2011 - 11:43 PM, said:

Good works and good deeds wont get you to heaven. Why? because God said so. Also, I am not sure that I don't even now do good things for very selfish reasons. I gave a homeless dude a pair of socks cause it made me feel good, but I wouldnt let him stay in my house because I am selfishly thinking about self preservation. I know...I am definitely a hypocrite. Of course all Christians are - we hold ourselves to a higher standard than anyone else holds us to.

I wouldn't let a homeless guy stay at my place either, but I would direct him to the nearest homeless shelter. I suppose you would too.

So you have the dude a pair of socks because it made you feel good about yourself. That is okay in my book, you feel better about yourself and the dude now has warmer feet. Total win-win situation.

And you're right, I wouldn't judge you for looking at porn, that would be none of my business and vice versa.

[Shinrei]

[thread hijack]

Bent, just want to say that I pretty much am with you on this. I tend to view faith as a rather private matter, so I don't generally get upset with anything or feel the need to contribute to religion threads.

If you do leave the forum though, I just want to say I'm going to miss you. I realize, of course, that this departure is actually due to the fact you know you're my number 1 kill target in mafia at the moment.

[/thread hijack]

[Bent]

Yeah, Im out, I'll be lurking behind the bushes, but I want to thank all of you for touching me in some small way...wait, stop touching me you sick twisted freaks.

Thanks for the memories, we'll talk again soon.

Also - someone keep Bubba in line, call him an ass at every turn, and basically make his life a living hell.

Finally I close with these words of wisdom that I once heard from a hermit traveling to Persia

"hey kid, which way to Persia?"

[bubba]

As per request I'm locking this thread and disabling Bents post abilities. If anyone want to get in contact with the EMO bastard they can PM me......