[serotonin]

Reaper's Gale was probably my favorite book to date, simply because almost every point-of-view segment used characters I found intensely interesting and/or entertaining to read about. That hasn't always been the case in past books. Not to mention that it marks the second time I've openly wept when reading (Beak's death... first time was Itkovian's death).

HOWEVER, some things about what happened in the book left me confused.

Basically, I just want clarification if it was provided directly or indirectly in Reaper's Gale or a past book, but I simply missed 'getting it', somehow. If it gets explained or validated in a later book, just say so.


- Why does Wither suddenly attempt to kill Udinaas at the end?

It seemed so random. I mean, Wither wasn't exactly a shining good guy, being the bitter, sardonic, and even cruel shade that he is... but he did deliberately safeguard Udinaas's life at the end of Midnight Tides, going out of his way to get Udinaas healed and insisting that he didn't deserve what had happened to him (forget the exact line, it was in the scene when the wyval rips out of Udinaas's body to go help Silchas break free from the Azath). It really gave you the impression that Wither had, despite himself, come to respect Udinaas and gain some empathy for him.

But then he suddenly turns around in RG and tries to crush Udinaas's throat, and gets annihilated by Seren for it. It was jarring and felt, to me, inexplicable. His destruction does not surprise me (he always felt expendable as a character), but his seemingly inconsistent motivations do.

Even worse, Wither apparently would have been brought back to life if he had simply stepped through the portal instead of attacking Udinaas, considering that's what happened to Hedge. (they were both ghosts, right? So if it worked for one, wouldn't it work for the other?) That just makes it all even more jarring.


- The nameless dead Jaghut on the throne of ice that Hedge and Emroth come across.

Is that supposed to be Hood, you think?

Erikson writes the passage in that annoyingly coy way of his when he thinks a revelation should be mostly obvious to the reader, but doesn't wanna spell it out.


- The Seguleh champion.

I know there's been plenty of speculation already here regarding WHY she skipped out on fighting Rhulad. But I'm not asking about that.

Rather, I'm confused by how the Letherii didn't seem to notice or care that she opted to skip out, as highlighted in conversation between Gnol and Rhulad near the end. Gnol speaks to Rhulad about how only two challengers remained, and Icarium had 'fled', so only Karsa was left. But he conspicuously makes no mention whatsoever of the Seguleh doing exactly the same thing, who was supposed to fight Rhulad directly before Karsa.

Was that simply a goof with Erikson's writing, you think?


- This is actually more of lingering question regarding Memory of Ice, but it rears its head for me again in Reaper's Gale with the return of the character in question, so I'll ask it here...

How exactly did Tool (Onos, whatever) regain life?

It know it happened at the end of MoI. And apparently I completely missed how that happened. Onos reunites with his sister, and then suddenly he appears alive and non-undead in the epilogue. The heck?

Actually... is it supposed to be Reaper's Gale that finally explains it? Kilava took Onos to that plane with the living Imass and the Scabandari finnest behind the scenes, and that's how he regains life?


- The way certain characters are getting resurrected from death seems a little... cheap.

WHY exactly does that plane with the finnest (and now the new Azath house) bring ghosts and undead back to life (and they stay that way even after they leave)?

HOW exactly does Brys get to come back to life just because people have his severed fingers and that guardian of forgotten gods dude took away his corpse? Dead is dead, and that poison definitely killed him.


- Quick Ben suddenly having enough brute magical strength to beat up not one, not two, but THREE legendary, 600 millennia old (or older) soletaken eleint daughters of Tiam who were basically demi-gods or something felt a lot like cheap narrative convenience. Yes, he's got access to 12 warrens / souls and all that mysterious jazz, but his whole deal in the past has been his trickery, adaptability, and uncanny foresight that's made him so formidable... not brute sorcerous might.

I know he briefly mentions that since the encounter with Icarium, he's gotten "nastier"... is this gonna be explained, or are we just supposed to not really think about how this makes any sense and just go with the flow, as readers? Quick Ben, Steve Erikson's pet character that can do whatever he wants.


- What happened to Rautos Hivanar? He takes a walk during the rioting at the end and we never hear from him again. I was never able to really figure him out, as a character. For being the Liberty Consign leader, he didn't seem all that bad beneath it all.


- Was the Taxilian supposed to be somebody important? Someone we know? I just felt with the way he was written about and the way he conducted himself as a character, there was supposed to be more to him than just his anonymous, nameless ancillary role in the narrative... something unrevealed.

But then he abruptly gets vaporized at the end RG, so now I don't know what the ****.


- So Erikson cruelly kills off poor Toc AGAIN, and so again we still don't know what the deal is with him, his weirdly powerful stone arrows, his premonitions having something do with his one-eyedness, and Onos calling him "Aral Fayle" and he and Kilava acting like that is some sort of big deal.

I expected the whole "Aral Fayle" thing to finally get explained in RG, but then it didn't, so now I'm wondering if I missed it in MoI. Did I?

This post has been edited by serotonin: 07 February 2011 - 09:44 AM

[Tattersail_]

i'll answer some of these I think.

The Segulah champion was beaten by Karsa, these characters as a race defer to the better warrior's, Karsa beat her so there was no point in her trying to beat Rhulad. This was how I saw it anyway.

Taxilian I am sorry but you will have to read on and find out

Although the books are in order it does not mean the sequence of events are in order, there is an order in which the books could be read to get a good placement in time that is with your questions to Onos Tool'an but the timeline is not important. maybe someone else can explain a little bit better on this one.

I have my own opinions on the other things you have asked but it would be better coming from someone who explain a lot better like Silencer or Abyss or Hetan or Mal malazan Pro's if you will ....

[JPK]

I feel there are others that are more qualified than I to answer most of your questions but I will tackle the QB bit. We've never really seen what he actually could do at full tilt until this point. He always avoided going to brute force direction (i suspect out of personal preference). Really, the closest we've seen was waaaay back in MoI when he blasted Bauchelain, and even then it was specially remarked upon that he was holding back.

Quote

MoI pg 586
'And I confess,' Bauchelain continued, 'that curiosity is a rather obsessive trait of mine, often resulting in regrettable violence to the one being questioned, particularly when he or she is not as forthcoming as I would like. Now, six, seven warrens---'
'Six.'
'Six warrens, then - all at once - your claim to finding little inconvenience in the effort strikes me as bravado. Therefore, I conclude that you are, shall we say it bluntly: used up.''

...

'Thank you. I'll not deny that I am impressed by your mastery of six warrens, Quick Ben. In retrospect, you should have held back at least half of what you command.' The man made to rise.
'But, Bauchelain,' the wizard replied, 'I did.'

And let's not forget what happened when he did show a good chunk of his power at the end of MoI. The hints of QB's brute might have been there, he just doesn't like to reveal his whole hand.

Btw, I'd like to see a good answer to the Onos bit. That went right over my head as well.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

serotonin, on 07 February 2011 - 08:44 AM, said:

Reaper's Gale was probably my favorite book to date, simply because almost every point-of-view segment used characters I found intensely interesting and/or entertaining to read about. That hasn't always been the case in past books. Not to mention that it marks the second time I've openly wept when reading (Beak's death... first time was Itkovian's death).

HOWEVER, some things about what happened in the book left me confused.

Basically, I just want clarification if it was provided directly or indirectly in Reaper's Gale or a past book, but I simply missed 'getting it', somehow. If it gets explained or validated in a later book, just say so.


- Why does Wither suddenly attempt to kill Udinaas at the end?

It seemed so random. I mean, Wither wasn't exactly a shining good guy, being the bitter, sardonic, and even cruel shade that he is... but he did deliberately safeguard Udinaas's life at the end of Midnight Tides, going out of his way to get Udinaas healed and insisting that he didn't deserve what had happened to him (forget the exact line, it was in the scene when the wyval rips out of Udinaas's body to go help Silchas break free from the Azath). It really gave you the impression that Wither had, despite himself, come to respect Udinaas and gain some empathy for him.

But then he suddenly turns around in RG and tries to crush Udinaas's throat, and gets annihilated by Seren for it. It was jarring and felt, to me, inexplicable. His destruction does not surprise me (he always felt expendable as a character), but his seemingly inconsistent motivations do.

Even worse, Wither apparently would have been brought back to life if he had simply stepped through the portal instead of attacking Udinaas, considering that's what happened to Hedge. (they were both ghosts, right? So if it worked for one, wouldn't it work for the other?) That just makes it all even more jarring.

Because Udinaas didn't want Kettle to be killed and that of course would have messed wi the Azath and Ruin's ( Wither boss) plan


- The nameless dead Jaghut on the throne of ice that Hedge and Emroth come across.

Is that supposed to be Hood, you think?

Erikson writes the passage in that annoyingly coy way of his when he thinks a revelation should be mostly obvious to the reader, but doesn't wanna spell it out.

RAFO


- The Seguleh champion.

I know there's been plenty of speculation already here regarding WHY she skipped out on fighting Rhulad. But I'm not asking about that.

Rather, I'm confused by how the Letherii didn't seem to notice or care that she opted to skip out, as highlighted in conversation between Gnol and Rhulad near the end. Gnol speaks to Rhulad about how only two challengers remained, and Icarium had 'fled', so only Karsa was left. But he conspicuously makes no mention whatsoever of the Seguleh doing exactly the same thing, who was supposed to fight Rhulad directly before Karsa.

Was that simply a goof with Erikson's writing, you think?


- This is actually more of lingering question regarding Memory of Ice, but it rears its head for me again in Reaper's Gale with the return of the character in question, so I'll ask it here...

How exactly did Tool (Onos, whatever) regain life?

It know it happened at the end of MoI. And apparently I completely missed how that happened. Onos reunites with his sister, and then suddenly he appears alive and non-undead in the epilogue. The heck?

Actually... is it supposed to be Reaper's Gale that finally explains it? Kilava took Onos to that plane with the living Imass and the Scabandari finnest behind the scenes, and that's how he regains life?

Tool abandoned his role as First Sword and Silverfox freed him from the Ritual


- The way certain characters are getting resurrected from death seems a little... cheap.

WHY exactly does that plane with the finnest (and now the new Azath house) bring ghosts and undead back to life (and they stay that way even after they leave)?

HOW exactly does Brys get to come back to life just because people have his severed fingers and that guardian of forgotten gods dude took away his corpse? Dead is dead, and that poison definitely killed him.

The Guardian didn't simply take his corpse, he brought also his soul in Mael's realm because ortherwise all the forgotten gods would have died with him. The fingers serve as anchors or somesuch

- Quick Ben suddenly having enough brute magical strength to beat up not one, not two, but THREE legendary, 600 millennia old (or older) soletaken eleint daughters of Tiam who were basically demi-gods or something felt a lot like cheap narrative convenience. Yes, he's got access to 12 warrens / souls and all that mysterious jazz, but his whole deal in the past has been his trickery, adaptability, and uncanny foresight that's made him so formidable... not brute sorcerous might.

I know he briefly mentions that since the encounter with Icarium, he's gotten "nastier"... is this gonna be explained, or are we just supposed to not really think about how this makes any sense and just go with the flow, as readers? Quick Ben, Steve Erikson's pet character that can do whatever he wants.

If you read it carefully QB didn't play fair (as always). he used one of his magic stones on Menandore plus Hedge's cussers plus knowing that the sisters would have betrayed each others plus his strecthed post-Icarium powers. And still Sukul Ankadu escaped. Also a case of old, ancient powerhouses being beaten by the newer, more imaginative guys


- What happened to Rautos Hivanar? He takes a walk during the rioting at the end and we never hear from him again. I was never able to really figure him out, as a character. For being the Liberty Consign leader, he didn't seem all that bad beneath it all.

He gets fried by Icarium's machine



- Was the Taxilian supposed to be somebody important? Someone we know? I just felt with the way he was written about and the way he conducted himself as a character, there was supposed to be more to him than just his anonymous, nameless ancillary role in the narrative... something unrevealed.

But then he abruptly gets vaporized at the end RG, so now I don't know what the ****.


- So Erikson cruelly kills off poor Toc AGAIN, and so again we still don't know what the deal is with him, his weirdly powerful stone arrows, his premonitions having something do with his one-eyedness, and Onos calling him "Aral Fayle" and he and Kilava acting like that is some sort of big deal.

I expected the whole "Aral Fayle" thing to finally get explained in RG, but then it didn't, so now I'm wondering if I missed it in MoI. Did I?

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 07 February 2011 - 11:04 AM

[worry]

The resurrection stuff is MUCH easier on Lether, at least a large chunk of the continent, because there is no Hold of Death. That is why there are an abundance of ghosts and spirits. Nobody who dies within the vicinity of Gothos's ritual actually leaves to Hood's Realm. This is as true of Brys as it is of Kuru Qan, Harlest Eberict, Shurq Elalle, and everybody else in generation upon generation since the ritual.

The Refugium was created/manipulated/faithed into being what it is. It's another fragment of Shadow, right? These things seem to become whatever their usurpers turn them into, as with the Whirlwind Goddess's fragment. I mean, Shadow is inherently not fixed to any set of rules.

[HoosierDaddy]

I don't think the Refugium is part of Emurlahn, simply because Shadowthrone had to ask for access to it from Menandore. I believe it's the "Gateway" to Starvald Demelain. I could be off here, though. The possible Emurlahn fragment could be correct.

As for Toc (Aral Fayle) and the weirdly strange stone weapons. Who made those weapons and what is Toc? Toc is the Mortal Sword of one of the Wolves of Winter and has imbued with Tellan or some other Imass weapons of stone (see Karsa's sword). He's a friend of the First Sword of the T'lan Imass, thus the name, and Imass names have power. So his efficacy and weapons are explainable in that way.

[serotonin]

Bauchelain the Evil, on 07 February 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

Because Udinaas didn't want Kettle to be killed and that of course would have messed wi the Azath and Ruin's ( Wither boss) plan

That doesn't resolve what I was talking about, though. Inconsistent character behavior.

Even if Wither was doing Silchas' bidding (and I'm sure he was), attempting to KILL Udinaas felt extreme and inconsistent with his previous character development. As I already explained. Just immobilizing him would have sufficed -- but instead, he outright attempts to crush his throat.

Afterall, of all the characters in their party, Udinaas was the most helpless one, aside from his foresight. Silchas could have completely ignored Udinaas running away with Kettle, then turned around once he got the finnest and snatched Kettle back with little difficulty. So why order Wither to murder Udinaas so unnecessarily? Particularly when Silchas himself was already shown to be somewhat reluctant to kill unnecessarily (e.g. makes no real attempt to kill Trull -- he could have blasted him with sorcery at any time during their dueling, not to mention when Trull went down -- and only knocks Onrack aside with sorcery instead of doing much worse just as easily... all before Kilava actually showed up and presented her threat).

Quote

RAFO

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

Quote

Tool abandoned his role as First Sword and Silverfox freed him from the Ritual

This can't be right. Silverfox never had the power to actually bring the T'lan back to life, because simply releasing them from the ritual wouldn't do that. The Logros wanted her to release them from the ritual so that they could simply be obliviated. That was made very clear in MoI.

Quote

The Guardian didn't simply take his corpse, he brought also his soul in Mael's realm because ortherwise all the forgotten gods would have died with him. The fingers serve as anchors or somesuch

This doesn't address what I was asking. I know Hood didn't have his soul, but what difference should that really make?

The problem here is regarding how if Brys could be resurrected so simply, why can't pretty much everyone who's died in Lether since Gothos' ritual be resurrected in just about the same fashion?

Quote

If you read it carefully QB didn't play fair (as always). he used one of his magic stones on Menandore plus Hedge's cussers plus knowing that the sisters would have betrayed each others plus his strecthed post-Icarium powers. And still Sukul Ankadu escaped. Also a case of old, ancient powerhouses being beaten by the newer, more imaginative guys

Hedge's cusser was only used to finish off one of the dragons, and the stone was only used to raise the wall of earth that initially stopped their flight. Before the cusser and after the wall of earth, Ben was launching hugely powerful waves of magic that were literally beating up three legendary dragon gods at once, if not outright killing them. Nothing imaginative about that, just brute strength, as I said.

Quote

He gets fried by Icarium's machine

So you guess. Unless I'm not remembering correctly, it was never mentioned that Rivanar was killed by the energy, when the book deliberately made sure to mention Veed, the Assessor, and Taxilian being killed.

Regardless though, this wasn't really one I needed to ask in the post, just nevermind about it. If Rivavar isn't dead, he'll be back in a later book, same as I expect Erikson will get around to explaining the significance of the whole deal with Redmask and Drene's events in what was otherwise a seemingly unnecessary tangent to the main storyline that had no real impact on everything else that happened in Reaper's Gale.

[Illuyankas]

You're not remembering correctly, Rivanar basically gets his brain sucked out by Icarium's machine. Also Quick Ben versus the dragons was a case of surprising them, confusing them, them all planning on betraying each other and not working together efficently, and cussering the remaining one before it can crawl away after being gouged by the one it killed. The one that fled got killed by two Bonecasters, so Quick in effect didn't kill any of them. It's a classic case of old gets boned by underestimating new.

Oh, and RAFO = Read and find out.

[serotonin]

HoosierDaddy, on 07 February 2011 - 10:31 PM, said:

I don't think the Refugium is part of Emurlahn, simply because Shadowthrone had to ask for access to it from Menandore. I believe it's the "Gateway" to Starvald Demelain. I could be off here, though. The possible Emurlahn fragment could be correct.

As for Toc (Aral Fayle) and the weirdly strange stone weapons. Who made those weapons and what is Toc? Toc is the Mortal Sword of one of the Wolves of Winter and has imbued with Tellan or some other Imass weapons of stone (see Karsa's sword). He's a friend of the First Sword of the T'lan Imass, thus the name, and Imass names have power. So his efficacy and weapons are explainable in that way.

Okay, what does "Aral Fayle" actually mean? I don't know.


Also...

Back in MoI, Kilava acts like there's something about the name and its import that goes beyond simple personal significance to Onos. I remember she and Onos are talking, and Onos mentions him being "Aral Fayle", and Kilava says something like "And you gave him stone weapons?!" , like that was some sort of potentially dangerous thing to do, considering what they knew about the name and what it meant. I also recall that when Onos first gave Toc the name, he did so in a moment of expression that seemed akin to shock, like it was a sudden realization he had about Toc.

Anyway, RG also just raised more question about the stone arrowheads without answering the old questions: now we know the arrowheads can counter (or even dispel) magic, apparently never miss, and can make the heads of mages explode, even mages magically linked to the mage that has the arrow shot at him/her. No other T'lan stone weapons have been shown to do things like this. Not even Karsa's sword.

And yet despite making Toc even more of a enigma in RG... Erikson abruptly kills him off. Again.

Gaah.

[serotonin]

ansible, on 07 February 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

Memories of Ice said:

'Obelisk,' Tool said. 'In the ancient Deck of Holds, it was known as Menhir. Touched by stone, mortal - Chen're aral lich'fayle - there, on your brow. I give you a new name. Aral Fayle.'

Tool names him this because of the chunk of Moon's Spawn that takes Toc's eye.

Illuyankas, on 07 February 2011 - 10:44 PM, said:

You're not remembering correctly, Rivanar basically gets his brain sucked out by Icarium's machine. Also Quick Ben versus the dragons was a case of surprising them, confusing them, them all planning on betraying each other and not working together efficently, and cussering the remaining one before it can crawl away after being gouged by the one it killed. The one that fled got killed by two Bonecasters, so Quick in effect didn't kill any of them. It's a classic case of old gets boned by underestimating new.

Oh, and RAFO = Read and find out.

You guys keep missing the point about the brute-strength thing. I never said Ben killed any of them... but simply throwing waves of magic powerful to beat up three such entites at once all by itself far exceeds anything Ben's been shown to do before.

Someone else mentioned the Bauchelain encounter, I believe? That's actually a case in point, because it stands in contrast to this situation. In that event, Ben used everything he had to simply knock out two human, unascended mages (albeit High Mages). It was stated afterwards that he didn't have a lick of anything leff to throw, which is why he had to bolt out of there.

And so from that, we go to Ben having enough brute strength to throw MULTIPLE waves of magic that can simultaneously beat up three legendary dragon gods? And then he hops out of the Refugium to Letheras and does the same thing again to Silchas Ruin?

It's a whole different level, guys. This should be obvious.


Anyway, it's obvious now that there wasn't an explanation I missed, since you're all just trying to rationalize it no better than I could. So we don't need to keep discussing it.

This post has been edited by serotonin: 07 February 2011 - 11:08 PM

[ansible]

Memories of Ice said:

'Obelisk,' Tool said. 'In the ancient Deck of Holds, it was known as Menhir. Touched by stone, mortal - Chen're aral lich'fayle - there, on your brow. I give you a new name. Aral Fayle.'

Tool names him this because of the chunk of Moon's Spawn that takes Toc's eye.

[serotonin]

Okay. Makes sense. I clearly missed or forgot that. Thank you.


Still wanna know why simply being given the name and losing an eye to a piece of stone flung from a K'Chain Che'Malle (or is it the short-tails) fortress suddenly gives Toc extraordinary and unique stone-weapon powers, though. As I'm sure all of you do, too.

[Illuyankas]

serotonin, on 07 February 2011 - 10:56 PM, said:

You guys keep missing the point about the brute-strength thing. I never said Ben killed any of them... but simply throwing waves of magic powerful to beat up three such entites at once all by itself far exceeds anything Ben's been shown to do before.

Someone else mentioned the Bauchelain encounter, I believe? That's actually a case in point, because it stands in contrast to this situation. In that event, Ben used everything he had to simply knock out two human, unascended mages (albeit High Mages). It was stated afterwards that he didn't have a lick of anything leff to throw, which is why he had to bolt out of there.

And so from that, we go to Ben having enough brute strength to throw MULTIPLE waves of magic that can simultaneously beat up three legendary dragon gods?

It's a whole different level, guys. This should be obvious.

We have two different definitions of 'beat up' here, clearly. I'm seeing a mage throw large amounts of hill at three dragons, dropping them to the ground in shock and knocking them around but doing little permanent damage, then one of the three fucks off and another kills the last while they're all distracted, before being exploded by high explosives. From Quick's description afterwards of him exhausted while he didn't even kill one of them, the one who left alive was damaged but still perfectly able to kill the shit out of him and left it for more important things. So yeah, he's considerably more powerful but not unbelievably, immersion-breakingly so, and he's still using his brain to beat them, with the lack of trust abusing and so forth. Hell, he's thrown a hillside at an enemy force before, this time it was just upwards instead of down.

Anyway, that's why I think the powerup isn't too ridiculous, and you disagree, which is fine. You're not 'wrong' and I'm not 'right'.

[Illuyankas]

serotonin, on 07 February 2011 - 11:05 PM, said:

Okay. Makes sense. I clearly missed or forgot that. Thank you.


Still wanna know why simply being given the name and losing an eye to a piece of stone flung from a K'Chain Che'Malle (or is it the short-tails) fortress suddenly gives Toc extraordinary and unique stone-weapon powers, though. As I'm sure all of you do, too.

I'm going with Tool being an ascendant and Toc being a Mortal Sword, personally. More the latter than the former, at least.

[Sinisdar Toste]

RE: Wither and Udinaas. what wither is really doing here, imo, is taking seren pedac, the one who has recently become someone that needs to be factored into the power equation, and forcing her to split her powers between saving several different people, thus allowing silchas to do what he needs to. does she attack clip, wither, or silchas? well she does as much as she can, but it's not enough. udinaas lives, but because seren had to take a moment to stop wither, other things have happened that she might have stopped. and actually, i don't think wither and udinaas are getting along as swimmingly as you seem to think. wither is suspicious of how udinaas knows so much, and udinaas thinks wither is a blind fool. the scenes in the mountains and the warrens seemed to me to display this. wither never cared for udinaas, he was using him, like everyone else.

RE: Tool and Silverfox. as the first living bonecaster in 300,000 years, silverfox does indeed possess the ability to release t'lan from the ritual. she even remarks on how easy it is to do so at the end of MoI iirc.


as for Brys, sorry, but dead is not dead, you should know that by now. resurrection can happen in many different ways in this universe, and magic is very oriented toward blood and flesh. thus, the fingers

[D'rek]

serotonin, on 07 February 2011 - 10:38 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 07 February 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

Because Udinaas didn't want Kettle to be killed and that of course would have messed wi the Azath and Ruin's ( Wither boss) plan

That doesn't resolve what I was talking about, though. Inconsistent character behavior.

Even if Wither was doing Silchas' bidding (and I'm sure he was), attempting to KILL Udinaas felt extreme and inconsistent with his previous character development. As I already explained. Just immobilizing him would have sufficed -- but instead, he outright attempts to crush his throat.

Afterall, of all the characters in their party, Udinaas was the most helpless one, aside from his foresight. Silchas could have completely ignored Udinaas running away with Kettle, then turned around once he got the finnest and snatched Kettle back with little difficulty. So why order Wither to murder Udinaas so unnecessarily? Particularly when Silchas himself was already shown to be somewhat reluctant to kill unnecessarily (e.g. makes no real attempt to kill Trull -- he could have blasted him with sorcery at any time during their dueling, not to mention when Trull went down -- and only knocks Onrack aside with sorcery instead of doing much worse just as easily... all before Kilava actually showed up and presented her threat).

I disagree about Wither's character. In MT the only time he shows Udinaas compassion is while the guy is lying unconscious after carrying Wither and the Wyval through Letheras and a ton of Jheck. I imagine Wither felt he owed it to him, and he wasn't necessarily ready to really sacrifice his life for Udinaas or anything like that. The rest of the time he is condescending and annoying to Udinaas, calling him slave to "keep him mindful" and bringing him into random warrens whether Udinaas likes it or not. He seems like a pretty precise, cold and calculating Tiste Andii to me.

Quote

Tool abandoned his role as First Sword and Silverfox freed him from the Ritual

This can't be right. Silverfox never had the power to actually bring the T'lan back to life, because simply releasing them from the ritual wouldn't do that. The Logros wanted her to release them from the ritual so that they could simply be obliviated. That was made very clear in MoI.

Additional emphasis was directed at the fact that he was the First Sword at the time, so that may have also been a factor.

Quote

The Guardian didn't simply take his corpse, he brought also his soul in Mael's realm because ortherwise all the forgotten gods would have died with him. The fingers serve as anchors or somesuch

This doesn't address what I was asking. I know Hood didn't have his soul, but what difference should that really make?

The problem here is regarding how if Brys could be resurrected so simply, why can't pretty much everyone who's died in Lether since Gothos' ritual be resurrected in just about the same fashion?

Yes, just about anybody could have been resurrected if they'd died, had their soul and bodies taken to an underwater demesne by an ascendant and been summoned by the high priestess of an Elder God.

Quote

He gets fried by Icarium's machine

So you guess. Unless I'm not remembering correctly, it was never mentioned that Rivanar was killed by the energy, when the book deliberately made sure to mention Veed, the Assessor, and Taxilian being killed.

Regardless though, this wasn't really one I needed to ask in the post, just nevermind about it. If Rivavar isn't dead, he'll be back in a later book, same as I expect Erikson will get around to explaining the significance of the whole deal with Redmask and Drene's events in what was otherwise a seemingly unnecessary tangent to the main storyline that had no real impact on everything else that happened in Reaper's Gale.

Anything that is given an entire plotline and 3 PoVs of a novel is not just going to be left to the wayside. Trust in Erikson, but prepare for him to make it important in ways you completely didn't expect.

[nacht]

- What happened to Rautos Hivanar? He takes a walk during the rioting at the end and we never hear from him again. I was never able to really figure him out, as a character. For being the Liberty Consign leader, he didn't seem all that bad beneath it all.

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Rautos Hivanar dived to escape, but not quickly enough, as the massiv object slammed down onto the backs of his legs.
Pinned, as white fire licked out towards him , Rautos could feel his blood draining down from his crushed legs, turning the compund's dust into mud.
Yes, he thought, as it began with mud, so it now ends --
The white fire enveloped him.
And sucked out from his mind every memory he possessed.
The thing that dies there a short time later was not Rautos Hivanar.

[nacht]

-How exactly did Tool (Onos, whatever) regain life?

It is kind of hinted as shown below. Apparently, Silverfox was born with the capability to undo Tellan

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Onos T'oolan made no move.

Silverfox frowned. 'What are we waiting for, then?'

He was motionless a moment longer, then he reached up and slowly drew his flint sword. 'For me,' he rasped raising the sword --

-- then releasing it, to fall to the ground at his feet.

She frowned down at the weapon, wondering at the significance of the gesture - from the warrior who was called the First Sword.

Slowly, as comprehension filled her, her eyes widence.

What, after all, I was fashioned to do ....

[Tattersail_]

serotonin, on 07 February 2011 - 10:38 PM, said:

Bauchelain the Evil, on 07 February 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

Because Udinaas didn't want Kettle to be killed and that of course would have messed wi the Azath and Ruin's ( Wither boss) plan

That doesn't resolve what I was talking about, though. Inconsistent character behavior.

Even if Wither was doing Silchas' bidding (and I'm sure he was), attempting to KILL Udinaas felt extreme and inconsistent with his previous character development. As I already explained. Just immobilizing him would have sufficed -- but instead, he outright attempts to crush his throat.

Afterall, of all the characters in their party, Udinaas was the most helpless one, aside from his foresight. Silchas could have completely ignored Udinaas running away with Kettle, then turned around once he got the finnest and snatched Kettle back with little difficulty. So why order Wither to murder Udinaas so unnecessarily? Particularly when Silchas himself was already shown to be somewhat reluctant to kill unnecessarily (e.g. makes no real attempt to kill Trull -- he could have blasted him with sorcery at any time during their dueling, not to mention when Trull went down -- and only knocks Onrack aside with sorcery instead of doing much worse just as easily... all before Kilava actually showed up and presented her threat).

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RAFO

I have no idea what that's supposed to mean.

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Tool abandoned his role as First Sword and Silverfox freed him from the Ritual

This can't be right. Silverfox never had the power to actually bring the T'lan back to life, because simply releasing them from the ritual wouldn't do that. The Logros wanted her to release them from the ritual so that they could simply be obliviated. That was made very clear in MoI.

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The Guardian didn't simply take his corpse, he brought also his soul in Mael's realm because ortherwise all the forgotten gods would have died with him. The fingers serve as anchors or somesuch

This doesn't address what I was asking. I know Hood didn't have his soul, but what difference should that really make?

The problem here is regarding how if Brys could be resurrected so simply, why can't pretty much everyone who's died in Lether since Gothos' ritual be resurrected in just about the same fashion?

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If you read it carefully QB didn't play fair (as always). he used one of his magic stones on Menandore plus Hedge's cussers plus knowing that the sisters would have betrayed each others plus his strecthed post-Icarium powers. And still Sukul Ankadu escaped. Also a case of old, ancient powerhouses being beaten by the newer, more imaginative guys

Hedge's cusser was only used to finish off one of the dragons, and the stone was only used to raise the wall of earth that initially stopped their flight. Before the cusser and after the wall of earth, Ben was launching hugely powerful waves of magic that were literally beating up three legendary dragon gods at once, if not outright killing them. Nothing imaginative about that, just brute strength, as I said.

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He gets fried by Icarium's machine

So you guess. Unless I'm not remembering correctly, it was never mentioned that Rivanar was killed by the energy, when the book deliberately made sure to mention Veed, the Assessor, and Taxilian being killed.

Regardless though, this wasn't really one I needed to ask in the post, just nevermind about it. If Rivavar isn't dead, he'll be back in a later book, same as I expect Erikson will get around to explaining the significance of the whole deal with Redmask and Drene's events in what was otherwise a seemingly unnecessary tangent to the main storyline that had no real impact on everything else that happened in Reaper's Gale.

The point with QB is why we think he is so awesome, he took on three dragons and won. He is a legend. He also took on the bridgeburners and won, albeit he did have Kalam on his side and superior intellect QB is one of the strongest Magus' on Wu, his "new" magic compared to their "older" magic was stronger. Maybe because they haven't used it for a while, maybe because they were all going to betray each other. My point is who cares? QB is awesome and I love his character!

[Tattersail_]

serotonin, on 07 February 2011 - 10:56 PM, said:

ansible, on 07 February 2011 - 10:58 PM, said:

Memories of Ice said:

'Obelisk,' Tool said. 'In the ancient Deck of Holds, it was known as Menhir. Touched by stone, mortal - Chen're aral lich'fayle - there, on your brow. I give you a new name. Aral Fayle.'

Tool names him this because of the chunk of Moon's Spawn that takes Toc's eye.

Illuyankas, on 07 February 2011 - 10:44 PM, said:

You're not remembering correctly, Rivanar basically gets his brain sucked out by Icarium's machine. Also Quick Ben versus the dragons was a case of surprising them, confusing them, them all planning on betraying each other and not working together efficently, and cussering the remaining one before it can crawl away after being gouged by the one it killed. The one that fled got killed by two Bonecasters, so Quick in effect didn't kill any of them. It's a classic case of old gets boned by underestimating new.

Oh, and RAFO = Read and find out.

You guys keep missing the point about the brute-strength thing. I never said Ben killed any of them... but simply throwing waves of magic powerful to beat up three such entites at once all by itself far exceeds anything Ben's been shown to do before.

Someone else mentioned the Bauchelain encounter, I believe? That's actually a case in point, because it stands in contrast to this situation. In that event, Ben used everything he had to simply knock out two human, unascended mages (albeit High Mages). It was stated afterwards that he didn't have a lick of anything leff to throw, which is why he had to bolt out of there.

And so from that, we go to Ben having enough brute strength to throw MULTIPLE waves of magic that can simultaneously beat up three legendary dragon gods? And then he hops out of the Refugium to Letheras and does the same thing again to Silchas Ruin?

It's a whole different level, guys. This should be obvious.


Anyway, it's obvious now that there wasn't an explanation I missed, since you're all just trying to rationalize it no better than I could. So we don't need to keep discussing it.

The difference between these two situations is his fight with Iccy and all those Edur on the Boats. He got stretched/Nastier from these