[stevenashhair]

Im about 500 pages in, first read through. When they find out Baudin is hired to protect Paran's little whorish sister, he talks about Dancer's assassination. I dont have the exact quote but he basically says theres a few people, including himself who know that Dancer was never really killed. I assume that means Kellanved was never killed either? I guess I have no idea how ascendancy works. I thought a human had to die first. So you can just ascend at anytime in life?
The word ascend has afterlife connotations in my mind, as in ascending into heaven after death. I know its not literally heaven in these books, but some kind of other realm.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

You'll find some explanations in later books but no, you don't have to die to Ascend. Ascend roughly means someone who surpasses his race's limit and sort of "ascends to a higher plane of existence".

Also while all Gods are Ascendants, not all are Ascendants are gods( the main difference is the presence of worshippers).

This post has been edited by Bauchelain the Evil: 03 February 2011 - 06:48 PM

[zenMichael]

"'It was the Rope, the patron god of assassins who possessed you. Yet your memories are --'
' Dancer's.'...'The Rope has another name. Cotillion...No-one doubted that the assassinations occurred. Both Dancer and the Emperor...murdered by Laseen and her chosen Clawmasters. What did Laseen do with the bodies? No-one knows.'
'So Dancer lived,'...'And ascended. Became a patron god in the Warren of Shadow.' - (DG, UK mmpb, p.196)

Hetan posted this quote elsewhere in this topic, felt it might be helpful for you here re: Cotillion & Shadowthrone, as it sounds like you've already passed this bit but apparently didn't catch it.

As to ascendancy, no, one does not need to die to achieve it (you'll see at least a few examples of this in DG, and might have already... I could swear by 500 pp in you should have, but if I'm wrong I don't want to point out exactly whom you'll see). In fact, I think dying usually cuts the process short (although with how malleable death is in this world, who knows if it ALWAYS does).

[stevenashhair]

I caught that when I read it, but that wasnt my question.

Found the quote: Sounds like Dancer lived and Kellanved did in fact die.

"So the Talons remain," Heboric said. "Then who commands you?"

"No one," Baudin answered. "I was born into it. Theres a handful left kicking around here or there, either old or drooling or both. A few first sons inherited.... the secret. Dancer's not dead. He ascended, alongside Kellanved- my father was there to see it, in Malaz city, the night of Shadow Moon."

In a series where dying really has no consequences, its unclear. If you die, you're either brought back by a god, or reincarnate into someone else, with no apparent rules or guidelines to how it works. Erikson hasnt really fleshed that out up to this point. Its sort of just Dues ex machina when important people die. "Oh dont worry, they will just come back as someone else in a few days." Sormo, Ganoes Paran, the Sha'ik, Tattersail.. Im sure theres more, just cant think of them. Dont get me wrong, its still one of the best series I have read up to this point, and I will be finishing the whole series. I guess this would be my one complaint up to this point, but it doesnt really ruin anything for me.

[Grief]

Don't put spoilers in thread titles please.

[zenMichael]

I don't want to say anything more JUST IN CASE, but I can say pretty darn definitively that Kellanved didn't die.

But I do hear what you're saying about the whole death/coming back thing. Paran's resurrection nearly made me stop reading GotM. And, yeah, at times it seems fairly haphazard, but that's part of the charm of the world, I think, that magic & everything else is so damned haphazard.

[stevenashhair]

My bad on the spoiler in the title. It wasnt intentional, I read the forum rules and it said anything goes for this current book and any before it. I just wasnt sure. What about the topic titled "was Felicin disfigured by the bloodflies?" That has a spoiler in the title, which btw, I stumbled across before I had read that part of the book. I didnt even know what bloodflies were. Not trying to argue or anything, just pointing it out.

[stevenashhair]

Ya totally agree with you zenmichael. At least with Paran's death, there was a written scene explaining who and why he was being brought back. And at least it was done by a god. As for the others, virtually no explanation that I can remember. But hey, its still a lot better than Wheel of time, or Goodkind's series IMO. Still very epic, and every page is readable. I have a feeling its going to get better, I hope so anyway.

[Grief]

stevenashhair, on 03 February 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

My bad on the spoiler in the title. It wasnt intentional, I read the forum rules and it said anything goes for this current book and any before it. I just wasnt sure. What about the topic titled "was Felicin disfigured by the bloodflies?" That has a spoiler in the title, which btw, I stumbled across before I had read that part of the book. I didnt even know what bloodflies were. Not trying to argue or anything, just pointing it out.

That part of the rules refers to spoilers within a thread. Titles appear on the main page and in the new threads section, which is why they need to be spoiler-free.

"Was felisin disfigured by the bloodflies?" is only a very small spoiler. It doesn't give away much about the events of the book. It's best to err on the side of caution and avoid spoilers in the title completely, but ones like that aren't going really affect someones experience with the book, the way larger spoilers can.

[stevenashhair]

Ya I agree, and ya, it doesnt give away much. But it is still a spoiler, albiet a small one, if you're someone who doesnt want to know anything that happens before you read it. Right now on the forum page you can see House of chains: a post titled "ghosts who save Heboric". And also by Bonehunters: "poison used on Kalam." I can see those without clicking on the book title, its out in the open under last topic info. I see those without going into the actual forum. So now I know Heboric is saved by ghosts and Kalam gets poisoned 2 or 3 books down the line even though I never went into those forums. Whoever runs this site should just ban spoilers in the title period. Just my two cents anyway.

[Tyr]

I had an aneurysm when Tattersail was brought back to life.

[ansible]

Spoiler

Technically, characters like Tattersail and Coltaine aren't resurrected as much as reincarnated. Paran is a good example of a resurrection. But only Tattersail's soul survives, and then it gets mixed in with a couple others in a new body. Okay, she's alive again, but it isn't really resurrection.

I think the difference between the way Paran and Coltaine come back to life is pretty cool of Erikson. Oponn and Hood intervene directly to bring Paran back, but Coltaine is saved by a murder of crows, which don't seem to be directed by any specific power other than Wickan spirits (and if there is a god/ascendant behind it, we don't see it). So that difference between something primal/natural and the active hand of the gods creates a more believable afterlife system than if everyone just reappeared at the spawn point.

[ShadowRaven]

I think it would be more accurate to say they did not die with finality, but I'm not sure whether it was ever established if they died first and were then resurrected. Below are two spoilers from later books about the event so read at your own peril, but they aren't really extremely massive as we already know the end result.

Night of Knives:

Spoiler

If memory serves me, when we see Kellanved enter the Deadhouse, he is described looking a lot more like Shadowthrone already: somewhat insubstantial and ghostly, which would indicate that he might have actually died even if their bodies were never recovered.

HoC:

Spoiler

Apsalar has Cotillion's memories, and she tells Crokus pretty early in the book that she remembers him getting stabbed, A LOT, and bleeding severely, so even Cots might have died first and then resurrected.

This post has been edited by ShadowRaven: 05 February 2011 - 11:18 AM