[Kalkin]

SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVE NOT READ RETURN OF THE CRIMSON GUARD




The title could potentially be a bit misleading as I know who he is. My question more refers to his part in everything.

In GotM, they, from Tattersail's perspective, make him out to be a bad guy. Hairlock tells her, well implies to her, that Tayschrenn caused the death of the Mage Cadre. This bugged me for a while because he was generally made out not to be bad...and I only understood it in RotCG, where it was him just deflecting the magic, and it hit the other mages...I think...'

However, he seems to be some sort of recluse...who exactly is he? I'm just opening up this thread for ideas. He's a powerful mage, one of the starting players in the Malazan Empire with Kellenvad, and is seeming to do stuff, even as Artanthos (I spell right?), through HoC I think (though I can't recall exactly off the top of my head). Then he's gone... He's mentioned, and, like in RotCG, is brought back into the story for a little, yet they talk about him 'not interfering' a lot. Why? And when did he begin indulge this curious attitude.




Please keep in mind that I have not yet read Stormwielder, in which there is a possibility that they disclose more information, especially since I highly doubt that he's actually dead. On which note, I also ask, assuming there was no more news of him in Stormwielder, what do we think his future role will be in the upcoming conflict? Assuming he's still alive, do we think he'll be there for the final battle, considering he is Drek's last follower (ya, Banaschar doesn't count), a supremely powerful mage, and 'friends' (sort of) of Ammanas and Cotillon.




Thanks for indulging my curiosity

[Seras]

I believe that Laseen ordered Tayschrenn to stand down, in order to lure out the Crimson Guard and Old Guard, and finish 'em off once and for all. I think they mentioned in RotCG that to think about Tayschrenn entering battle was the equivalent of being paralyzed. He was the mage that made numerical superiority next to meaningless, and so I doubt the CG & Talian League would have gone into battle with him on the field, especially with no mages of the same caliber (except perhaps a few of the CG Veils and Cowl).

As for his future role in things, I recall him and Shadowthrone having a discussion at the end of TBH, and it's revealed that he was Quick Ben's 'shaved knuckle in the hole'. Given this, I'm fairly certain he'll have a part to play in the finale.

[Sinisdar Toste]

Tayschrennn has always been about the long game. yet he has always been characterized differently by all the different people who meet him and observe his actions. plus, we've never got a Tay POV. it makes for a muddy picture of a man.
throughout the series he mostly plays the good Imperial High Mage, but only acts directly at pale and coral. he hasn't been interfering much since then cuz i think he started to see what laseens decisions were leading to and stopped directly supporting her goals, wanting to keep his hands clean of the inevitable succession. but the whorl was something else entirely, and as the only one around really able to challenge yathengar in terms of pure power atm, he stepped in. it seems like his actual long game has always tried to keep the interests of the empire as paramount, at least, thats what he always says.

earlier, when cowl comes to confront him, he's deep into his warren, thyr, which can be used to see possible futures, if what Corinn the BB says in NoK is true. the fact that the queen of dreams, goddess of divination, also uses thyr supports this.

what i'm saying is that as tays says to cowl, he can see every possible outcome of any action he might imagine. he must have seen the possibility of a chaos whorl. really, as soon as he realized that a convergence was coming, the possibility of a chaos whorl was real imo. when powers clash there's always the possibility of escalation, thats kind of the law lol.

as for tay, no he does not appear in SW, though there is much talk of him. nothing on his status though. RAFO.

i think he might definitely turn up in tCG. just call it a feeling

edit: also, what Erayle said, especially the old guard and CG things, though i still think that he had an idea it would backfire. he refused to intervene when her adjunct and some friends obliterated the claw, then refused to act except to stop yath from causing some kind of hell on earth.

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 21 January 2011 - 07:08 AM

[Seras]

Heh, this is what I love about MBotF, a single detail (in this case, Thyr being used for divination) can lead to a whole new perspective on things.

I do believe a re-read of a NoK is in order

[worry]

As Sinisdar Toste says, it's the "long game" that is key in understanding Tayschrenn. But that "long game" might belong as well to Kellanved and Dancer. How much Tays knows about what they wanted to accomplish through a) creating an empire and subsequently ascending. Is Tays' loyalty to the empire and seeming coldness to all else simply a necessity in carrying out their plans? Indeed how much did any of the Old Guard know? On the reread I'm doing (now at TTH), I am pretty solidly convinced that Laseen's betrayal was real as opposed to a feint, but that doesn't mean they didn't plan for it. And it's not particularly clear how much the admirals, Ameron, or Toc Elder knew. But if anyone is in the long game alongside Kel and Dancer, it's Tayschrenn (Dassem possibly knew well enough, but bowed out for his own reasons). If that makes sense.

[Hetan]

 Kalkin, on 21 January 2011 - 05:49 AM, said:

SPOILER ALERT IF YOU HAVE NOT READ RETURN OF THE CRIMSON GUARD

Assuming he's still alive, do we think he'll be there for the final battle, considering he is Drek's last follower (ya, Banaschar doesn't count), a supremely powerful mage, and 'friends' (sort of) of Ammanas and Cotillon.

Thanks for indulging my curiosity

Hmm, not sure on his being D'reks last follower. Banaschar is the last priest of D'rek - she killed all the others after all.
Now Tayschrenn presumably wasn't killed during her pogrom (the timeline is not important) either because he's good at hiding, because he is no longer one of her priests (I think there may be something to support that but I need to look it up), or she left him alive for some future purpose.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Actually he talked her in not killing him. he says so to ST at the end of TBH. BUt yeah, for all purposes he isn't a priest of D'rek anymore

[Hetan]

Ah yes! thanks for that - saves me looking it up - knew there was something about it somewhere.

[Kalkin]

Oh thanks, suppose I just forgot that bit about him leaving the priesthood, so to speak.

One more question, which I'm sure they brought up in the book, but never explicitly answered: Did Laseen leave Tayschrenn alone because she couldn't do anything against him? Or was there another reason to it?

I seem to recall something about her not being able to do anything to him, or at least not risking it...but I can't remember and it's something that has bugged me, (Him and Nok)

This post has been edited by Kalkin: 21 January 2011 - 09:19 PM

[nacht]

Tays is a curious character. But to me he just seems to be a slow starter (sort of like Mael) and generally does not want to get involved (especially in politics) (maybe a voyeur :-). He knows that "with great power comes great responsibility". I doubt that he is all knowing though, both in NoK and GotM, he does not seem to have any real effect on the events (been a while since I read NoK) . What happens if you remove his story line. I suspect that the outcomes don't change.
If I remember GotM correctly, Tattersail (and others) mistakenly though Tayschrenn tried to kill everybody. Apparently it was NightChill who was trying to do her fellow mages.

Edit: Oops, sorry he has quite a bit of effect in the GotM and MOI. How about some wild speculation! maybe he is D'rek and one of the elementals. After all Entropy (dissolution of all order) is fundamental to Nature. Banashar pining to meet him, seems somewhat like a priest praying to meet his god.

This post has been edited by nacht: 22 January 2011 - 11:35 AM

[Sindriss]

With regards to him not acting much, he explaines his choice in RCG I think, when cowls comes to kill him, or at least warn him off. In his monologue he says something along the lines of too much power creating too many possibilities, resulting in him not acting as it would interfere with reality. Obviously, it is explained much better in the books.

[Ceda Cicero]

 Kalkin, on 21 January 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

Oh thanks, suppose I just forgot that bit about him leaving the priesthood, so to speak.

One more question, which I'm sure they brought up in the book, but never explicitly answered: Did Laseen leave Tayschrenn alone because she couldn't do anything against him? Or was there another reason to it?

I seem to recall something about her not being able to do anything to him, or at least not risking it...but I can't remember and it's something that has bugged me, (Him and Nok)

I don't recall the exchange verbatim, but there's definitely a bit in NoK after the "assassination" of Kellanved and Dancer in Mock's Hold where Tayschrenn and Laseen have a very tense, very short, but very loaded conversation. Essentially he tells Laseen that he doesn't think she actually succeeded in killing the two, she insists that the story moving forward will be that she did and now she'll claim the Throne, and Tay takes a moment to calculate all of this and then hails her as the Empress. I think Tay was just a total wildcard in that convergence - Kell and Dancer weren't sure if he would act against them, for them or at all. Dancer even confronted him face to face to gauge this. On the other hand, Surly seemed to be equally clueless. The general consensus around him seems to be that no one can no what he will do - if anything - and since he's essentially a game changer who can't really be put on a leash, it's best to leave him alone and pray that if he acts, it won't be against you.

It's interesting that this facet of Tay's character as one who "holds to the long view" - which is, to my mind, fundamental to understanding him and what final role he might play - doesn't really emerge until NoK, and after that, it dictates everything about him. Reading ICE, I can't help but get the old GURPS/roleplay vibe from a lot of the original cast of characters. Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like there are some that were clearly played by ICE in the original games (I'm talking way back when they first started), and some clearly played by SE. Tay is one who it seems pretty clear was played by ICE.

Anyway, after finally finishing RotCG yesterday, I'm now of the opinion that gaining a better, richer understanding of Tayschrenn as a character might be in the top 5 reasons to read ICE's books insofar as the question of "how much do they overlap/do I need to read ICE to fully appreciate SE" is concerned. I talked all kinds of trash about Tay to my friends who are fanboys of his for so long, and could never understand why they thought he was so interesting. Now that RotCG is done, I can safely say those days are over.

This post has been edited by Ciceronian: 22 January 2011 - 03:14 PM