[Roldom]

theres mention of the jheck in the frozen wastes in this book, but they dont show the soletaken abilities of the jheck in MT, also i thought the jheck went to letheras on mass to save there god 'the pack'


im sure theres a quote somewhere about the 1st empire exploring and fighting rival tribes of none human speices and it gives a list im sure jhecks on this list


im sure theres mention that the jheck who became wolves escaped the T'lan imass when they smashed the first empire (im pretty sure the pack (who was the divers god cowering in that abandoned temple that iron bars killed ) mentioned escaping)

so how did they meet a race of soletaken that was created at the end of the ritual that destroyed the first empire?

so are they different tribes of Jheck?

[D'rek]

Roldom, on 12 January 2011 - 03:11 AM, said:

theres mention of the jheck in the frozen wastes in this book, but they dont show the soletaken abilities of the jheck in MT, also i thought the jheck went to letheras on mass to save there god 'the pack'

im sure theres a quote somewhere about the 1st empire exploring and fighting rival tribes of none human speices and it gives a list im sure jhecks on this list

I remember that, too.

im sure theres mention that the jheck who became wolves escaped the T'lan imass when they smashed the first empire (im pretty sure the pack (who was the divers god cowering in that abandoned temple that iron bars killed ) mentioned escaping)

I think that was referring to that the Jheck weren't killed by the T'lan Imass, who had come to kill the Soletaken/D'ivers in the wake of the Beast Ritual. Whether the T'lan Imass visited the Lether colony or not, the Jheck avoided being slaughtered by them.

so how did they meet a race of soletaken that was created at the end of the ritual that destroyed the first empire?

so are they different tribes of Jheck?

The HFE have a long enough history, I think explorers/settlers/whatever from the HFE came upon the original Jheck somewhere along the line. Perhaps they fought at first, but eventually the Jheck were incorporated into the HFE in some regard, with groups of them moving about with the HFE expansionism. There's many ways this could have happened, but the best way I can see this would be something like Wickans in the Malazan empire - the empire expanding to include them and groups of their warriors serving as auxiliary fighters with the empire. When the Beast Ritual comes along, and with it the collapse of the HFE, there are Jheck in numerous places, including Lether and the ice wastes of Korel. The ones in Lether were affected by the Beast Ritual, becoming Soletaken wolves, and somehow creating The Pack. Since they would have been in the same region as the human HFE settlers, perhaps they fled to the ice wastes in fear of the coming of the T'lan Imass. The Jheck in Korel do not appear to have been affected by the Beast Ritual and an enclave of them survived there. There very well may have been plenty of other enclaves of Jheck across the HFE, but we either don't know of them or they've died out.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 12 January 2011 - 03:26 AM

[Aptorian]

Wasn't the Jheck in SW soletaken? I admit I don't remember reading them transform at any point exactly but how else are they supposed to have been tracking the Crimson Guard? The Avowed are superhuman, they move faster and don't need rest. The Jheck must have been soletaken.

This post has been edited by Jenisapt Rul: 12 January 2011 - 04:39 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

kallor has also encountered a few jheck in his day. on a battlefield that is also strewn with FA and iirc some form of TTT, he recalls jheck bodies. the jheck seem to be an ancient people. and could potentially be very far flung.

[D'rek]

They're not described as being much different from humans, though, right? They'd essentially be another less-civilzed human culture or very-close-to-human offshoot? Like the Faraed, Rhivi, Wickans, etc etc?

[MTS]

Quote

Wasn't the Jheck in SW soletaken? I admit I don't remember reading them transform at any point exactly but how else are they supposed to have been tracking the Crimson Guard? The Avowed are superhuman, they move faster and don't need rest. The Jheck must have been soletaken.

We don't really know. You might think so, as Jheck apparently translates as 'standing wolves' according to MT, and we've seen them fight in their human forms before. ICE (heh) explains how they kept up with them though:

Quote

Tal and Ruk jogged onward. They picked up their pace from their normal league-sustaining trot of pursuit, closing the distance between them and their quarry.

The Avowed aren't exactly experts at crossing tundra, and are ill-prepared, unlike the Jheck:

Quote

Tal looked to Ruk, who nodded his assent. They found three men and one woman, all four ill dressed for the cold, shivering, the leathers under their cloaks soaked in sweat that froze into frost and ice before Tal’s eyes.How could these ill-prepared wretches have forestalled them time and again? But the spokesman, a muscular squat fellow, dark-skinned, was sitting on his haunches calmly awaiting them. Tal squatted down with him. ‘Greetings.’

As for their heritage, I think they're an offshoot of Imass.

Quote

She turned to the old man. Why the reluctance? His shielded gaze was turned aside. His hair blew free. Did the man not feel their old enemy’s biting cold?For the first time in the hunt Tal felt the tightening in her throat that comes with the cornering of a snow bear or a giant tusker. Who were these strangers?
‘Whispers of what?’ she breathed.
‘Of the ancestral Hold. Tellann.’
‘Impossible!’ burst out Hemtl. ‘That cannot be.’
‘Not impossible,’ answered Tal, thoughtful. ‘The Elders still walk the land. Logros, Kron, Ifayle. The path is still open – we have just lost the way.’

They do seem ancient too, as they show knowledge of the FA:

Quote

her. His furred hood and ivory eye-shield obscured his face, but she could well imagine his boyish sulk. He motioned to the tracks scuffing the snow. ‘Still they remain ahead. They must be of the demons of old, the Forkul.’
‘The Forkul would not run,’ said a third voice and Tal suppressed a jerked start of surprise – Ruk had done it again. She turned: there he stood, arms and legs all crooked, in his hides of white, hair whiter still, the pale silver of frost. ‘At least not from us,’ he finished.

This post has been edited by MTS: 12 January 2011 - 05:26 AM

[Roldom]

as always MTS im left in awe of your quote fu

MTS, on 12 January 2011 - 05:22 AM, said:

As for their heritage, I think they're an offshoot of Imass.

Quote

She turned to the old man. Why the reluctance? His shielded gaze was turned aside. His hair blew free. Did the man not feel their old enemy's biting cold?For the first time in the hunt Tal felt the tightening in her throat that comes with the cornering of a snow bear or a giant tusker. Who were these strangers?
'Whispers of what?' she breathed.
'Of the ancestral Hold. Tellann.'
'Impossible!' burst out Hemtl. 'That cannot be.'
'Not impossible,' answered Tal, thoughtful. 'The Elders still walk the land. Logros, Kron, Ifayle. The path is still open – we have just lost the way.'

so the CG remind these jheck of imass? of Tellan the warren made by the ritual that immortalised the imass, not to mention its said the imass wont fight the CG

put with the unexplained discovery that ussi has while having a heart to hand moment with bars did the CG vow some how tap into the imass ritual?

[MTS]

Roldom, on 12 January 2011 - 05:51 AM, said:

as always MTS im left in awe of your quote fu

MTS, on 12 January 2011 - 05:22 AM, said:

As for their heritage, I think they're an offshoot of Imass.

Quote

She turned to the old man. Why the reluctance? His shielded gaze was turned aside. His hair blew free. Did the man not feel their old enemy's biting cold?For the first time in the hunt Tal felt the tightening in her throat that comes with the cornering of a snow bear or a giant tusker. Who were these strangers?
'Whispers of what?' she breathed.
'Of the ancestral Hold. Tellann.'
'Impossible!' burst out Hemtl. 'That cannot be.'
'Not impossible,' answered Tal, thoughtful. 'The Elders still walk the land. Logros, Kron, Ifayle. The path is still open – we have just lost the way.'

so the CG remind these jheck of imass? of Tellan the warren made by the ritual that immortalised the imass, not to mention its said the imass wont fight the CG

put with the unexplained discovery that ussi has while having a heart to hand moment with bars did the CG vow some how tap into the imass ritual?

Well, I think that's the foreshadowing ICE is going for, drawing a link between the vow and the Ritual of Tellann. There's definitely similarities there, and people have betrayed similar shock and sympathy when they've looked into the Vows of both groups. I'm a bit fuzzy on the details, but what the First Throne originally on Quon Tali and moved, or was it moved to Quon Tali? Then again, K'azz couldn't have found the FT before Kellanved...hmm.

Anyway, I think there's an element of Tellann, or something like it, in the CG Vow. There's only 'whispers' remember, so I think it's just similar in nature to the Imass Ritual, and not actually drawing on Tellann itself, as I don't think the Bonecasters of the Logros would have allowed that. Still, might explain why the 4th Company was in Assail...

[Roldom]

it was 7Cs not quon tali

[MTS]

The T'lan Imass were involved in the Quon conquests, so he can't have found it on Seven Cities. Or at least it's far less likely.

ETA - Ah! Found it. HoC:

Quote

'I understand, Trull Sengar, and it is a valid point you make. The Nameless Ones serve the Houses of the Azath. Logros believed that, had a priest of that cult taken the First Throne, the first and only command given to the T'lan Imass would be to voluntarily accept eternal imprisonment. We would have been removed from this world.'
'So the throne was moved.'
'Yes, to a continent south of Seven Cities. Where it was found by a mage - Kellanved, the Emperor of the Malazan Empire.'

It's sort of immaterial though, since I doubt the First Throne has anything to do with it. The thought of it being on Quon Tali and the CG trailing echoes of Tellann just clicked in my head though.

This post has been edited by MTS: 12 January 2011 - 01:39 PM

[Abyss]

Short version: there are Jheck all over the place and not all of them are quite the same. One of the B&KB novellas even refs a seagoing tribe iirc. It would appear that the Leth Jheck are the only tribe we've seen that are 'infected' by shapeshifting.

Think in terms of the Barghast, who are spread across Genabackis and divided into various and different tribes, clans and groups, even tho they are all Barghast; the T3 who have de/evolved into the Teblor, Tarthenal and others; the Edur who scattered post Tiste invasions and ended up on Leth, 7C and Genabackis at some point.

- Abyss, diasporic. ...ew that sounds dirty...

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 12 January 2011 - 03:04 PM, said:

Short version: there are Jheck all over the place and not all of them are quite the same. One of the B&KB novellas even refs a seagoing tribe iirc. It would appear that the Leth Jheck are the only tribe we've seen that are 'infected' by shapeshifting.

Think in terms of the Barghast, who are spread across Genabackis and divided into various and different tribes, clans and groups, even tho they are all Barghast; the T3 who have de/evolved into the Teblor, Tarthenal and others; the Edur who scattered post Tiste invasions and ended up on Leth, 7C and Genabackis at some point.

- Abyss, diasporic. ...ew that sounds dirty...

Funny you should compare them to the Barghast:

MoI page 266 said:

'Barghast, yes? Extraordinary, isn't it, that such people can be found on other continents as well, calling themselves by the same name and practising, it seems, virtually identical customs. What vast history lies buried and now lost in their ignorance, I wonder?'

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Wait, when (where) does Iron Bars kill the D'ivers god?

[Aptorian]

Midnight Tides, it's called The Pack.

[IgnatiusKruppe]

Also, it makes sense that the Jheck on Lether may have avoided the Imass if they had taken to occupying the Frozen Wastes. Doesn't exactly sound like the kind of place the Imass would want to be