[D'rek]

The Korel of Stonewielder has a lot of differences with that of Blood Follows. Even if you take the SW reference of two mages left unmolested by The Lady, there is still widespread knowledge and worship of other gods in Moll, malazan forces in Theft and more to reconcile. I'm re-reading BF and am going to drop all the relevent quotes I find into here, and maybe we can try and reconcile the discrepencies. The easiest way would be to say that Theft may be something of an exception to the rest of Korel, and since SW doesn't really visit it that remains a possibility, but I think there'll be more to discuss beyond that simplistic solution.

---

Selected BF Quotes:

Quote

Dully and Kreege discussing politics:

"Seljure's [king of Moll] always been wobbly on the throne, ever since Stygg fell to the Jheck and he balked at invading. Now we've got a horde of savages just the other side of the strait and all Seljure does is bleat empty threats."
"Savages ain't quite on the mark. It's a complicated horde, them Jheck. You've got a pantheon chock-full of spirits and demons and the like - and the War Chief answers to the Elders in everything but the lay of battle. Now, he might well be something special, what with all his successes - after all, Stygg fell in the span of a day and a night, and Hood knows what magery he's got all on his own - but if the Elders--"
"Ain't interested in that. Just be glad them Jheck can't row a straight course in the Lees. I heard they burned the Stygg galleys in the harbours - if that bit of thick-headed stupidity don't cost the War Chief his hat of feathers, then those Elders ain't got the brains of a sea urchin, That's all I'm saying. It's Seljure who's wobbly enough to turn Lamentable Moll into easy pickings."
[...]
"A king with some spine is what we need, that's all."
"That's what they said in Korel when that puffed up Captain, Mad Hilt, usurped the throne, though pretty soon no one was saying nothing about nothing, since they were all dead or worse."

This one's just funny because there's the Lady term but in reference to Oponn

Quote

Dully and Kreege to Emancipor:

"So, Mancy, looking for work again, eh? Had yourself a run of Lad's Luck with your employers, it seems. Lady fend the poor sod fool enough to take you on - not that you ain't reliable, of course."
"Maybe Hood's made you his Herald, ever thought of that? It happens, you know. Not many diviners cracking the Deck these days, meaning there's now ay to tell, really. The Lord of Death picks his own, don't he, and there ain't adamned thing to be one for it."

Quote

[...] the round's centre, near the Fountain of Beru, its trickling beard of briny froth splashing desultorily into a feather-clogged pool.

Quote

Emancipor to a guard:

"Hood's Herald! That's me, heh heh! A joke! Hood's truth - I mean, I swear by the Sisters! Health and Plague divvy my plate - I mean, fate - come back here, man!"

Quote

[...] a half-dozen candles set on ledges opposite the cloak rack - follower of D'rek, by the look of the gilded bowl on a ledge below the candles. He stepped closer and looked into the bowl, to see a writhing mass of white worms, faintly pink with some poor animal's blood.

Quote

Emancipor:

"And before that I was a cockswain on the able trader, Searime, for twenty years doing the Stygg run down the Bloodwalk Strait."
"Ahh, and this ship and her captain?"
"Sixty fathoms down, off Ridry Shelf."

Quote

"[Travel] concerns you, Mister Reese?"
"Not at all. An incentive, sir. Now that the seas have subsided, and the blood-toll is no more, well, I itch for sea-spray, a pitching deck, rolling skylines, the tip and tumble and turn - is something wrong, sir?"
"No, not at all. I simply prefer travelling overland. I take it you can read, or did you hire someone?"
"Oh no, I can read, sir. I've a talent for that. I can read Moll, Theftian and Stygg - from the chart-books, sir. Our pilot, you see, had a taste for the mead-
"Can you scribe in these languages as well, Mister Reese?"
"Aye, sir. Both scrying and scribing. Why, I can read Mell'zan!"
"Malazan?"
"No, Mell'zan. The Empire, you know."

Quote

Dead Sekarand's Tower was less than a decade old, yet already abandoned and known to be haunted
[...]
In the days when the Mell'zan Empire had first threatened the city-states of Theft - mostly on the other coast, where the Imperial Fist Greymane had landed his invasion force, coming close to conquering the entire island before being murdered by his own troops - in the days of smoke and threatening winds, Sekarand had come to Lamentable Moll. Calling himself a High Sorceror, he had contracted with King Seljure to aid in the city's defense, and had raised this structure as his spar of power. What followed then was confused, and remained so ever since, though Guld knew more details than most. Sekarand had raised liches to keep him company within these confines, and they'd either driven him mad, or murdered him outright - Sekarand had flung himself, or had been thrown, from these very merlons, down to his death on the cobbles below.
[...]
the Mell'zans - whose presence on Theft remained in but a single, down-trodden port on the northwest coast with half a regiment of jaded marines

Quote

Lamentable Moll's known for its sorcerors, its diviners and readers, its warlocks and well-sounders, seers and the like, but it's mostly small fish - nobody's ever claimed Theft to be an island of high civilization. In Korel it's said a demon prince runs a merchant company, and in the old city-swamps of the lowbeds the undead are as common as midges. Glad I don't live in Korel.

Quote

(Emancipor looking at Bauchelain's crossbow)

His memory swept him back to his youth, on the battlefield that would in legend be known as Estbanor's Grief, where the rag-tag militias of Theft - before each city found its own king - had thrown back an invading army from Korel. Among the Korelri legions were soldiers who carried Mell'zan weapons - each superbly made and superor to anything local. This was such a weapon, made by a master smith, consructed entirely of hardened, tempered iron - maybe even the famous D'Avorian Steel - even the stock was metal.

Quote

[...] his voice thing and ragged - the story went that a Drek assassin's dagger had come near to opening the man's throat a dozen years back - but Tulgord Vise, Mortal Sword to the Sisters, had survived, while the assassin hadn't.

[...]

TV: "I have crossed swords with Hood's Herald, do you forget?"
Guld: "[the above] it's a claim he's made for twenty years."

Quote

the king had shown his fear, not just of the killer in the city, but of the dark storm brewing in Stygg, and the rumbles from the Korelri Compact to the south.

Quote

Moll's own history has its eras of slavery and castration

Quote

Bauchelain:
"Many conjectures abound on the subject. I myself concur with the sage Kulp Elder's theory that necromancy occupies the threshold of Hood's Warren [...]

Quote

(to Emancipor)
"Mmhmm. For example, your wife of thirty years..."

Quote

" 'Tis a good thing, the appeasement agreed with the Storm Riders. Passage on the seas should not cost more than a jar or two of blood - we can all agree on that, I'm sure."

This post has been edited by D'rek: 09 January 2011 - 06:03 AM

[Sinisdar Toste]

this episode in lamentable moll and the events it references in stygg... is there anyway to calculate how long before SW they take place? this is before emancipor reese joins the terrible twosome, and since then they crossed Seekers Deep and apparently travelled the length and breadth of genebackis and then some. we haven't seen them since MoI.

now even that short (or however long it is) amount of time probably isn't enough to see any significant change in korel politics, but maybe enough to see the jheck pushed back to the ice wastes? the knowledge and worship of other gods in theft is a stickier problem, unless the original malazan incursion on their peninsula wiped out the lady's cult there. maybe ipshank even had a hand in it? also, the BH dock and resupply in theft with absolutely no trouble, from the mare or the lady, so it could be that theft has been trading with the outside world for longer than we think.

[T'renn]

Did the Bonehunters resupply on Theft ?
if they did, it's a wonder the Marese didn't sink them.... then again, they had Sin, a High Mage of Telas

Maybe the Lady doesn't have such a strong hold on Theft, maybe it was stolen from her (hence the name)

[Sinisdar Toste]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 08 January 2011 - 10:09 PM, said:

Did the Bonehunters resupply on Theft ?
if they did, it's a wonder the Marese didn't sink them.... then again, they had Sin, a High Mage of Telas

Maybe the Lady doesn't have such a strong hold on Theft, maybe it was stolen from her (hence the name)

they did indeed. the relevant quotation from RG:

Quote

The fleet was making sail for Theft, a paltry kingdom torn to tatters by Malazan incursions and civil war.

there's then the story of the theftian warlord maiming an entire army by cutting off the index finger of each soldiers weapon hand.

what this points to, i think, is a situation in theft radically different from elsewhere in korel. there are rival warlords, there have been malazan incursions, maybe more than one. would the marese have even sailed? why? for a transport fleet carrying a renegade army off the edge of the map? they'd get there just in time to see the bonehunters disappear into the distance.

[D'rek]

Oh yeah, I'd forgotten all about the 14th stopping in Theft.

Sinisdar Toste, on 09 January 2011 - 12:01 AM, said:

Quote

The fleet was making sail for Theft, a paltry kingdom torn to tatters by Malazan incursions and civil war.

there's then the story of the theftian warlord maiming an entire army by cutting off the index finger of each soldiers weapon hand.

what this points to, i think, is a situation in theft radically different from elsewhere in korel. there are rival warlords, there have been malazan incursions, maybe more than one. would the marese have even sailed? why? for a transport fleet carrying a renegade army off the edge of the map? they'd get there just in time to see the bonehunters disappear into the distance.

I can't quote it right now but that's from chapter 13 of RG.

---

As far as when BF is, it's hard to say. tLoLE follows directly on it, but we don't know how long later MoI is and tHD is 4 years after BF, but has no reference to other points in time. But the Sekarand passage would give the idea that BF is roughly a decade after the Malazans first began invading Theft.

We can potentially combine this with SW to do some timeline fitting. SW makes pretty clear that the first Korel invasion is the only one with heavy gains, so the invasion mentioned in the Sekarand passage I think would be that. Something along the lines of the 6th army invading Fist while the 8th (or 13th?) army under Greymane invaded Theft. The later "invasions" brought reinforcements to forces on Korel but not much else. So the initial invasion makes gains in Theft and Fist, but then Greymane is dumped by his command, the 6th goes rogue in Rool but the 8th/13th in Theft stays Malazan, albeit being pushed back by civil wars from the Theftian city-states against the Malazans and themselves.

It'd be interesting if Rool was exposed to the Malazan pantheon when they first invaded, too, but that those gods were afterwards abolished again when the 6th converted...


Aside from that stuff, I find this idea of a pesudo-peace worked out with the Stormriders very interesting

Quote

"[Travel] concerns you, Mister Reese?"
"Not at all. An incentive, sir. Now that the seas have subsided, and the blood-toll is no more, well, I itch for sea-spray, a pitching deck, rolling skylines, the tip and tumble and turn - is something wrong, sir?"
"No, not at all. I simply prefer travelling overland. I take it you can read, or did you hire someone?"
"Oh no, I can read, sir. I've a talent for that. I can read Moll, Theftian and Stygg - from the chart-books, sir. Our pilot, you see, had a taste for the mead-
"Can you scribe in these languages as well, Mister Reese?"
"Aye, sir. Both scrying and scribing. Why, I can read Mell'zan!"
"Malazan?"
"No, Mell'zan. The Empire, you know."

Quote

" 'Tis a good thing, the appeasement agreed with the Storm Riders. Passage on the seas should not cost more than a jar or two of blood - we can all agree on that, I'm sure."

Could be a Theft-exclusive case and/or be temporary and no longer in effect by SW, but nevertheless very interesting!

This post has been edited by D'rek: 09 January 2011 - 06:06 AM

[MTS]

Imperial High Mage Tayschrenn, on 08 January 2011 - 10:09 PM, said:

Did the Bonehunters resupply on Theft ?
if they did, it's a wonder the Marese didn't sink them.... then again, they had Sin, a High Mage of Telas

Maybe the Lady doesn't have such a strong hold on Theft, maybe it was stolen from her (hence the name)

The Marese are on the other side of the continent, they may not have been able to attack with a big enough fleet from so far away, assuming they would have attacked in the first place. In SW they gather every ship they can and still don't engage the Malazans before they round the Skolati coastline. Still, looking at the SW map it baffles me exactly where they would have resupplied, as they would have had to enter the Pirate's Sea to reach a major city, as there are none on the coast of Reacher's Ocean. Grest perhaps.

Anyway, I can't remember exactly where it is, but I recall reading something about the Lady tolerating the Marese sea-worship, likely because it helps against the Riders. I can't see how that would apply to Theft, as there seems to be worship of a broad kind - D'rek, Hood, Soliel/Poliel, the QoD, Fener etc. I don't hold to the argument that the Lady might not have the power to enforce her worship on Theft, particularly as it's right between the Wall and Rool - the chief bastions of her power - and she can reach as far south as Jourilan. It could simply be an inconsistency between authors.

EDIT - Actually, I think it might be tolerated. This is when she's talking to Ussu:

Quote

‘I allowed you Malazans to land because you brought a renewed vitality to the true faith. You have strengthened me in so many ways. There is nothing like a challenge to inspire and confirm a faith. And so I welcome you again.’

So it could be that the Malazans brought their religion with them when they invaded Theft and it was allowed to stick.

This post has been edited by MTS: 09 January 2011 - 07:39 AM

[D'rek]

MTS, on 09 January 2011 - 07:31 AM, said:

Anyway, I can't remember exactly where it is, but I recall reading something about the Lady tolerating the Marese sea-worship, likely because it helps against the Riders. I can't see how that would apply to Theft, as there seems to be worship of a broad kind - D'rek, Hood, Soliel/Poliel, the QoD, Fener etc. I don't hold to the argument that the Lady might not have the power to enforce her worship on Theft, particularly as it's right between the Wall and Rool - the chief bastions of her power - and she can reach as far south as Jourilan. It could simply be an inconsistency between authors.

I don't really think The Lady enforces her worship directly, though, ie through godly or magical means. She has a whole religious order, churches, priests, etc. and there's plenty of people who don't worship her and aren't immediately smoted down (the natives of Rool, the Army of Reform, the Sea People, etc.). I think her direct, magical intervention is only something applied to mages, regardless of faith, though clearly she can power up her priests and most devout followers like any other potent goddess. From a secular stand-point, the Malazans were almost entirely beaten out of Theft. Religiously speaking, the pantheon they brought with them stuck around amongst the City-states, and I guess the constant civil unrest of powers was not great for priests of The Lady to convert everyone back to their monotheism (or maybe they were doing better in city-states other than Moll).

[MTS]

D, on 09 January 2011 - 05:02 PM, said:

MTS, on 09 January 2011 - 07:31 AM, said:

Anyway, I can't remember exactly where it is, but I recall reading something about the Lady tolerating the Marese sea-worship, likely because it helps against the Riders. I can't see how that would apply to Theft, as there seems to be worship of a broad kind - D'rek, Hood, Soliel/Poliel, the QoD, Fener etc. I don't hold to the argument that the Lady might not have the power to enforce her worship on Theft, particularly as it's right between the Wall and Rool - the chief bastions of her power - and she can reach as far south as Jourilan. It could simply be an inconsistency between authors.

I don't really think The Lady enforces her worship directly, though, ie through godly or magical means. She has a whole religious order, churches, priests, etc. and there's plenty of people who don't worship her and aren't immediately smoted down (the natives of Rool, the Army of Reform, the Sea People, etc.). I think her direct, magical intervention is only something applied to mages, regardless of faith, though clearly she can power up her priests and most devout followers like any other potent goddess. From a secular stand-point, the Malazans were almost entirely beaten out of Theft. Religiously speaking, the pantheon they brought with them stuck around amongst the City-states, and I guess the constant civil unrest of powers was not great for priests of The Lady to convert everyone back to their monotheism (or maybe they were doing better in city-states other than Moll).

Poor choice of words on my part, having the power to enforce worship on others borders on omnipotent. I simply meant we haven't seen any evidence that she directly...discourages the worship of other gods on Theft, particularly the QoD (priests use warrens too), and there's no evidence that the Korelans or the Roolians or whoever haven't tried to stamp out the foreign worship and convert them to the Lady (although I can't see there not being missionaries and such). Now, it's not to say that it doesn't exist because we haven't heard of it, that would be a facile argument, but my point was I don't think it's because she or the priesthood don't have the power to stamp it out, but it's merely one of disinterest.

[D'rek]

MTS, on 10 January 2011 - 12:07 AM, said:

D, on 09 January 2011 - 05:02 PM, said:

MTS, on 09 January 2011 - 07:31 AM, said:

Anyway, I can't remember exactly where it is, but I recall reading something about the Lady tolerating the Marese sea-worship, likely because it helps against the Riders. I can't see how that would apply to Theft, as there seems to be worship of a broad kind - D'rek, Hood, Soliel/Poliel, the QoD, Fener etc. I don't hold to the argument that the Lady might not have the power to enforce her worship on Theft, particularly as it's right between the Wall and Rool - the chief bastions of her power - and she can reach as far south as Jourilan. It could simply be an inconsistency between authors.

I don't really think The Lady enforces her worship directly, though, ie through godly or magical means. She has a whole religious order, churches, priests, etc. and there's plenty of people who don't worship her and aren't immediately smoted down (the natives of Rool, the Army of Reform, the Sea People, etc.). I think her direct, magical intervention is only something applied to mages, regardless of faith, though clearly she can power up her priests and most devout followers like any other potent goddess. From a secular stand-point, the Malazans were almost entirely beaten out of Theft. Religiously speaking, the pantheon they brought with them stuck around amongst the City-states, and I guess the constant civil unrest of powers was not great for priests of The Lady to convert everyone back to their monotheism (or maybe they were doing better in city-states other than Moll).

Poor choice of words on my part, having the power to enforce worship on others borders on omnipotent. I simply meant we haven't seen any evidence that she directly...discourages the worship of other gods on Theft, particularly the QoD (priests use warrens too), and there's no evidence that the Korelans or the Roolians or whoever haven't tried to stamp out the foreign worship and convert them to the Lady (although I can't see there not being missionaries and such). Now, it's not to say that it doesn't exist because we haven't heard of it, that would be a facile argument, but my point was I don't think it's because she or the priesthood don't have the power to stamp it out, but it's merely one of disinterest.

Ah, I see what you mean. At the absolute tops, BF is a few decades before MoI, too, so the Korel would be facing worse and worse shortages like in SW, so they wouldn't want to send away any fighters from the Wall. And Rool would be recovering/adjusting to the Malazan invasion and treason so they'd be too busy pushing out the new religions from themselves to send over missionaries. Stygg has just been invaded by the Jheck and the other nations are all too far.

I'm starting to get in my head a crazy theory of the appeasement with the Stormriders briefly alluded to being basically the Stormriders not attacking ships from Theft once the Malazans invaded and suppressed The Lady's religion (and talked about it with Greymane). Their enemy is The Lady, so they wouldn't have any beef with Theft if she wasn't being worshipped there anymore, right?

[Sinisdar Toste]

thats a reasonable assumption, lacking only some sort of central authority to formalize that deal with the riders. of course, it could just be an implied agreement between the two sides, and the riders stopped attacking the coast of theft once the cult of the lady started waning in influence.

[D'rek]

Sinisdar Toste, on 10 January 2011 - 03:56 AM, said:

lacking only some sort of central authority to formalize that deal with the riders.

Greymane?

[Sinisdar Toste]

D, on 12 January 2011 - 04:57 AM, said:

Sinisdar Toste, on 10 January 2011 - 03:56 AM, said:

lacking only some sort of central authority to formalize that deal with the riders.

Greymane?

/facepalm

yeah like that...

man i would have loved some greymane pov's in SW

edit: other than the stonewielding scene ofc

This post has been edited by Sinisdar Toste: 12 January 2011 - 05:13 AM

[MTS]

That's an interesting thought. Greymane's communication with the Stormriders resulted in them backing off of Theft, and since IIRC we don't have any evidence of renewed Stormrider assaults on Theft (only Malaz, and that's extenuating circumstance), it could still stand.

Agree about the relative lack of Greymane POVs, I would've liked more details about the previous campaigns in Theft and Rool. The whole chronology's still a little fuzzy in my head (but you can't have everything I guess).

[Abyss]

D'rek - i'm in awe of your quote fu and would heap rep upon you if that function was working.


(the) Timeline (is not important) wise one could speculate thet BF is far enough back that the Lady's influence may have not extended as far, or waned at some point due to other factors including possibly the Malazan invasion.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 12 January 2011 - 03:16 PM, said:

(the) Timeline (is not important) wise one could speculate thet BF is far enough back that the Lady's influence may have not extended as far, or waned at some point due to other factors including possibly the Malazan invasion.

Well, the common thread is Emancipor and B&KB. In MoI Emancipor is said to have been with the duo for 3 years and counting. The whole Sekarand business means BF is at most about a decade after the Malazan invasions first started. There's also NoK which says the Korel invasion's first landings were roughly half a decade prior to NoK. So putting all that together it'd come out as something like:

1111 - Emancipor born
1129 - Emancipor is 18, soldier, Estbanor's grief
1130 - Emancipor is 19, marries, begins sailing (twenty years as a sailor, during which his kids were born)
1149 - Initial landings in Korel (half a decade before NoK, according to NoK)
1150 - Emancipor is 39, finishes sailing
1154 - GotM Prologue (Paran is 12)
1154 - NoK - The Return
1160 - BF - Emancipor is 49, he's been married about 30 years, his oldest kid is about 14, and he joins B&KB
1163 - GotM (Paran about 20)
1163/64 - MoI - B&KB&E in Darujhistan/Capustan
1164/65 - tHD - Emancipor is 53, has been with B&KB for 4 years, his son is about 18 (4 years after BF)

The years could all be shifted up or down together, but that spacing of events satisfies all the information as best I can figure. SW would be somewhere in the 1166-1169 range, I'd peg it as about late 1167. The next question is whether there are references in SW to the prior Korel invasions that would contradict any of this. SW re-read here we go!

[Sinisdar Toste]

you're a marvel d'rek, i would rep you if i could. very nice timeline (that doesn't matter )

[Soulessdreamer]

Where did you get the dates from? I can't recall any in the novellas. or are they based off of text?

Wouldn't a simpler explination of the descepancies be that BF comes at a point in time beyond TCG where the malazans are only another half remembered moment of distorted history in fists past along with the lady.

TTFN

[MTS]

Soulessdreamer, on 22 January 2011 - 08:37 AM, said:

Where did you get the dates from? I can't recall any in the novellas. or are they based off of text?

Well, they're based off of the dates in the text (like the GotM prologue and MoI), and we can work back based on other references. For example, we know when BF happens because we know when MoI happens and there's a mention in that of how long he's been with the group, so if he'd been with them for three years in MoI, and MoI was in 1163, we know he joined up with them in 1160.

Quote

Wouldn't a simpler explination of the descepancies be that BF comes at a point in time beyond TCG where the malazans are only another half remembered moment of distorted history in fists past along with the lady.

TTFN

Mancy hadn't met B&KB before Blood Follows, yet he's been trudging around with them for years by MoI, so not really.

[Soulessdreamer]

Wow I need to do a reread cause I can't remember them appearing in MoI at all

TTFN

[D'rek]

Eugh... SW reread is ongoing and it is very clearly written as if the initial invasions were 20 to 30 years prior to the events of SW. If it weren't for that throwaway line in NoK about the first invasions being half a decade before, I could probably use some backwards logic to make this work, but it's starting to look pretty certain that I'll have to declare something or other to be a Harllo Jr.