[Aptorian]

They are totally different characters portrayed in very different ways. One is very psychological the other very physical.

I'd have to say the Joker simply because of the extraordinary acting done by Ledger but that doesn't make Bane any less scary. The guy oozes violence.

[Ulrik]

IMO is more scary that he oozes violence and still seems totally calm. And he speaks with voice of Gandalf with bronchitis.  

[worry]

I just saw this film, it was pretty good I think.

[Defiance]

I loved the movie.

I don't think anyone will be able to top Ledger's performance as Joker, but Tom Hardy did an excellent job as Bane. Comparatively:

Spoiler

Bane is the worst thing that Gotham has ever faced (in Nolan's vision, that is). He not only puts Batman out of service for nearly five months, he also manages to hold millions of people hostage for several months. Him and his cronies are so effective in their plan that they manage to ward off any rescue attempts until Batman returns.

The Joker leaves a big mess in his wake, but ultimately there's no real path to what he does. That is, of course, the point, but it also means he wasn't able to achieve as much as Bane.

To take the copout answer, it's not really fair to compare the two. If Nolan had been silly enough to try to put someone like, say, The Riddler in the movie, then there could have been some comparisons between two psychological villains. As others have stated, though, Bane is physical (although he is very intelligent).

Spoiler

There is definitely a psychological aspect to this movie, which is the result of Bane dislodging the disc in Batman's back, but it's more of a personal journey for Batman than anything else. It was really great to see a superhero movie that confronted what happens when a hero gets old, and what it really takes to keep on fighting. The whole message about needing to be afraid of death in order to fight, and just the stuff about rising in general, was really well done. I disagree about needing to see Bruce fighting people in prison, scrounging for food, and all of that. Bane specifically wanted to keep Bruce alive to see Gotham die. Seeing Bruce fight would have been unnecessary in my eyes, because his ascent out of the pit was not a physical journey but a spiritual one.

Oh, and yes, I know Watchmen confronts the idea of heroes getting old. But I thought that movie was shit, it was supposed to be a human take on heroes just like in the graphic novel, and yet we were treated to ridiculous, over-the-top 300 action. The only thing that movie did well was getting rid of the giant killer squid.

[Jade-Green Pig-Hog Swine-Beast]

Holy actual shit.


That is all.


EDIT:

@Apt: portrayed

This post has been edited by Wagged Parthenogenesis Jibe: 22 July 2012 - 04:38 PM

[polishgenius]

Would it surprise anyone that I had some nitpicks?

My main one though was

Spoiler

they should have fucking stuck with killing Bruce. Such an emotionally cheap cop-out.

I will say though that Anne Hathaway was awesome.

[Stalker]

polishgenius, on 22 July 2012 - 10:55 PM, said:

Would it surprise anyone that I had some nitpicks?

My main one though was

Spoiler

they should have fucking stuck with killing Bruce. Such an emotionally cheap cop-out.

I will say though that Anne Hathaway was awesome.

Spoiler

I agree with you on that one. Would have been a better ending, but had to see that change coming as soon as Alfred gave the speech about his dream for Bruce. An actual death really drives home the point that Batman is a symbol, not a person. I guess the point is still made with the changing of the guard, so to speak, but not to the same effect.

[Defiance]

Spoiler

I have mixed feelings about killing Bruce. The problem with killing him is that it would have been very predictable. I think most people went into the movie expecting him to die. By allowing him to live, it shows that you don't have to give your life in order to truly make change and become a symbol/ideal. On the other hand, well, predictable isn't always a bad thing.

Anne Hathaway was awesome. I was very nervous about her being in the movie, but she nailed it. I was so relieved that she wasn't called Catwoman and there weren't lots of stupid feline jokes. The same thing for the Robin character. Right as he was knocking on Bruce's door I was positive that he was going to be Robin. The fact that Nolan actually made "Robin" a fantastic character is something. Although, from the ending of the movie, it seems like he'll be donning Batman's outfit, which isn't a complaint. Robin's outfit was always fucking stupid, and to me it's much better with him being Batman's successor rather than some cheesy partner in justice.

[polishgenius]

Defiance, on 23 July 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

Spoiler

I have mixed feelings about killing Bruce. The problem with killing him is that it would have been very predictable. I think most people went into the movie expecting him to die. By allowing him to live, it shows that you don't have to give your life in order to truly make change and become a symbol/ideal. On the other hand, well, predictable isn't always a bad thing.

Spoiler

My issue wasn't that he didn't die, it's that they 'killed' him and then yoinked the rug.

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 23 July 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

Defiance, on 23 July 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

Spoiler

I have mixed feelings about killing Bruce. The problem with killing him is that it would have been very predictable. I think most people went into the movie expecting him to die. By allowing him to live, it shows that you don't have to give your life in order to truly make change and become a symbol/ideal. On the other hand, well, predictable isn't always a bad thing.

Spoiler

My issue wasn't that he didn't die, it's that they 'killed' him and then yoinked the rug.

Spoiler

The theme of the 3rd film is "hope". The point is that Bruce/Batman died to fully redeem Batman from his status at the end of TDK, saving the city he loved. But WE don't want Batman to die. I especially didn't want Batman to die. But beyond that, having him die and stay dead removes HOPE from the ending...regardless of Blake taking up the cowl (or becoming Nightwing or Robin or whatever)...Gotham's hope was Batman saving them from the worst villain they's encountered...but OUR hope...the audience hope was in the fact that Alfred hadn't failed, and in the end Bruce chose to allow the mantle of protector to pass to someone else and have a life...but to do that he had to die (as Bruce Wayne as well, so no one would look for him) in everyone's eyes...but our hope lies in the fact that he GETS to have a normal life.

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 23 July 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Spoiler

The theme of the 3rd film is "hope". The point is that Bruce/Batman died to fully redeem Batman from his status at the end of TDK, saving the city he loved. But WE don't want Batman to die. I especially didn't want Batman to die. But beyond that, having him die and stay dead removes HOPE from the ending...regardless of Blake taking up the cowl (or becoming Nightwing or Robin or whatever)...Gotham's hope was Batman saving them from the worst villain they's encountered...but OUR hope...the audience hope was in the fact that Alfred hadn't failed, and in the end Bruce chose to allow the mantle of protector to pass to someone else and have a life...but to do that he had to die (as Bruce Wayne as well, so no one would look for him) in everyone's eyes...but our hope lies in the fact that he GETS to have a normal life.

Spoiler

I'm not really sure that was 'the' theme at all - it was an element, sure, but personally, the thing I took most from it was redemption. And Bruce didn't need to live to redeem himself.
That's secondary though; as I say, my gripe isn't with the story itself, it's with the telling. If we'd known all along he wasn't really going to die, it wouldn't have bothered me, but asking us to mourn him then showing he isn't dead seconds later was cheap manipulation; Nolan trying to have his cake and eat it.
I had the exact same problem with the end of the last season of Doctor Who...

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 23 July 2012 - 02:01 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 23 July 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Spoiler

The theme of the 3rd film is "hope". The point is that Bruce/Batman died to fully redeem Batman from his status at the end of TDK, saving the city he loved. But WE don't want Batman to die. I especially didn't want Batman to die. But beyond that, having him die and stay dead removes HOPE from the ending...regardless of Blake taking up the cowl (or becoming Nightwing or Robin or whatever)...Gotham's hope was Batman saving them from the worst villain they's encountered...but OUR hope...the audience hope was in the fact that Alfred hadn't failed, and in the end Bruce chose to allow the mantle of protector to pass to someone else and have a life...but to do that he had to die (as Bruce Wayne as well, so no one would look for him) in everyone's eyes...but our hope lies in the fact that he GETS to have a normal life.

Spoiler

I'm not really sure that was 'the' theme at all - it was an element, sure, but personally, the thing I took most from it was redemption. And Bruce didn't need to live to redeem himself.
That's secondary though; as I say, my gripe isn't with the story itself, it's with the telling. If we'd known all along he wasn't really going to die, it wouldn't have bothered me, but asking us to mourn him then showing he isn't dead seconds later was cheap manipulation; Nolan trying to have his cake and eat it.
I had the exact same problem with the end of the last season of Doctor Who...

Spoiler

The theme of "hope" comes from the lips of Nolan and his screenwriter themselves. So it was the theme. Just as Fear was the theme for the first and Chaos the theme for the second. You also imply (using the word "redemption") that Batman did something wrong and NEEDS redeeming. He doesn't. Sure he needs the city to see him as a hero again, but that's not redemption.

And PG, no offense, but there is a whole segment early on in the film with Fox talking to Bruce about the autopilot feature of The Bat and how it would require fixing to work. That was the key that told me right then that whatever happened Bruce would live. It's not cheap manipulation at all, and the "resurrection" aspect of comic characters has been around for nearly a century. He never meant to hoodwink the audience who were paying attention...there is no less than 3 things (including the above-mentioned autopilot conversation) that lead us to believe that Bruce is alive. Plus, add the fact that no one...not even Christopher Nolan would kill Bruce Wayne on the big screen...no one. If you thought that was going to happen, then I'm afraid you don't know comic movies or their point. It's about heroes, not martyrs...If Batman dies (even saving Gotham) then you have removed the fact that he is a hero who overcomes evil and have made him simply a martyr instead...and while a martyr is honorable and even sometimes useful...it serves little purpose for the future.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 23 July 2012 - 02:17 PM

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 23 July 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

Spoiler

The theme of "hope" comes from the lips of Nolan and his screenwriter themselves. So it was the theme.

Good for them, but I'm not going to judge the film from Nolan's words outside of it.

Quote

Spoiler

You also imply (using the word "redemption") that Batman did something wrong and NEEDS redeeming. He doesn't. Sure he needs the city to see him as a hero again, but that's not redemption.

Spoiler

He might not have done anything wrong but his attitude suggests that he certainly thinks so. No to mention there's also Gordon, Selina, Alfred, and the other police chief dude who's name I can't remember.

Quote

Spoiler

And PG, no offense, but there is a whole segment early on in the film with Fox talking to Bruce about the autopilot feature of The Bat and how it would require fixing to work. That was the key that told me right then that whatever happened Bruce would live.

Spoiler

And there's another section later on when Bruce says something about the autopilot and Fox says something about 'autopilot? that's what you're there for' and then makes specifically clear as he hooks the bomb up that there isn't one. You can't even say that he's lying to people so that they'll think he's really dead because iirc at that point he's talking to Selina, but even if he's not, I feel they should have nodded to the viewer some way.

Quote

Spoiler

It's not cheap manipulation at all, and the "resurrection" aspect of comic characters has been around for nearly a century.

Spoiler

That doesn't make them a good thing. Especially since a great many of those are done for bad reasons - either commercial, or because a writer really couldn't resist writing the favourite character of their youth even though they happen to be dead.

Quote

Spoiler

If you thought that was going to happen, then I'm afraid you don't know comic movies or their point.

Spoiler

That's beneath you. We're (as ever it seems) arguing interpretations here, don't make out like yours is the undisputed and only one. What comic book movies (and indeed comic books themselves) mean change from writer to writer, just for starters.

Quote

Spoiler

It's about heroes, not martyrs...If Batman dies (even saving Gotham) then you have removed the fact that he is a hero who overcomes evil and have made him simply a martyr instead...and while a martyr is honorable and even sometimes useful...it serves little purpose for the future.

Spoiler

I'm not sure why you think a hero can't be a martyr. Giving your life for your goal seems about as heroic as it gets (if it's a good goal, obviously). And it happens quite frequently in comics - that they're later undone doesn't undo the original sacrifice, especially if the hero - or the writer, for that matter - weren't expecting the person to come back.

[QuickTidal]

Spoiler

I didn't say that martyrdom wasn't heroic...only that it removes the feature of Heroism in which anything can be done to ensure future heroism or safety to the masses the martyring protects...so you have a heroic ACT in martyrdom, but a hero finds a way to continue to be one and doesn't only see the one avenue that results in their death as a result of an act. So yeah, martyrs can be heroic...but a hero like Batman is about a continuing presence, a future.

Spoiler

As to what's beneath me. Not really. As harsh as my statement was, I'm sorry but a comic movie doesn't exist in which the hero dies (at least fully dies). If that's not clear to you in this genre then I maintain you don't know the genre well enough. This isn't anime, or anything else where the bleakness of the hero dying after saving the world, a bittersweet ending occurs. Superhero Comics are about hope, and about fighting the good fight, and about the undying nature of heroes...yes there is a dark aspect to some of them (especially in the Nolan-verse) but the end result should always be "hopeful". This is the same reason that IRON MAN nearly sacrifices himself in THE AVENGER'S but doesn't die...he can't die...you can't kill off the hero in a superhero movie. You simply can't do it..and to do it would be trite, and filmic suicide for a studio. Like I said, I'm sorry it sounded harsh, but it;s the reality.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 23 July 2012 - 04:25 PM

[McLovin]

Going Wednesday to see it.

Batman Begins was on TV last night, so DVR'd it, hopefully will get to watch before Wed.

[polishgenius]

QuickTidal, on 23 July 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Spoiler

I didn't say that martyrdom wasn't heroic...only that it removes the feature of Heroism in which anything can be done to ensure future heroism or safety to the masses the martyring protects...so you have a heroic ACT in martyrdom, but a hero finds a way to continue to be one and doesn't only see the one avenue that results in their death as a result of an act. So yeah, martyrs can be heroic...but a hero like Batman is about a continuing presence, a future.

Spoiler

But Bruce didn't carry on being a hero, and Batman/Robin/Nightwing carried on anyway regardless of the survival of Bruce, who they all thought was dead anyway.

Quote

Spoiler

As to what's beneath me. Not really. As harsh as my statement was, I'm sorry but a comic movie doesn't exist in which the hero dies (at least fully dies). If that's not clear to you in this genre then I maintain you don't know the genre well enough. This isn't anime, or anything else where the bleakness of the hero dying after saving the world, a bittersweet ending occurs. Superhero Comics are about hope, and about fighting the good fight, and about the undying nature of heroes...yes there is a dark aspect to some of them (especially in the Nolan-verse) but the end result should always be "hopeful". This is the same reason that IRON MAN nearly sacrifices himself in THE AVENGER'S but doesn't die...he can't die...you can't kill off the hero in a superhero movie. You simply can't do it..and to do it would be trite, and filmic suicide for a studio. Like I said, I'm sorry it sounded harsh, but it;s the reality.

Spoiler

Personally I think it's got more to do with the fact that Iron Man 1 and 2 made boatloads of money and another is already scheduled, but maybe I'm cynical. After all a team franchise like X-Men does it, because doing so doesn't cripple the earning potential of the next film (and that's why Xavier didn't stay dead - because he's the second most iconic face in the franchise and people would want him). But maybe I'm a cynic.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 23 July 2012 - 06:08 PM

[QuickTidal]

polishgenius, on 23 July 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 23 July 2012 - 04:25 PM, said:

Spoiler

I didn't say that martyrdom wasn't heroic...only that it removes the feature of Heroism in which anything can be done to ensure future heroism or safety to the masses the martyring protects...so you have a heroic ACT in martyrdom, but a hero finds a way to continue to be one and doesn't only see the one avenue that results in their death as a result of an act. So yeah, martyrs can be heroic...but a hero like Batman is about a continuing presence, a future.

Spoiler

But Bruce didn't carry on being a hero, and Batman/Robin/Nightwing carried on anyway regardless of the survival of Bruce, who they all thought was dead anyway.

Quote

Spoiler

As to what's beneath me. Not really. As harsh as my statement was, I'm sorry but a comic movie doesn't exist in which the hero dies (at least fully dies). If that's not clear to you in this genre then I maintain you don't know the genre well enough. This isn't anime, or anything else where the bleakness of the hero dying after saving the world, a bittersweet ending occurs. Superhero Comics are about hope, and about fighting the good fight, and about the undying nature of heroes...yes there is a dark aspect to some of them (especially in the Nolan-verse) but the end result should always be "hopeful". This is the same reason that IRON MAN nearly sacrifices himself in THE AVENGER'S but doesn't die...he can't die...you can't kill off the hero in a superhero movie. You simply can't do it..and to do it would be trite, and filmic suicide for a studio. Like I said, I'm sorry it sounded harsh, but it;s the reality.

Spoiler

Personally I think it's got more to do with the fact that Iron Man 1 and 2 made boatloads of money and another is already scheduled, but maybe I'm cynical. After all a team franchise like X-Men does it, because doing so doesn't cripple the earning potential of the next film (and that's why Xavier didn't stay dead - because he's the second most iconic face in the franchise and people would want him). But maybe I'm a cynic.

Spoiler

No one else dies in the AVENGERS either...regardless of the high stakes that someone COULD have. Even the one person who (though not a superhero) DOES die (Agent Coulson)...doesn't REALLY die either. My point is more that you could not name me a superhero movie in which said hero dies and stays dead. That film does not exist, nor should it.

And yes, You are certainly a cynic PG.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 23 July 2012 - 06:43 PM

[champ]

Spoiler

When Alfred was telling Bruce of his dream for him, I turned to my mate and said that is how they will end it and as the film reached it's climax I didn't change my mind, I felt that there was enough clues throughout the film that pointed towards this. That's why the reversal at the end didn't piss me off!

Nolan nailed it for me again, I thought that the 2nd film was slightly better but that was only because Heath absolutely owned that performance

What a trilogy, I cannot wait to watch all three films back to back in bluray.

[Coco with marshmallows]

Just a point but.......

Spoiler

why are you all so convinced that the ending was "real"? Personally I think that the ending could just as easily be interpreted as Alfred's wishful thinking, and that Bruce IS dead.

just my 0.02.......

[Illuyankas]

Spoiler

I won't be able to see this movie for at least a fortnight, all these spoiler boxes are killing me