[KingTeholBeddict]

In my mind there is no such thing as a "irrelevant" subplot in Erikson's writing.
With the information we have now it may seem that way, but when we get more info, it will probably not be unimportant nor irrelevant.

In my opinion.

[zenMichael]

and, hey, glad it worked for other people. as someone who, as i've said before, enjoyed the first 1/3 of TtH more than the last third, and loved it completely all the way through, i get that different things appeal to different people. for me, i was totally fine w/not seeing anybody we knew (except trull, i guess) from before, i just found both the letherii and the tiste edur empire to be godawfully boring (Edur) and obvious (Letherii). I've gone into detail on this on the MT forum, so I won't repeat, but I did love some things (Tehol/Bugg, of course, Pung/Shurq/etc., and the whole idea of bringing down an empire through destroying their gold standard is just AMAZINGLY original, I thought, for a fantasy novel, especially) and some of the stuff that confused me (Kettle & everything related to the Azath there) should, I hope, become clearer now that I've read RG and can keep everybody straight (I hope).

Just really dreading slogging through the bits with the Sengar bros. & the Beddict bros. that aren't Tehol. Ugh. Thankfully, I agree, the writing is gorgeous. Just find those storylines all like the lowest points of the books (though, again, I realize others liked it & I'm not trying to ruin it for anyone by stating my opinion).

[End of Disc One]

No offense to everyone else, but this topic seems full of apologists who feel the need to defend Erikson and Toll the Hounds. A lot of the threads in TtH seem pretty damn irrelevant in the overall plot of the series. Of course I could always be proven wrong with ICE's Darujhistan novel, and hopefully I am. TtH is still a good book but I would definitely argue that a lot of it is irrelevant.

[Ceda Cicero]

End of Disc One, on 16 December 2010 - 08:19 PM, said:

No offense to everyone else, but this topic seems full of apologists who feel the need to defend Erikson and Toll the Hounds. A lot of the threads in TtH seem pretty damn irrelevant in the overall plot of the series. Of course I could always be proven wrong with ICE's Darujhistan novel, and hopefully I am. TtH is still a good book but I would definitely argue that a lot of it is irrelevant.

Again, to echo worrywort's excellent point, I think this is true if you are operating on a "narrow, reductive version" of relevance. It's true that TtH has a much more meandering style (in terms of scope, prose and plot development) than previous installments, and as such certain segments may feel irrelevant... I'd be curious to hear what you consider to be the "overall plot of the series." The Crippled God arc? If that's the case then we can throw out a LOT of text.

There's a difference between what's relevant and what's interesting. If you don't find Cutter's subplot and the evocation of theme therein interesting and prefer to skim that's your perogative and farbeit from me or anyone to browbeat over it. But it's not irrelevant.

[zenMichael]

Ciceronian, on 16 December 2010 - 08:37 PM, said:

Again, to echo worrywort's excellent point, I think this is true if you are operating on a "narrow, reductive version" of relevance. It's true that TtH has a much more meandering style (in terms of scope, prose and plot development) than previous installments, and as such certain segments may feel irrelevant... I'd be curious to hear what you consider to be the "overall plot of the series." The Crippled God arc? If that's the case then we can throw out a LOT of text.

Right, very much the point I was trying to make when I said DG is in many ways "irrelevant," or at least something that could've been summed up (as many, many other "important" points in the history of Burn land have been) in a few paragraphs in a different book. TtH is a Dickensian tale of two cities, meandering through both their streets and outliers at a time of great import for both, but it's still about the people that make up the blood that pumps through their veins. That is the "plot," so to speak. I think irrelevant is such a bad term for it. Skippable? Maybe, with a slight refresher if stuff here comes up later. Works better as a book outside of the main series? Arguable. But what is "relevance" when the point is the lives of people within the world? Though it strikes me as odd, I can totally see how this book wouldn't work for a lot of people (though I would argue the pace slows down no more here than it did for the first half of RG), but that doesn't mean it doesn't "work." I didn't care for MT, but structurally I think it works really well and I would never argue that just because I find it a bit tedious it's "irrelevant." Anyway, I dunno. Feels like this is way too much time arguing this point rather than just reading the books.

[King Bear]

I'm sure that if Crokus doesn't turn up in TCG (and it seems a stretch that he will), he will be important to ICE's Daru novel and all those slow scenes of character developement will be vindicated.

Unless... Crokus's only purpose in ICE's Daru novel is EVEN MORE character development


Well, at least he'll end up the most developed character in the Malazan universe, if also the most pointless one

This post has been edited by Bombur: 09 February 2011 - 10:33 AM

[Creox]

Bombur, on 09 February 2011 - 10:31 AM, said:

I'm sure that if Crokus doesn't turn up in TCG (and it seems a stretch that he will), he will be important to ICE's Daru novel and all those slow scenes of character developement will be vindicated.

Unless... Crokus's only purpose in ICE's Daru novel is EVEN MORE character development


Well, at least he'll end up the most developed character in the Malazan universe, if also the most pointless one

Well, having read TcG we now know the answer to one of those , eh

I enjoyed the crokus plot line much better than the cutter persona.

[Harvester]

You should spoiler that.

---


Thanks for the negative rep, sir.

I thought even rafo is considered spoilerific now.

This post has been edited by Harvester: 07 April 2011 - 06:06 PM

[worry]

I agree with you in general, and was kinda irked by the "now that we've read TCG" line in what is clearly an earlier forum. But the post itself isn't actually spoilery, since it's inherent that reading TCG will let one know which characters appear and which don't. But as far as spoilers go, it's always better safe than sorry, so your intent was good.

[Harvester]

Well, yeah okay. Thanks.

[Fereydoon]

Not read through the whole thing yet but I agree (not very strongly) but agree with the sentiments of the original poster. Sometimes i don't care about the characters just simply their role in the plot. I mean a little background as to why they are how they are is fine but I don't really want the whole thing - Karsa Orlong hugely excepted, though.

[Kanese S's]

I honestly don't get how one could find Crokus' return to Darujhistan and attempt to go back to what he had before to be irrelevant. It's all set up at start of the series. The parts of TtH I didn't particularly enjoy reading were actually the Nimander/Clip sections, until more started happening. Early on, I'd be all "Ah damn, I have to read about more wandering Tiste Andii kids and this asshole TA Clip before I can get back to Darujhistan." Maybe I'm just sentimental in some ways, but I really really enjoyed the Crokus/Challice parts, because of reflections on how their lives have been irreversibly changed from what they were at the start of GotM, and their struggle against that, only to realize it's futile. It also sets up Crokus to kill Gorlas, which was awesome.

[Abberon]

The problem that MANY, MANY, MANY people have with the series, and one of the reasons so many of the less dedicated abandon it, is that there are so many story arcs that branch out and don't seem to really follow any common direction with one another. It's frustrating as a reader to go on giant new tangents about menial characters and huge stretches of pontificating/ meandering when there's already dozens of plots and subplots we're trying to follow. Having Crokus return in TTH could have been skipped entirely. All he really did was provide a setting in which the climax of the novel occurs. The Challice/Murillio/Gorlas balogna could have been explored in a Darujhistan novel instead of one of the final volumes of an incredibly expansive and complex series.

Interestingly I've been having the same argument in another thread:

http://forum.malazan...00&gopid=866206&

[Cedz]

I don't necessarily think Cutter's plotline was irrelevant, but I did find it somewhat disappointing. Especially as his initial return to Darujhistan and his awesome confrontation with Rallick started so well. I was looking forward to his interaction with his old friends considering his gained experience in the wider world and the skills he has acquired in the killing arts. Instead we get a pretty boring relationship with Challice and limited interaction outside of that other than the duel. I would have liked to see him clash with the local assassins guild to showcase that, although he might not be in the same league as some of his Ascendant colleagues, he was obviously extremely competent in terms of mortal ability (as was briefly shown when he faced Rallick and Gorlas).

In terms of TTT as a whole, I kinda wish Erikson could have taken the plot from OST and worked it into this book while taking out some unnecessary storylines. That might have been a bit too much for one book though.

[Johnny Phoenix]

I agree with Cedz, relevant or not, Cutters plotline was just boring. But my problem isn't with his plot, it's with him. He is one of the most unlikable character in the entire series. He is a selfish, juvenile, pussywhipped brat and I was really hoping someone would have killed him in a brutally painful and gory way. His entire life has revolved around chasing tail and the amount of bitching and groaning he does over pathetically trivial problems made me hate him. He leaves a comfortable life, surrounded by great friends, in an awesome city, because of a crush on a girl he met like three days earlier. He spends his time in HoC and TB annoyingly depressed because Apsalar would not put out. When he comes back to Darujhistan he snubs the people that care about him most, he is a total douche to Scillara and continues to complain about petty nonsense throughout the book. In TtH he is upset that things have changed... OH COME ON!!!! I was really hoping that TtH would be a coming of age novel for him, but he is no more mature in it than he was at the end of DG.

[Puck]

Have any of you who complain about Crokus in TtH ever left a place you call home only to come back later to find that, you know, things have moved on and you're not needed?Of course, it's the natural order of things, but for one person this kind of revelation is, well, it's kinda crushing and one starts to look for ways to ptove that yes, I still belong here, digging up old things the head should know will go nowhere but the heart refuses to acknowledge.. but ultimately this chase will bring nothing but pain.

And THAT is shown brilliantly in Crokus's storyline. It's not about coming of age, but about coming home and finding that it's not home anymore.

[Macros]

Personally I took the cutter story as the total opposite

He returns to Daru and nothing has changed whilst he hqs become a somewhat broken,jaded young man. With his world experience and what he's seen he can't just settle back into things, he's been part of some big events and the mundane life of a petty thief to a muddling fence has lost its alure, he has grown up and he has changed dramatically. For the worse imo

[Puck]

Why do people keep misinterpreting my posts?

What you say is not the opposite, but an affirmation of my post. People change, and so did both Cutter and the people in Darujhistan

[Kanese S's]

And his discovery that after all he's been through, and the changes, however minor, that there have been in Darujhistan, that the city
he's returned to can never live up to the way it is in his memory.

He's seen too much, he has changed as a result of his experiences outside his native city. And, in some ways, he is no longer as blissfully naive as he once was, he has lost his innocence. Though the city of blue fire hasn't changed all that much, there are blemishes that he used to be blind to that he now sees clearly. Against the Darujhistan in his memories, the real thing couldn't hope to compete.

[Macros]

I saying basically NOTHING has changed in Darujistan.
(barring missing people) the change is almost entirely in crokus/cutter, and his new perspective, so he sees Daru differently, hence his troubles reintergrating to his old life.