Malazan Empire: Pros, Cons, and Questions - Malazan Empire

Jump to content

  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

Pros, Cons, and Questions Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Khellendros 

  • Saboteur of High House Mafia
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 7,298
  • Joined: 14-August 07

Posted 06 December 2010 - 10:11 AM

I finished reading Stonewielder yesterday and thought I'd give my thoughts on it, as well as give a few opinions/questions on events within the book which aren't clear enough to me but which someone else here might be able to clear up.

I'll start by saying that, in terms of writing quality, it was good. Solid. In fact, it was quite impressive that this was the same person as had written RotCG, which, though I don't hate it, certainly struck me as the lowest-quality read of any Malazan book. ICE has improved immeasureably in terms of characterisation and description. However, having said that, SW also struck me as being unfinished. It's a big ask to flesh out an entirely new landmass, with its own distinct peoples, regions, and problems, but this was also a fantastic opportunity - and, at first, ICE didn't disappoint. The early build up was great, the situation in Korel was something that no one had even guessed at and yet it seemed wholly believable.

But the resolution left me feeling underwhelmed. I know it's a staple of the Malazan books to leave questions unanswered, but whereas SE does so whilst still being able to leave you feeling satisfied, ICE hasn't quite got this knack. The questions he leaves are ones I, as the reader, felt should have been resolved within the book. ICE's books are different to MBotF. They do not follow on in the same way to each other, they are far more standalone novels, and, as such, they need to feel more fleshed out and fully formed. This is 'A Novel of the Malazan Empire' - not 'The Malazan Empire - Part 3'. And, as we can be pretty certain that we won't be seeing Korel to the same extent ever again, I really felt we'd left it too soon, having only just got around to exploring it. On that note:

PROS:

- Korel: A fantastic, vividly realised continent/sub-continent/group of small islands. Everything we expected, and yet entirely surprising at the same time. ICE does a good job at showing why it is that we've seen so few natives of Korel, as well as weaving a complex socio-political setup, with the Fistian natives ruled by the remnants of the Malazan hierarchy - a closed aristocracy - with various other tiny states inhabiting the islands (I smiled at the name 'The Jourilan Empire', when it is in fact such a tiny insignificant speck in the world - further evidence of the closed nature of Korel society), and all in fearful respect of the Korelri whom they all seem to resent but acknowledge as necessary to their continued safety. Then there was the lack of magic in Korel and the highly intriguing Cult of the Blessed Lady.

- The Stormwall: I swear I got colder just reading about the Stormwall. The ice, the freezing water pounding incessantly against the walls, the cold halls and dungeons and towers, the prisoners and the Stormguard - it was a magnificent construction by the author. The only slight point I'd make is that it seemed unrealistic to have Hiam running from one tower to another all the time, these are enormous distances after all. Why not design some sort of transportation system, like a cable car powered by prisoners turning the levers?

- The Stormguard: No matter how arrogant and holier-than-thou they got, you couldn't help but feel sorry for the poor misguided fools, tricked into thinking they were doing all this for the safety of the land. The interaction between Hiam and Quint was great, allowing us to see two sides of the same coin. Quint the traditionalist, Hiam the progressive (though still entirely bound by his religious fervour and thus blind to truly progressive notions). As a fighting force, you really got the sense that the Stormguard could hold their own with anyone, and considering the conditions they put up with, it wasn't surprising. The Lady's Blessing/Wrath was also a great power-up.

- The Malaz 6th Army: Whereas in earlier books we've seen an army only go pretend-renegade (Dujek's), and another still serving the Empire in another way (The Bonehunters), here is finally a truly renegade Malazan army. You really got the sense from ICE that they've fallen far from their high military standards (unsurprisingly given that they've fought no campaigns for over a decade and generally just bully the local populace - the only sensible military tactics come from a non-Malazan, Borun), but every so often ICE allows you a glimpse of the Malazans they used to be, and the shame and regret that on occasion takes hold, as in a scene between Ussu and Enesh-jar. You had to pity them in some ways - no longer Malazans, but certainly not of Korel either. That they were just as confused was brought out fantastically by ICE, when he has them ironically speaking of the Malazan army as 'foreigners' and 'invaders'.

- Ussu: Whenever he wasn't putting his hand in someone's chest, you got the sense that Ussu was, actually, an alright dude. Because of that, I would say that he is ICE's most Erikson-like character - the greyest of greys. Whereas you admired his resistance to the Lady's calls, his friendship with Borun, his attempts to remind others they were still Malazan, his obvious intelligence and his somewhat resigned weariness, you couldn't help but be disgusted by the things he resorted to in order to cling on to his access to magic. I loved the way he attempted to convince himself that he was no torturer, and failing in the attempt.

- Leoman: Well, it was just awesome to have Leoman back, wasn't it?

- Manask: He was genuinely funny, even if it was at times just basic physical humour. A great character, and a great subversion of what we normally imagine when we think 'master thief.'


CONS:

- Ivanr and the Army of Reform: Started interestingly - a pacifist Toblakai. But quickly we got into Kyle from RotCG territory - a character caught up in and being led by events without having any influence on them until, helpfully, being told exactly what to do and when to do it. Ivanr just did not strike me as the leader that he was supposed to be. And his continued questioning and complaining just got tiring. Don't like the Army? Then leave, no one was actually stopping you. Incidentally, Kyle worked so much better as a secondary character.

- Bakune: This was really disappointing, because it started with so much promise. I loved the way we're introduced to a young Bakune dreaming of moving on to bigger and better things, and then, twenty years later, he's still in the same job. The interaction with Karien'el was also really good, the two worked well as a pairing. But then, as with Ivanr, he starts getting led along by the nose by other characters. This is his investigation, and I would have liked to see him work it through to its conclusion - which he never ends up doing. Indeed, he just kind of fades away from the story.

- Suth: Boring, boring Suth. I get it, he's meant to be just a normal, regular-Joe soldier, but it doesn't make for a great read, unfortunately. It might have been different if Suth actually had a personality, but he doesn't. He's not funny, or reckless, or clever in any way, he doesn't ask any pertinent questions of others which move the story along. Always surrounded by more interesting characters that you actually wanted to hear more from, any scene could have been done just as easily, and better, without him in it.

- Greymane: Yeah, a con. Why do we not learn more about Greymane's past and motivations in a book which, ostensibly, revolves around him? Why do we hardly see him after the first part of the book? It's almost as if he's forgotten about by the author, then 'oh yeah, he's got to go and break the Wall'. The plot really does revolve, and everything changes, because of his actions. Such a momentous change calls for far more background detail than we get. I just felt we never truly got who Greymane was, why this responsibility was given to him, etc.

- The Stormriders: Erm, so what were they? Surely, surely in this book of all of them we should have found out. It was crying out for someone to have a coversation with one of them and for us to learn about them in more detail. But nothing, aside from a couple of skirmishes.

- Kiska's Journey: Mostly because she didn't have a clue as to what she was doing most of the time, which irritated me. But also, and I admit this is probably more a personal irritance, because it bore no relation to the rest of the novel, which was a bit odd considering everything else was so Korel-focused.


QUESTIONS/COMMENTS:

- First, the big one, and the main reason why I feel the book feels unfinished: Who/what was the Blessed Lady? At first I thought it was the Crippled God by another name, but then I realised that it wasn't. Because you see the Lady at the beginning, this putrid, fish-scaled giant. So clearly she was originally of the sea, which makes sense as to why the Stormriders were her enemy from ages past. It seems to me that she came across pieces of the Crippled God on Korel, and used them to her own ends - setting herself up as a goddess through their power and at the same time protecting herself from the Stormriders. But what happened to her? Is she gone? We don't know. What was she originally? We don't know. What was her beef with the Stormriders? We don't know.

- Who put on Martal's armour after her death? I may have missed this.

- Why did the Stormriders save Rillish? Because he was a nice guy? Who was he to them though?

- If Nok had taken a vow never to set foot on land, why do we see him on land in House of Chains?

- I enjoyed the little one-line mentions of Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, and Ruthan Gudd :hulk:

- So what was Mallick Rel's motivation in sending an army to Korel if they were just going to pull out again, as it seems they do at the end? Strikes me that he didn't do it out of the goodness of his heart. I don't think you can explain it as Mallick's ties to Mael, because those were severed in RotCG. And Mallick never appeared to me as one who was in the loop when it came to the larger, world-changing picture. Does Mallick really care if the Stormwall comes down or not? I got the impression he gave Greymane command because he's a pragmatist, and Greymane was someone who knew the land, as did Rillish, and had a vested interest in coming back (by which I mean revenge against his usurpers, not the Stonewielder thing). Surely Mallick doesn't care if Korel is freed of the Lady or not, he just wants the lands under Imperial control and more coins going into the Imperial coffers. Plus a successful campaign would do wonders for a new emperor. But we never really get an explanation as to why the army was sent, other than to teach the 6th Army a lesson. But was that really it? I find it hard to believe.

Probably loads more things, but this post is long enough already methinks :)
"I think I've made a terrible error of judgement."
2

#2 User is offline   Sciz 

  • Corporal
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 33
  • Joined: 25-March 10

Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:43 PM

Where are the mentions of Bauchelain and Broach? I must've missed that
1

#3 User is offline   champ 

  • Omnipotent Overseer of the Universe
  • Group: Team Quick Ben
  • Posts: 2,482
  • Joined: 21-October 09
  • Location:Newcastle, UK

Posted 06 December 2010 - 04:52 PM

View PostSciz, on 06 December 2010 - 04:43 PM, said:

Where are the mentions of Bauchelain and Broach? I must've missed that


Someone talks about mages and the lady stopping them from using their powers... they then mention that she strangely let 2 mages use their power referring to our star duo... Obv worded very different but summing it up!

Tehol said:

'Yet my heart breaks for a naked hen.'
0

#4 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

  • Dead Serious
  • View gallery
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 3,851
  • Joined: 14-July 07
  • Location:The C-Hood

Posted 06 December 2010 - 06:27 PM

View PostKhellendros, on 06 December 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:

QUESTIONS/COMMENTS:

- First, the big one, and the main reason why I feel the book feels unfinished: Who/what was the Blessed Lady? At first I thought it was the Crippled God by another name, but then I realised that it wasn't. Because you see the Lady at the beginning, this putrid, fish-scaled giant. So clearly she was originally of the sea, which makes sense as to why the Stormriders were her enemy from ages past. It seems to me that she came across pieces of the Crippled God on Korel, and used them to her own ends - setting herself up as a goddess through their power and at the same time protecting herself from the Stormriders. But what happened to her? Is she gone? We don't know. What was she originally? We don't know. What was her beef with the Stormriders? We don't know.

The way i figured it was that the Lady, or Shrukasmil, was simply a large fragment of the CG that gained it's own personality and sense of self as it grew and festered in korel. note in the prologue that she calls whatever is in the black box, "flesh of her flesh" meaning that they come from the same body. then at the end of the book, we see that same box being carted back to the CG by Skinner (Btw, iron bars voice is now and forever more that of superintendent chalmers). I could be wrong but the way that the natives, like Gheven and the sea folk, kept referring to her as an invader seemed to me that she was a result of the CG's calling down.

alternatively, it could very well be that she was a relative goddess of the CG, but from the same realm and therefore sharing kinship with his bloody pieces. recall way back in GotM when kruppe is reading of the fall of the CG and how 'many things were born and many released'. well, two of those things could be the lady and her nemesis from her home world, the stormriders.


- So what was Mallick Rel's motivation in sending an army to Korel if they were just going to pull out again, as it seems they do at the end? Strikes me that he didn't do it out of the goodness of his heart. I don't think you can explain it as Mallick's ties to Mael, because those were severed in RotCG. And Mallick never appeared to me as one who was in the loop when it came to the larger, world-changing picture. Does Mallick really care if the Stormwall comes down or not? I got the impression he gave Greymane command because he's a pragmatist, and Greymane was someone who knew the land, as did Rillish, and had a vested interest in coming back (by which I mean revenge against his usurpers, not the Stonewielder thing). Surely Mallick doesn't care if Korel is freed of the Lady or not, he just wants the lands under Imperial control and more coins going into the Imperial coffers. Plus a successful campaign would do wonders for a new emperor. But we never really get an explanation as to why the army was sent, other than to teach the 6th Army a lesson. But was that really it? I find it hard to believe.

as someone mentioned elsethread, mallick rel may be satisfied with korel being open for trade once more. he strikes me as a practical man and oryan a patient one, so with that temperance i could see mallick going to korel for no other reasons than to punish the 6th army and take down the stormwall and the lady at the same time.


There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

- Oscar Levant
1

#5 User is offline   Khellendros 

  • Saboteur of High House Mafia
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 7,298
  • Joined: 14-August 07

Posted 07 December 2010 - 10:10 AM

Quote

note in the prologue that she calls whatever is in the black box, "flesh of her flesh" meaning that they come from the same body.


It is possible that the 'flesh of her flesh' bit is a lie. She could just be saying it in order to easier convince that first Lord Protector to vow himself to her.


I have thought of another question though. More than once, ICE has a character wonder why there are so few high-ranking Stormguard women - but this is never explained as far as I remember, although the way it was put across in the book it sounded like it would be something significant.
"I think I've made a terrible error of judgement."
0

#6 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

  • Dead Serious
  • View gallery
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 3,851
  • Joined: 14-July 07
  • Location:The C-Hood

Posted 07 December 2010 - 05:47 PM

could be that women are resistant to the fanticizing effect of the lady, look at faradan sort
There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line.

- Oscar Levant
0

#7 User is offline   D'rek 

  • Consort of High House Mafia
  • Group: Super Moderators
  • Posts: 14,600
  • Joined: 08-August 07
  • Location::

Posted 07 December 2010 - 07:00 PM

Or it may simply be that women are more opporessed in Korel society. Erikson once answered a question about women and men being treated roughly equally in his world by pointing out that if women can be mages as easily as men, it's hard to have generalized sexist views when some women can blow up a city. With magic being suppressed in Korel, though, this might not as easily apply (all the priests of the Lady are male, as far as we know)

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
0

#8 User is offline   Aptorian 

  • How 'bout a hug?
  • Group: The Wheelchairs of War
  • Posts: 24,781
  • Joined: 22-May 06

Posted 07 December 2010 - 07:53 PM

View PostKhellendros, on 06 December 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:

- If Nok had taken a vow never to set foot on land, why do we see him on land in House of Chains?


Did he not make that vow after the events of RCG? I seem to recall something like that.

View PostKhellendros, on 06 December 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:

- I enjoyed the little one-line mentions of Bauchelain and Korbal Broach, and Ruthan Gudd :hulk:


Actually, I have a hard time believing a meeting between B&KB and the Lady would turn out well.

When I read it I thought of the two necromancers, but I was also reminded of the travels of Kelanved and Dancer. They travelled through many of the lands outside the empire when they were exploring, I could imagine them meeting the Lady.

View PostKhellendros, on 06 December 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:

- So what was Mallick Rel's motivation in sending an army to Korel if they were just going to pull out again, as it seems they do at the end? Strikes me that he didn't do it out of the goodness of his heart. I don't think you can explain it as Mallick's ties to Mael, because those were severed in RotCG. And Mallick never appeared to me as one who was in the loop when it came to the larger, world-changing picture. Does Mallick really care if the Stormwall comes down or not? I got the impression he gave Greymane command because he's a pragmatist, and Greymane was someone who knew the land, as did Rillish, and had a vested interest in coming back (by which I mean revenge against his usurpers, not the Stonewielder thing). Surely Mallick doesn't care if Korel is freed of the Lady or not, he just wants the lands under Imperial control and more coins going into the Imperial coffers. Plus a successful campaign would do wonders for a new emperor. But we never really get an explanation as to why the army was sent, other than to teach the 6th Army a lesson. But was that really it? I find it hard to believe.


I don't think they've pulled out at all. They've claimed the lands the 6th held and for now this is good enough. I don't find it unreasonable that the Empire sent a punative army at the 6th. That kind of shit has to stomped out. For a long time the Koreli campaign had been a black mark in the empires history, this campaign was to change that story.

View PostSinisdar Toste, on 07 December 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

could be that women are resistant to the fanticizing effect of the lady, look at faradan sort


The only think I could think about when ever I thought of the Stormguards and their Chosen was how fucking badass Faradan Sort must actually be if she held a position on the Wall once. New found respect right there.
0

#9 User is offline   nacht 

  • Mortal Sword
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,046
  • Joined: 16-April 10

Posted 07 December 2010 - 11:59 PM

I am confused about many things too and would appreciate any clarification.

How did Greymane end up meeting the Stormriders. Was he a prisoner at at the wall or a volunteer who took a stroll down to the water to meet up with them.
Also, same question about Faradan Sort.

It seems that the Stormriders really wanted to get to the ring for a pilimigrage or something and could have taken a sea route instead of trying to jump over the wall.

Which god governs the Driss warren?. It seems Burn's warren is the Tennes warren.

Overall a nice read. It seems ICE is more visceral where as SE is more intellectual. It is easier to imagine ICE's characters.

but these questions keep bothering me.
0

#10 User is offline   Khellendros 

  • Saboteur of High House Mafia
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 7,298
  • Joined: 14-August 07

Posted 09 December 2010 - 09:46 AM

It's never spelled out how Greymane ended up meeting with the Stormriders, although it seems intimated that one day he just took a boat out, realised they spoke Korelri, and talked back to them. They ended up liking him and as a token of their friendship gave him the sword which they'd found sitting on the sea bed...somewhat conveniently.

You're right in that Burn's warren is supposed to be Tennes. Many people have made a connection between Greymane's sword and Caladan Brood's hammer, mostly based on one of the final scenes in RotCG when Greymane refuses to use the sword against Skinner because he's too close to a temple of Burn. But it seems possible now that the sword is not from Burn in the same way as Brood's hammer is - it just has an increased effect when close to her presence due to stone and earth being so closely related. So that begs the question - if the sword is of D'riss - who, if anyone, rules or is master of the D'riss Warren?

Basically, another question which you have to think should have been answered in SW - from whom is the freaking sword actually from?????
"I think I've made a terrible error of judgement."
0

#11 User is offline   D'rek 

  • Consort of High House Mafia
  • Group: Super Moderators
  • Posts: 14,600
  • Joined: 08-August 07
  • Location::

Posted 09 December 2010 - 06:01 PM

View PostKhellendros, on 09 December 2010 - 09:46 AM, said:

It's never spelled out how Greymane ended up meeting with the Stormriders, although it seems intimated that one day he just took a boat out, realised they spoke Korelri, and talked back to them. They ended up liking him and as a token of their friendship gave him the sword which they'd found sitting on the sea bed...somewhat conveniently.

You're right in that Burn's warren is supposed to be Tennes. Many people have made a connection between Greymane's sword and Caladan Brood's hammer, mostly based on one of the final scenes in RotCG when Greymane refuses to use the sword against Skinner because he's too close to a temple of Burn. But it seems possible now that the sword is not from Burn in the same way as Brood's hammer is - it just has an increased effect when close to her presence due to stone and earth being so closely related. So that begs the question - if the sword is of D'riss - who, if anyone, rules or is master of the D'riss Warren?

Basically, another question which you have to think should have been answered in SW - from whom is the freaking sword actually from?????


D'riss has no one ruler that we've ever seen or has ever been hinted at. Major gods of the D'riss warren include the Queen of Dreams and D'rek (take the D'r from D'rek and the 'riss from T'riss to make D'riss!). Burn is supposedly Tennes, as was Fener (aka Tennerock). Not every warren needs to have a single ruler/controller. In fact, none of the Paths seem to Shadow, which itself is extremely closely tied to Kurald Emurlahn and tends to blur the lines of most warren semantics anyways.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
0

#12 User is offline   Urizen 

  • First Sword
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 517
  • Joined: 13-August 08
  • Location:Sweden

Posted 09 December 2010 - 06:51 PM

View PostKhellendros, on 09 December 2010 - 09:46 AM, said:

It's never spelled out how Greymane ended up meeting with the Stormriders, although it seems intimated that one day he just took a boat out, realised they spoke Korelri, and talked back to them. They ended up liking him and as a token of their friendship gave him the sword which they'd found sitting on the sea bed...somewhat conveniently.



This to me was Greymane basiclly giving Kyle the cliffnotes version of what happen and deliberately leaving out any secrets/motivations the Riders or himself might have.
" Ah, I despair, or I would if I cared enough. No, instead, I will make some ashcakes. Which I will not share."
0

#13 User is offline   D'rek 

  • Consort of High House Mafia
  • Group: Super Moderators
  • Posts: 14,600
  • Joined: 08-August 07
  • Location::

Posted 10 December 2010 - 02:31 AM

View PostUrizen, on 09 December 2010 - 06:51 PM, said:

View PostKhellendros, on 09 December 2010 - 09:46 AM, said:

It's never spelled out how Greymane ended up meeting with the Stormriders, although it seems intimated that one day he just took a boat out, realised they spoke Korelri, and talked back to them. They ended up liking him and as a token of their friendship gave him the sword which they'd found sitting on the sea bed...somewhat conveniently.



This to me was Greymane basiclly giving Kyle the cliffnotes version of what happen and deliberately leaving out any secrets/motivations the Riders or himself might have.


Yup. I think chiefly he wanted to leave out that the Riders asked him to break the wall with it, or that he could do so at all. He didn't want Kyle coming with him to break it and getting killed.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
0

#14 User is offline   nacht 

  • Mortal Sword
  • Group: Malaz Regular
  • Posts: 1,046
  • Joined: 16-April 10

Posted 10 December 2010 - 06:25 PM

View PostD, on 09 December 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

View PostKhellendros, on 09 December 2010 - 09:46 AM, said:

It's never spelled out how Greymane ended up meeting with the Stormriders, although it seems intimated that one day he just took a boat out, realised they spoke Korelri, and talked back to them. They ended up liking him and as a token of their friendship gave him the sword which they'd found sitting on the sea bed...somewhat conveniently.

You're right in that Burn's warren is supposed to be Tennes. Many people have made a connection between Greymane's sword and Caladan Brood's hammer, mostly based on one of the final scenes in RotCG when Greymane refuses to use the sword against Skinner because he's too close to a temple of Burn. But it seems possible now that the sword is not from Burn in the same way as Brood's hammer is - it just has an increased effect when close to her presence due to stone and earth being so closely related. So that begs the question - if the sword is of D'riss - who, if anyone, rules or is master of the D'riss Warren?

Basically, another question which you have to think should have been answered in SW - from whom is the freaking sword actually from?????


D'riss has no one ruler that we've ever seen or has ever been hinted at. Major gods of the D'riss warren include the Queen of Dreams and D'rek (take the D'r from D'rek and the 'riss from T'riss to make D'riss!). Burn is supposedly Tennes, as was Fener (aka Tennerock). Not every warren needs to have a single ruler/controller. In fact, none of the Paths seem to Shadow, which itself is extremely closely tied to Kurald Emurlahn and tends to blur the lines of most warren semantics anyways.


Thanks for the clarification. It make sense except that the Echanteress uses the Thyrr warren in the book.
0

#15 User is offline   D'rek 

  • Consort of High House Mafia
  • Group: Super Moderators
  • Posts: 14,600
  • Joined: 08-August 07
  • Location::

Posted 10 December 2010 - 07:50 PM

View Postnacht, on 10 December 2010 - 06:25 PM, said:

View PostD, on 09 December 2010 - 06:01 PM, said:

View PostKhellendros, on 09 December 2010 - 09:46 AM, said:

It's never spelled out how Greymane ended up meeting with the Stormriders, although it seems intimated that one day he just took a boat out, realised they spoke Korelri, and talked back to them. They ended up liking him and as a token of their friendship gave him the sword which they'd found sitting on the sea bed...somewhat conveniently.

You're right in that Burn's warren is supposed to be Tennes. Many people have made a connection between Greymane's sword and Caladan Brood's hammer, mostly based on one of the final scenes in RotCG when Greymane refuses to use the sword against Skinner because he's too close to a temple of Burn. But it seems possible now that the sword is not from Burn in the same way as Brood's hammer is - it just has an increased effect when close to her presence due to stone and earth being so closely related. So that begs the question - if the sword is of D'riss - who, if anyone, rules or is master of the D'riss Warren?

Basically, another question which you have to think should have been answered in SW - from whom is the freaking sword actually from?????


D'riss has no one ruler that we've ever seen or has ever been hinted at. Major gods of the D'riss warren include the Queen of Dreams and D'rek (take the D'r from D'rek and the 'riss from T'riss to make D'riss!). Burn is supposedly Tennes, as was Fener (aka Tennerock). Not every warren needs to have a single ruler/controller. In fact, none of the Paths seem to Shadow, which itself is extremely closely tied to Kurald Emurlahn and tends to blur the lines of most warren semantics anyways.


Thanks for the clarification. It make sense except that the Echanteress uses the Thyrr warren in the book.


Like a lot of sorcerors, I'm sure many of the gods use multiple warrens. ST uses Meanas, Rashan, Thyr, KG, KE...

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
0

#16 User is offline   tiam 

  • Ascendant
  • Group: Mott Irregulars
  • Posts: 3,948
  • Joined: 26-January 06

Posted 12 December 2010 - 06:57 PM

Quote fu is weak but as for the comparison between Broods hammer and Greys sword there is definitely a bit where someone claims he has a sword unique to the world as an embodiment of Driss apart from one other with Broods hammer being the obvious reference.
0

#17 User is offline   Aptorian 

  • How 'bout a hug?
  • Group: The Wheelchairs of War
  • Posts: 24,781
  • Joined: 22-May 06

Posted 12 December 2010 - 07:03 PM

View Posttiam, on 12 December 2010 - 06:57 PM, said:

Quote fu is weak but as for the comparison between Broods hammer and Greys sword there is definitely a bit where someone claims he has a sword unique to the world as an embodiment of Driss apart from one other with Broods hammer being the obvious reference.


The same reference is made in RCG. Most likely Burn made the sword for the very purpose of destroying the Wall before she fell asleep.

Again, it would have been really nice if Esslemont would have devoted some more pages to the sword, the wall and why the Stormriders were attacking it.
0

#18 User is offline   Mentalist 

  • Martyr of High House Mafia
  • Group: High House Mafia
  • Posts: 9,497
  • Joined: 06-June 07
  • Location:'sauga/GTA, City of the Lion
  • Interests:Soccer, Chess, swimming, books, misc
  • Junior Mafia Mod

Posted 20 December 2010 - 09:22 PM

one, question, might be silly:

WHo is Ipshank's god?
The problem with the gene pool is that there's no lifeguard
THE CONTESTtm WINNER--чемпіон самоконтролю

View PostJump Around, on 23 October 2011 - 11:04 AM, said:

And I want to state that Ment has out-weaseled me by far in this game.
0

#19 User is offline   Aptorian 

  • How 'bout a hug?
  • Group: The Wheelchairs of War
  • Posts: 24,781
  • Joined: 22-May 06

Posted 20 December 2010 - 09:32 PM

From what he stated in his conversation with the Lady, his God is himself. A god that asks for nothing and gives nothing in return, because the god has nothing to give... or something like that. And extrapulating from that, I guess everyone is their own personal god or something.I believe the message was use your fucking heads and take account of your own actions.

But I may be misenterpreting that a bit, he got very philosophical in just a few sentences and I didn't stop up to think too much about it.
0

#20 User is offline   tiam 

  • Ascendant
  • Group: Mott Irregulars
  • Posts: 3,948
  • Joined: 26-January 06

Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:37 PM

In regards to Ipshank I think it doesnt need to be over analysed. In an entire continent more or less gripped in religiouis fervour it would only take Ipshank to start preaching belief in oneself rather than the lady to make him revolutionary. That part of the book I liked, in the way that ICE didnt over sell the self belief aspct of Ipshanks preaching
0

Share this topic:


  • 3 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users