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D'rek just finished it and is stealing Abyss' topic title ...but owes Abyss $10,000 in fees + BRAINZZZZ... Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 04:42 AM

SPOILERS!!!


I'm one of the people who thought RotCG was great, that its weaknesses were minor and that it made for a very fun and fast-paced romp with great characters and giant explosions. So right there my expectations were very high for Stonewielder. Now I'm not going to actually steal Abyss review style with the fancy awards, instead I think I'll just run through each of the main characters and storylines with my thoughts on them. But first some abstract overview stuff, of course!


A big factor in reading and enjoying ICE's books is the hype. While some characters return and some storylines continue, it is looking like ICE's novels are going to be a lot more disjoint than the Erikson books which continue storylines more directly and feature far more returning characters (not in the GotM-to-DG sense, but in the GotM-to-MoI, DG-to-HoC, etc. sense). As such, a big part of the excitement for ICE's books comes not from the anticipation of hearing about what happens following the previous book, but rather from exploring important events and places that have only been alluded to previously. The trouble there is that ICE needs to make the event and location engrossing without taking away all the mystery. I thought his handling of The Return, the Old Guard, the Malaz Civil War, the Return of the Crimson Guard, etc. were all handled superbly well, in that regard. The entire sub-continent of Korel, I think was a combination of hit-and-miss in this regard, but thankfully with far more hits than misses.

Ussu and the corrupted Sixth Army - HIT. Ussu doesn't get a lot of screen time (and doesn't need it because he doesn't do that much), but what he has showcases perfectly how the Lady clamps down on mages, and the crazed-surgeon/mage combination is definitely something new. The Sixth Army having gone rogue and severed its ties with the Empire was definitely unexpected and praise to ICE and SE for not having so much as hinted at that until now.

Bakune versus the Lady - MISS. We really didn't need even half of Bakune's pages of him discovering more and more that the religious fanatics are sacrificing people to her. There was enough hinting at that in the other storylines that you could skip Bakune entirely and still get it, and then the cullmination of that revealing bit of information is in Hiam's storyline anyways. Like many characters before him, Bakune suffers from being boring and surrounded by other characters who are much more interesting and much more important. Ipshank's religious war with the church had far more importance to the overall plot. Bakune goes with him in his first attempt to destroy the Lady's artifact, but it's been moved, and Bakune doesn't even have anything to do with the second attempt to destroy it. Karien'el's political maneuvering and switching titles about would have been far more interesting, too. Manask was wonderfully hilarious and got just the right amount of screentime, so at least there's that.

Suth and Rillish, Conquerers of Rool - HIT.
The best storyline of the book and the only one to get really exciting before the climax - that would be during the naval engagement with the Mare blockade. I really liked how ICE isn't wasting time going over common-day things that SE has covered already, ie we don't get pages of Suth, Lard and Dim getting used to military life because that's been done already in HoC. It's the same principle that worked so well with the crazy sapper in RotCG - SE had already established that sappers were all lunatics so ICE just takes it as known fact and made them even crazier. I was fairly well able to keep track of everyone in Suth's squad from the get-go, and that's pretty good for a bunch of mostly thick-headed heavy infantry.

Kyle worked surprisingly well as a pseudo-secondary character and I liked the change from being the Crimson Guard rookie all the other guardsmen looked down on to that rumoured stint in the Guard inspiring everyone with awe. His handling of his leadership tasks and not crying nearly as much for Greymane as he did for Ereko makes it seem like he was an immature kid in RotCG and has grown up a lot since. And his plans at the end are about the most reasonable thing anyone 's ever done at the end of a Malazan novel.

I really didn't get Rillish' motivations at the start, so I thought maybe he was going because Mallick would give Talia and the babies the nobility/deeds/whatever whether he survived or not, but that doesn't seem to be the case at the end. Doesn't seem worth it to me considering Korel was considered such a death trap, but oh well. Boarding the Marese ship, followed by "I think we could use another ship." was great, and basically Rillish demonstrated all throughout the book how capable he was. The ending was a bit odd, I can't really see why the Riders would have bothered to save him. I think there should've been a short scene added in where the Riders are saving Greymane and somehow he knows or they tell him that Rillish has fallen and Greymane tells the Riders to save Rillish instead of himself because he knows he's been such a jerk to Rillish. Something like that. But oh well!

Ivanr and The Jourilan Reform - MISS. Unlike Bakune's story, stuff did actually happen here, but it was entirely irrelevent to the rest of the novel! The only connection to anything is that presumably the Priestess should be the same one as met Traveller in RotCG, but that girl was almost certaily an Edur and there's no mention of grey skin or any such thing. So a new religion for Dessembrae started in Jour and fought the Lady's religion, we saw plenty of that with Ipshank already, anyways. Martal being a former Greymane officer made me hope that the Army of Reform would meet up with Greymane's force and it would be significant somehow, but... nope.

Devaleth, High Mage of the invasion - 50/50. I found Devaleth to be a bit of a non-character for a lot of the novel, but her few scenes gleamed lots of information of the other officers' backgrounds so that was good.

Hiam and Corlo on the Stormwall - HIT. Hiam was a good well-rounded character, I especially liked the little bits of humour he indulged in that kept him from just being a one-dimensional religious fanatic. The Stormwall was given lots of detail, which was necessary after the little teaser we got in RotCG, and I liked how if the Stormguard had to be your cliche overly-arrogant religious fanatic uber-fighters, they actually had some benefit/reason to be so stuck up their asses with the Lady's Grace/Wrath. Corlo's perspective matched perfectly with his former PoVs from MT and HOLY CRAP THEY CUT OFF HIS LEG.

Shell and the rescue squad - HIT. Having ass-kicking Avowed voluntarily go into prison was a nice little turn of events, but then the Skiiiinnnnneeeeeerrrrrrrrr part was an even BIGGER turn. It was great and utterly surprising to see some Kaminsod involvement after his absence from TtH and DoD!

Kiska's search - HIT. My favourite storyline, actually, full of mind-blowingness! Jhevel, finally! Warran, could figure it out fairly early, especially considering that other name ST goes by, but you couldn't be absolutely sure and the fishing jokes were funny. Random K'Chain Che'malle in Shadow, uh sure, why no-Holy Crap Hound of Light! Well I guess that's the most unexpec-ARMY OF LIOSAN WTF! Well, I guess we know L'oric's going to be in char-DAUGHTER OF OSSERC AGHGHGHGHHH!!! Oh it's Yathengar from the previous book well that makes sense. Aww, we don't get to see the Liosan kill him, darn. Well I guess this storyline's going to end on a low not-ENORMOUS CREATURE CARRYING A BOULDER FOR SOME REASON THIS DOESN'T EVEN MAKE SENSE:apt:


Overall I thought everything went along at a pretty good speed, but at the same time didn't find much excitement to be had between the Marese blockade and the climax. A very solid book and the mysteries of Korel were dealt with very well, which bodes extremely well for the even more mysterious Assail.

This post has been edited by D'rek: 05 December 2010 - 04:55 AM

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#2 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 06:06 AM

totally with you on the kiska/jhevel storyline being the best of the book. the second half of it, once they meet up with warran, is just one long WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON!! but loving every minute of it. big, protean black demon released from imprisonment by the whorl? not even recognizable as anything we've ever seen? no problem, toss it a square of shadow-crystal!

i feel like if kiska or jhevel were from our world, one of them would have said 'my brain is full of fuck!' at least once.

and so many good ST lines. "nobody steals from me, not even a fish." just picturing his face as he said that had me chortling.
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#3 User is offline   Urizen 

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 10:10 AM

I felt that while Kiska's storyline was important and interesting (and at time very funny with Warran/Shadowthrone) the interaction between Leoman and Kiska was a rehash of Lostara/Pearl's travels in HoC.
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#4 User is offline   champ 

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 03:16 PM

i am interested to know how the army of light fits into the whole series (will they be involved with Kharkanas tCG) and whether it was Osserc's daughter (cant remember her name) or L'oric who were the ones controlling the Hounds of Light in TtH!

I was suprised to see ST so relaxed considering what was going on, random K'Chain, Hounds of Light, Tiste Liosan and the Wound all going on in Shadow and not one temper tantrum!

Also ST confirmed to be ruler of Emurlahn or anyone think ICE just used Emurlahn to describe Shadow/Meneas?

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#5 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 05:31 PM

i think ST likes to style himself ruler of emurlahn, but he doesn't have all the fragments under his control.

as for the army of light... kiska and leoman passed through yathengar's little bit of chaos and ended up in KG, why not the army?
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#6 User is offline   D'rek 

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Posted 07 December 2010 - 06:58 PM

View Postchampooon, on 07 December 2010 - 03:16 PM, said:

i am interested to know how the army of light fits into the whole series (will they be involved with Kharkanas tCG) and whether it was Osserc's daughter (cant remember her name) or L'oric who were the ones controlling the Hounds of Light in TtH!


tCG spoiler
Spoiler


View Postchampooon, on 07 December 2010 - 03:16 PM, said:

Also ST confirmed to be ruler of Emurlahn or anyone think ICE just used Emurlahn to describe Shadow/Meneas?


As Stalker says, Shadow, Meanas, Emurlahn, call it what you like because it doesn't give a whit.

View Postworrywort, on 14 September 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

I kinda love it when D'rek unleashes her nerd wrath, as I knew she would here. Sorry innocent bystanders, but someone's gotta be the kindling.
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#7 User is offline   aschwiig 

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 06:38 PM

View PostSinisdar Toste, on 05 December 2010 - 06:06 AM, said:

totally with you on the kiska/jhevel storyline being the best of the book. the second half of it, once they meet up with warran, is just one long WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON!! but loving every minute of it. big, protean black demon released from imprisonment by the whorl? not even recognizable as anything we've ever seen? no problem, toss it a square of shadow-crystal!



I'm re-reading DG now with SW fresh in mind, and noticed that *a* big black demon gets a mention there. It appears during the Diver's and Soletaken attack on Duiker, Kulp and Wickans. I'm not sure if it'st the same entity, but it's very much like the one in SW. It's on P181 of my Bantam MMPB - which is coming apart as I read it, sadly. I've literally read it to bits :-)
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#8 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 06:45 PM

That was almost certainly the aptorian.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 21 December 2010 - 06:46 PM

Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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#9 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:06 PM

yeah, this fellow seemed bipedal
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#10 User is offline   aschwiig 

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 04:13 PM

View PostIlluyankas, on 21 December 2010 - 06:45 PM, said:

That was almost certainly the aptorian.



View PostSinisdar Toste, on 21 December 2010 - 09:06 PM, said:

yeah, this fellow seemed bipedal


I somehow doubt it. There's no mention of those other characteristics of the aptorian, and it's described as having "arms"
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#11 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 25 December 2010 - 05:18 PM

You're right, and after seeing the scene in the Tor reread I think it's actually Moby.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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#12 User is offline   aschwiig 

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Posted 26 December 2010 - 07:58 AM

View PostIlluyankas, on 25 December 2010 - 05:18 PM, said:

You're right, and after seeing the scene in the Tor reread I think it's actually Moby.


Having now finished DG I tend to agree. So, given the fate of Moby and the similarity of the descriptions, the demon in SW could be a creature of the same order as Moby?
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#13 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 09:07 AM

it could be. but in this instance, I am the one doing the doubting. (that sounded really priggish lol)

this guy is described in a few ways: "midnight black from its rounded half-formed head to its feet"; it has a "disturbingly blank moulded head" and ripples cross its face as it produces a mouth and eyes from nothing

now the colour is the same, but other than that we really have nothing to go on. the demon we presume to be moby is swarmed with shapeshifters in its only on-screen appearance.

so what i'm trying to say is maybe, but i'll reserve judgement until we have more information. though personally, i always thought that moby was a kenryll'ah demon and i have very little evidence to back that up :)
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#14 User is offline   aschwiig 

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 09:24 AM

View PostSinisdar Toste, on 27 December 2010 - 09:07 AM, said:

it could be. but in this instance, I am the one doing the doubting. (that sounded really priggish lol)

this guy is described in a few ways: "midnight black from its rounded half-formed head to its feet"; it has a "disturbingly blank moulded head" and ripples cross its face as it produces a mouth and eyes from nothing

now the colour is the same, but other than that we really have nothing to go on. the demon we presume to be moby is swarmed with shapeshifters in its only on-screen appearance.

so what i'm trying to say is maybe, but i'll reserve judgement until we have more information. though personally, i always thought that moby was a kenryll'ah demon and i have very little evidence to back that up :)


I'm not convinced myself , but speculation is a big part of the fun :-)
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#15 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 27 December 2010 - 03:35 PM

View PostSinisdar Toste, on 27 December 2010 - 09:07 AM, said:

it could be. but in this instance, I am the one doing the doubting. (that sounded really priggish lol)

this guy is described in a few ways: "midnight black from its rounded half-formed head to its feet"; it has a "disturbingly blank moulded head" and ripples cross its face as it produces a mouth and eyes from nothing

now the colour is the same, but other than that we really have nothing to go on. the demon we presume to be moby is swarmed with shapeshifters in its only on-screen appearance.

so what i'm trying to say is maybe, but i'll reserve judgement until we have more information. though personally, i always thought that moby was a kenryll'ah demon and i have very little evidence to back that up :)

I thought it might be the random bat-thing that disappears after they escape the Liosan, but anyway.
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#16 User is offline   Sinisdar Toste 

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 07:26 AM

View PostMTS, on 27 December 2010 - 03:35 PM, said:

View PostSinisdar Toste, on 27 December 2010 - 09:07 AM, said:

it could be. but in this instance, I am the one doing the doubting. (that sounded really priggish lol)

this guy is described in a few ways: "midnight black from its rounded half-formed head to its feet"; it has a "disturbingly blank moulded head" and ripples cross its face as it produces a mouth and eyes from nothing

now the colour is the same, but other than that we really have nothing to go on. the demon we presume to be moby is swarmed with shapeshifters in its only on-screen appearance.

so what i'm trying to say is maybe, but i'll reserve judgement until we have more information. though personally, i always thought that moby was a kenryll'ah demon and i have very little evidence to back that up :)

I thought it might be the random bat-thing that disappears after they escape the Liosan, but anyway.

pardon? when did the bat-thing come into this?
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#17 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 10:00 AM

View PostSinisdar Toste, on 07 December 2010 - 05:31 PM, said:

i think ST likes to style himself ruler of emurlahn, but he doesn't have all the fragments under his control.

as for the army of light... kiska and leoman passed through yathengar's little bit of chaos and ended up in KG, why not the army?

I'm pretty sure they went and killed Yath, since ST sees Jayashul (LOL) and L'oric come back out of the Whorl all bloodied up and stuff. When that happened the force sustaining the Whorl (i.e. Yath) winked out and suddenly they were back. At least that's how I read it anyway. Does it occur to anyone that Tayschrenn might be chilling in Kharkanas/same area as Kiska/Leoman? Seems strange they didn't find him but they found Yath.

And the bat-thing flies off the edge of the Abyss-place, Kiska and Leoman follow, then suddenly they wake up on the Shores of Creation (how the hell does Leoman know that, by the way?) and the only thing in sight is a lumbering behemoth dragging a boulder? I dunno, at the time I connected the two. Probably wrong, but anyway.
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#18 User is offline   Findarato 

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 04:43 PM

@MTS: And the bat-thing flies off the edge of the Abyss-place, Kiska and Leoman follow, then suddenly they wake up on the Shores of Creation (how the hell does Leoman know that, by the way?) and the only thing in sight is a lumbering behemoth dragging a boulder? I dunno, at the time I connected the two. Probably wrong, but anyway.

Yes, how did Leoman know that? I also wondered why he recognised Yath (who is from Seven Cities if I recall correctly). Or was it Yath recognising Leoman. Did we have scenes where they have met each other before? It might well be I missed something like that even on my reread of the series.

This post has been edited by Findarato: 28 December 2010 - 04:45 PM

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#19 User is offline   MTS 

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 05:23 PM

Leoman recognises him because he was a Faladan, which is apparently a priest, of Ehrlitan. That's a confusing piece of information, since the plural for Falah'd is Fala'dhan, which is similar in spelling and pronunciation. Maybe 'cos there's a functionary connection between priest and ruler among 7C nobility...

ANYWAY, Leoman showed a familiarity with Ehrlitan in BH, so it's not unthinkable they would have met. What I found most strange is Leoman takes his presence there all in stride, and not once does he ask how a priest of Ehrlitan came to be at the centre of a Chaos wound in Shadow. It was a bit jarring.
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#20 User is offline   Findarato 

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Posted 28 December 2010 - 09:16 PM

View PostMTS, on 28 December 2010 - 05:23 PM, said:

Leoman recognises him because he was a Faladan, which is apparently a priest, of Ehrlitan. That's a confusing piece of information, since the plural for Falah'd is Fala'dhan, which is similar in spelling and pronunciation. Maybe 'cos there's a functionary connection between priest and ruler among 7C nobility...

ANYWAY, Leoman showed a familiarity with Ehrlitan in BH, so it's not unthinkable they would have met. What I found most strange is Leoman takes his presence there all in stride, and not once does he ask how a priest of Ehrlitan came to be at the centre of a Chaos wound in Shadow. It was a bit jarring.


yes that seems a plausible answer, thanks. I should make a re-re-read of some scenes in BH.
Concerning his matter-o-fact behaviour, I might be able to imagine Leoman is just making a show hiding any doubts or insecurities he may have. He also acted that way when he and Kiska were trapped by the hound and there seemed no way out. Leoman would not show he can't manage a situation. :) Meaning, he might ask himself but he wold not say it aloud.
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