[Merrid]

Kessobahn, on 03 December 2010 - 02:55 AM, said:

Merrid, on 03 December 2010 - 02:46 AM, said:

Kessobahn, on 03 December 2010 - 02:43 AM, said:

Merrid seems to be saying that it doesn't, because ... well, just because, and if does, it doesn't matter. That's an awful lot like a response you'd expect from someone defending for a team that can recruit. Very ham-handed, in fact.

Just because? Quit strawmanning.

No, it's not, as it accurately sums up your crap argument.

Explain why recruitment is superfluous as a game mechanic. It was a complete fucking assertion, without substance, and utterly contrary to anything remotely resembling logic.

You read my post wrong. Hardly surprising. Recruitment is not superfluous as a game mechanic, defection is if there's recruiting in the game. But I can see how that point is debatable, fine. How does the VC make sense if they're a cult and not a killing faction? Are leaders recruitable? what about people who defect, must they be brought back into the fold again as well? You're basically suggesting that YS's goal is to recruit everyone, and that means everyone is recruitable. EIther that or they have a recruiter and killers. Yeah, right. Again, you're taking Serc's role title and taking it to a massive extreme, and it's a bit of a logical leap in my mind. The role titles have always been flamboyant, RI in the last game were 'Commandant of the Ru Nan Command' and 'Master of the Horse' and all that stuff. Not that I'm suggesting he was RI, but to conflate his title directly with his powers is I think a mistake. I mean, you could make just as convincing an argument that as chief of personnel he could have been a finder or the operations master or involved with the defection mechanic somehow. Going from his title to 'almost certain there's recruiting' when there's really no evidence besides what's in your head stinks of fear-mongering. That post from Omtose about Serc talking about recruitment was talking mainly about Zhang Xiu and Huang Zhong anyway!

[Merrid]

Omtose, on 03 December 2010 - 03:10 AM, said:

I'm with Kessobahn here. As Emurlahn pointed out, Merrid is talking about defection, not recruitment, when he mentions superfluous, but even so it's still very strange. I hardly think the ability to defect to another faction is useless/inconsequential; as Kessobahn said, it bolsters a faction's ranks while also depleting another faction, which certainly helps toward the victory conditions.

Good lord, do you guys even know what superfluous means? From dictionary.com for those who don't or need a refresher:

Quote

being more than is sufficient or required; excessive.

It is not in any way calling the defection mechanic something inconsequential and not worthy of note. It means that in a game with recruitment the ability for people to voluntarily switch sides is weighted heavily in YS's favour, as they can recruit as well. A cult is always much more dangerous than a killer faction, so why would someone defect from YS especially if they have similar numbers to the other factions, especially if there's the likelihood they would be recruited again? It's not balanced.
Could you guys, you know, deal with the ramifications I posted rather than get mired in the paranoia of semantics?

[Omtose]

God, I feel like a nerd quoting Dictionary.com, but:

su·per·flu·ous   /sʊˈpɜrfluəs/ Show Spelled
[soo-pur-floo-uhs] Show IPA

–adjective
1. being more than is sufficient or required; excessive.
2. unnecessary or needless.

If something is excessive, it suggests, to me at least, that it's not needed in this type of game.

[Omtose]

Anyway, I disgress; as Merrid has said, I don't want to get caught up into semantics. I think it was a poor word choice, but he's since clarified what he meant.

[Kessobahn]

Merrid, on 03 December 2010 - 03:14 AM, said:

You read my post wrong. Hardly surprising. Recruitment is not superfluous as a game mechanic, defection is if there's recruiting in the game. But I can see how that point is debatable, fine. How does the VC make sense if they're a cult and not a killing faction? Are leaders recruitable? what about people who defect, must they be brought back into the fold again as well? You're basically suggesting that YS's goal is to recruit everyone, and that means everyone is recruitable. EIther that or they have a recruiter and killers. Yeah, right. Again, you're taking Serc's role title and taking it to a massive extreme, and it's a bit of a logical leap in my mind. The role titles have always been flamboyant, RI in the last game were 'Commandant of the Ru Nan Command' and 'Master of the Horse' and all that stuff. Not that I'm suggesting he was RI, but to conflate his title directly with his powers is I think a mistake. I mean, you could make just as convincing an argument that as chief of personnel he could have been a finder or the operations master or involved with the defection mechanic somehow. Going from his title to 'almost certain there's recruiting' when there's really no evidence besides what's in your head stinks of fear-mongering. That post from Omtose about Serc talking about recruitment was talking mainly about Zhang Xiu and Huang Zhong anyway!

All of that assumes that the defection is scripted instead of voluntary. Also, I'm not saying that's their only means of winning, but merely a tool they can use, and one that shouldn't be discounted, as both you and Korabas seem to want to do way too much. After all, one way of eliminating the enemy is to bring them to your side.

And I think Serc's title collates nicely with the possibility that YS can recruit. Possibility. It's always been used as a balancing factor, along with NKs. There have always been Cults that can also kill - this isn't just in my head.

And the posts between Omtose and Serc are irrelevant ... we don't need to speculate, we have a CF clearly identifying Serc as YS.

[Ruse]

Merrid, on 03 December 2010 - 02:44 AM, said:

Kessobahn, on 03 December 2010 - 02:26 AM, said:

Merrid, on 03 December 2010 - 02:00 AM, said:

I'm not sure why Kesso seems to be harping on about recruitment being almost a certain mechanic in this game. The VCs for each faction don't make sense if one faction was a cult, much less Yuan Shao. They have to 'defeat everybody', which heavily suggests killing rather than recruitment. Also, the defection mechanic that seems to exist looks like it's a sort of voluntary recruitment and if that's so it's then superfluous as a game mechanic.

... What the fuck? How the hell is voluntary recruitment not important as a game mechanic???

You're basically saying "Oh, it's all right if my team loses players to the other side." Which would only make sense if you're on the side that benefits.

And yes, it still makes sense for recruitment to be a mechanic even given the victory conditions. Your entire post made absolutely no sense.

Superfluous =/= not important, you're twisting my words. Having both recruitment and the ability to switch sides is a bit of a redundancy in my mind, and apart from one instance all the defection-looking scenes have pointed to people going to Yuan Shao. Having recruitment on top of that? Too OP, and D'rek is all about balance.

Cult objectives are rarely 'get rid of everybody', it's usually gain a majority. Killing factions are much MUCH more likely to have a VC that requires them to get rid of everybody that isn't them. For Yuan Shao to be recruiters would mean in this game everybody is recruitable. Are you seriously telling me that you think leaders are recruitable? That's ridiculously OP. And all of this is based of the fact that Serc's title was 'Chief of personnel', which is flimsy at best.

I agree, Chief of Personal seems to me to be more of a HR position. Not so much a recruiter position. But really its based off of Chinese so...

[Omtose]

Quote

That post from Omtose about Serc talking about recruitment was talking mainly about Zhang Xiu and Huang Zhong anyway!

I don't think you know what Merrid is talking about, Kessobahn. He's talking about how I dug up a post from Serc, with Serc talking about recruiting.

[Path-Shaper]

It is Day 2. 9 hours and 58 minutes remaining
12 Players still alive: Emurlahn, Galain, Kessobahn, Korabas, Merrid, Mockra, Omtose, Rashan, Ruse, Silchas Ruin, Tiamatha, Tulas Shorn

7 votes to lynch, 6 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Ruse ( Rashan, Galain )
1 Vote for Tiamatha ( Korabas )
1 Vote for Rashan ( Mockra )
2 Votes for Korabas ( Kessobahn, Tiamatha )

Players not voted: Emurlahn, Merrid, Omtose, Ruse, Silchas Ruin, Tulas Shorn

[Ruse]

Merrid, on 03 December 2010 - 03:22 AM, said:

Omtose, on 03 December 2010 - 03:10 AM, said:

I'm with Kessobahn here. As Emurlahn pointed out, Merrid is talking about defection, not recruitment, when he mentions superfluous, but even so it's still very strange. I hardly think the ability to defect to another faction is useless/inconsequential; as Kessobahn said, it bolsters a faction's ranks while also depleting another faction, which certainly helps toward the victory conditions.

Good lord, do you guys even know what superfluous means? From dictionary.com for those who don't or need a refresher:

Quote

being more than is sufficient or required; excessive.

It is not in any way calling the defection mechanic something inconsequential and not worthy of note. It means that in a game with recruitment the ability for people to voluntarily switch sides is weighted heavily in YS's favour, as they can recruit as well. A cult is always much more dangerous than a killer faction, so why would someone defect from YS especially if they have similar numbers to the other factions, especially if there's the likelihood they would be recruited again? It's not balanced.
Could you guys, you know, deal with the ramifications I posted rather than get mired in the paranoia of semantics?

Ummm you do know that this is mafia right. That is pretty much our manta.

[Kessobahn]

Omtose, on 03 December 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

Quote

That post from Omtose about Serc talking about recruitment was talking mainly about Zhang Xiu and Huang Zhong anyway!

I don't think you know what Merrid is talking about, Kessobahn. He's talking about how I dug up a post from Serc, with Serc talking about recruiting.

Yeah, I missed that.

[Merrid]

Kessobahn, on 03 December 2010 - 03:35 AM, said:

Merrid, on 03 December 2010 - 03:14 AM, said:

You read my post wrong. Hardly surprising. Recruitment is not superfluous as a game mechanic, defection is if there's recruiting in the game. But I can see how that point is debatable, fine. How does the VC make sense if they're a cult and not a killing faction? Are leaders recruitable? what about people who defect, must they be brought back into the fold again as well? You're basically suggesting that YS's goal is to recruit everyone, and that means everyone is recruitable. EIther that or they have a recruiter and killers. Yeah, right. Again, you're taking Serc's role title and taking it to a massive extreme, and it's a bit of a logical leap in my mind. The role titles have always been flamboyant, RI in the last game were 'Commandant of the Ru Nan Command' and 'Master of the Horse' and all that stuff. Not that I'm suggesting he was RI, but to conflate his title directly with his powers is I think a mistake. I mean, you could make just as convincing an argument that as chief of personnel he could have been a finder or the operations master or involved with the defection mechanic somehow. Going from his title to 'almost certain there's recruiting' when there's really no evidence besides what's in your head stinks of fear-mongering. That post from Omtose about Serc talking about recruitment was talking mainly about Zhang Xiu and Huang Zhong anyway!

All of that assumes that the defection is scripted instead of voluntary. Also, I'm not saying that's their only means of winning, but merely a tool they can use, and one that shouldn't be discounted, as both you and Korabas seem to want to do way too much. After all, one way of eliminating the enemy is to bring them to your side.

And I think Serc's title collates nicely with the possibility that YS can recruit. Possibility. It's always been used as a balancing factor, along with NKs. There have always been Cults that can also kill - this isn't just in my head.

And the posts between Omtose and Serc are irrelevant ... we don't need to speculate, we have a CF clearly identifying Serc as YS.

Oh right, so now it's not almost certain, just a possibility? Nice backpedal?

Like I said, I hate to play semantics, but:

Quote

Yuan Shao's force's win when they've eliminated all other players.

'Eliminate' is a far cry from recruit. Now, you might think 'ZOMG, he's trying to downplay the threat of recruiting! He must be on a faction that can recruit!' Understandable, but weak logic. I'm not trying to downplay the threat, I'm skeptical it even exists. If there wasn't this defection mechanic going on, I'd be singing a different tune. It's always a possibility, but with this defection, the VCs and the ramifications from it, I don't think it's likely at all. And if you're on the line that YS can both recruit and kill, that's even more imbalanced in favour of YS if the others can only kill.


As for Omtose's post, he was pointing out how Serc was talking about recruiting as further evidence he might be a recruiter. That's hardly irrelevant. Yet IIRC the examples he cited were about Huang Zhong and Zhang Xiu allying and HZ recruiting more men, and the only bit that hinted to YS was that guy (Wen something) who defected. Again, I understand the reaction, but the evidence is flimsy.
'

[Ruse]

Omtose, on 03 December 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

Quote

That post from Omtose about Serc talking about recruitment was talking mainly about Zhang Xiu and Huang Zhong anyway!

I don't think you know what Merrid is talking about, Kessobahn. He's talking about how I dug up a post from Serc, with Serc talking about recruiting.

I hate to point this out as it seems obvious, but even though serc didn't know that he was going to die. We can't really take everything that he said at face value. Since he wasn't the leader then half of his job is to provide disinformation and to create lots of shit to wade through.

[Ruse]

Galain, on 02 December 2010 - 09:35 PM, said:

Oh my god I have caught up and let me tell you... thank you for posting a lot. Good to see us at 11 pages.

OK, Ruse is just the new Mockra. RAAAAAAAAAAAGE is the new rage, so to speak. Like, you call someone out and suddenly they throw a hissy fit. But the original basis for his call out is bogus to me.

I'm a little addled with all of the names because I can't ever see damn pictures to go with them and then we have all of the Chinese names on top of it, but I think Kesso's voting Korabas for acting in a manner that basically advertises his own faction. And Mockra is voting Rashan for, well, basically being stuck on Ruse all day and I think there's a tie to Serc or Mockra or something like that in there?

I don't think I can handle rereading all of that right now so hopefully I'm semi-right.

No there is no tie between me and Serc or Mockra. There was a tie between Serc and Rashan. Serc defended Rashan against me and Korabas.

[Emurlahn]

i think thats what galain ment, that there was a link with rashan, your name is only mentioned because galain says mockras reason to vote for rashan is because rashan is too focused on you

that said, im happy to see your posting information now and not just swearing at rashan,

[Ruse]

I find that the balance of the areas will have as big of an impact on the game as any defections or possible recruits. If I had to guess I would say that everyone should be able to move except for the leaders of the factions. I think that the day post confirmed this.

Path-Shaper, on 02 December 2010 - 07:50 PM, said:

Spies reported on the layout of the camp to Zhang Xiu's forces. The commanders were shocked: "With such an effectively orgnized naval force, and so many soldiers, how can we hope to overcome them?" Jia Xu laughed and replied, "Have no fear, gentlemen, I will set Yuan Shao's naval forces into disarray without loosing a single arrow!" The next day, Jia Xu sailed a small boat close to Xiang Yang to observe the enemy naval camp, and made sure that Yuan Shao's command tent could spot him observing. That evening, Yuan Shao conferred with his commanders: "The enemy has observed our camp with ease, but we know little of their own." "Your troubles are over, Your Excellency," said Peng Ji, an advisor. "Jia Xu and I were acquainted as children, but he is unaware that I am serving as a military advisor. I will go west, pretending to be arriving from the court, and while reminiscing will gather all the intelligence you need!"

So Jia Xu and Peng Ji's secret plots were each begun, but who would triumph in the battle of wits?

See the leaders stay in there camps while there spys go out and move around. I also suspect that both sides can get defections from the other side. That would make the most sense to me if the leaders couldn't leave their capitals.

[Emurlahn]

^{i think they can all move excpet maybe} Huang Zhong who is trapped in the middle

sorry about the different font sizes, my pc is messing around and wont change it

[Ruse]

Emurlahn, on 03 December 2010 - 04:10 AM, said:

i think thats what galain ment, that there was a link with rashan, your name is only mentioned because galain says mockras reason to vote for rashan is because rashan is too focused on you

that said, im happy to see your posting information now and not just swearing at rashan,

It wasn't even that bad. Mafia players ability to deal with outrage has gone steadily downhill since Mac stopped playing.

I posted a while after I raged at Rashan, but everyone seems to have ignored them. Well at least Galain did. Unfortunately I will be going to bed in a bit. I am a little perplexed over who I should vote for. Lynching Rashan would help to remove the possible link that Serc created but in a multifaction game fake symping is a matter of course.

[Ruse]

Emurlahn, on 03 December 2010 - 04:23 AM, said:

^{i think they can all move excpet maybe} Huang Zhong who is trapped in the middle

sorry about the different font sizes, my pc is messing around and wont change it

I would think that YS wouldn't be able to freely wander around his enemy's territory.

[Emurlahn]

hes surrounded by a huge army, whose onna stop him? maybe he cant go to the enemy satalites, but he could easily be able to move into the middle

[Emurlahn]

by the way do we know if we are haing a weekend freeze?