[Excellence]

Right.

From Dust of Dreams we know the Forkrul are in the southern kingdoms of Kolanse, wiping out everyone. There's something about doing that to empower a gate. We know their "mother" Kilmandaros would Dalek every human in the world if she could. And we know from the brief Badalle and Shake fight they subdue you by getting personal with your name, which I thought was a cool idea. Private joke -- she was bad, and sent them shaking. Get it? Oh whatever...

We know Tavore wants to meddle with the Chained One's imprisonment. We know she's leading the Bonehunters there. We know the Chained's heart is there and body parts all over the world continents.

We know from the next book's summary the "Forkrul are drawing upon an alien power."

That is exactly how the Chained One is constantly described all series long -- as an outsider to the pantheon. The alien from another realm, an alien of unknown.

So... a lot of things have been staring us in the face all series...

The Forkrul subdue you by affectinbg your name. Tavore is always called unknowable and unpredictable. Could the Forkrul be about to meet their match?

Eh?

[WhiskeyJackDaniels]

?

ummm...what did you work out? The thread title makes it seem like you had some prediction for tCG or something...

[Tattersail_]

i'm with whiskeyjack on this one!

[champ]

 WhiskeyJackDaniels, on 21 October 2010 - 02:52 PM, said:

?

ummm...what did you work out? The thread title makes it seem like you had some prediction for tCG or something...

 Tattersail, on 21 October 2010 - 03:03 PM, said:

i'm with whiskeyjack on this one!

he's(?) referring to how the Forkul Assail wouldnt be able to use their powers to control Tavore as shes known as "unknowable"... so she technically doesnt have a name that they will use to control her... i think!??!

This post has been edited by champooon: 21 October 2010 - 03:35 PM

[amphibian]

 champooon, on 21 October 2010 - 03:13 PM, said:

he's(?) referring to how the Forkul Assail wouldnt be able to use their powers to control Tavore as shes known as "unknowable"... so she technically doesnt have a name that they will use to control her... i think!??!

But... Tavore Paran is her birth name.

I just don't get how the FA would be particularly hunting a name when they're enormously powerful physically and are at least theoretically able to tap into the magical power of an honest-to-goodness god.

[champ]

 amphibian, on 21 October 2010 - 03:50 PM, said:

 champooon, on 21 October 2010 - 03:13 PM, said:

he's(?) referring to how the Forkul Assail wouldnt be able to use their powers to control Tavore as shes known as "unknowable"... so she technically doesnt have a name that they will use to control her... i think!??!

But... Tavore Paran is her birth name.

I just don't get how the FA would be particularly hunting a name when they're enormously powerful physically and are at least theoretically able to tap into the magical power of an honest-to-goodness god.

yeh i concur, was just trying to make some sense of it, as in he's maybe referring to her character!?!

[Tattersail_]

who's name don't thye know? If Calm can kick Karsa's arse then the bonehunters will be hard pressed fighting 1000s of them. I don't think it will go down this way though, yes they are going to Kolanse but I don't think they will fight the FA I think someone is already doing that although we don't know for sure. The FA already know the bonehunters are on their way, they "know" there will be betrayal as stated in the blurb/synopsis, so they in theory could already know the names of their enemies.

[Mcflury]

 Tattersail, on 21 October 2010 - 03:55 PM, said:

who's name don't thye know? If Calm can kick Karsa's arse then the bonehunters will be hard pressed fighting 1000s of them. I don't think it will go down this way though, yes they are going to Kolanse but I don't think they will fight the FA I think someone is already doing that although we don't know for sure. The FA already know the bonehunters are on their way, they "know" there will be betrayal as stated in the blurb/synopsis, so they in theory could already know the names of their enemies.

Karsa grew a lot since then. He might be able to kick some FA ass by now.

On another note: perhaps Karsa finds his army, brings it to Kolanse to fight off the FA (after all, Karsa wants to whipe out all humans, those pesky FA aren't going to steal away his fun!) and the Bonehunters just have to be there to do what they do best: witness.
(and perhaps Tavore has some other important shit to do as well, but whatever )

I doubt my theory will ever come true though I rather think the Snake will end up against the FA, and they will kick some FA ass, by making poems or some such stuff.

[worry]

Karsa doesn't want to wipe out all humans (anymore). He wants to destroy "civilization" which is an entirely different concept. He's essentially become an anarchist who wants to break the chains of structured society -- any formal hierarchy that isn't a pure meritocracy, as I take it.

[Abyss]

The name thing is a sideways ref to the Watch's exchange with an FA in DoD. The FA asks for the Watch's name. he refuses, says something about not giving it any power over him. Then he swordfucks it.

But this is meaningless, because the Inquisitors who pursued the Snake had no problem flattening large chunks of the Snake without individual names, and for that matter Badalle didn't need anyone's name when she struck back.

So no go with the OP's " subdue you by getting personal with your name," theory. Maybe they could, maybe that's what's implied, but every FA we've ever seen has subdued people by punching them in the brains.

The Inquisitors were absolutely different from other FA we've seen, and semed to be hybrids with access to Mockra, but again, we've been seeing mages use Mockra without peronal names since book 1.

Whether there is more to it or not, i don't think it has anything to do with the Bonehunters having a hard time figuring out just what Tavore is thinking.

[Sinisdar Toste]

when you say invigilators i'm going to think of a bunch of stubby, red silked bastards with karos invictads face on them... think you mean inquisitors

[Abyss]

 Sinisdar Toste, on 21 October 2010 - 07:21 PM, said:

when you say invigilators i'm going to think of a bunch of stubby, red silked bastards with karos invictads face on them... think you mean inquisitors

yah, them. Post editted.

[Excellence]

I think this will play a major factor in the next book. We're constantly being told Tavore is a mystery, inscrutable. For the first time, we've seen the Forkrul fight emphemerally by voice commands. Yes, they're physically superior to stock humans. Of course, Olong is in a class of his own. But we saw the Fork have toruble taking a sinle human in Dust of Dreams, when he should have slain the Derryn with ease.

It would seem, not knowing your soul strips from them their advantage over you. There is also the previous business of remembering fallen names that the Beddict bros now carried. Why would that be such a loss anyway for the surviving brood? Names can bind your soul, like the loch ness in that lake.

This is my 2 cents for the next book -- I think there will be somethingg on this regarding Tavore.

[HoosierDaddy]

 Excellence, on 21 October 2010 - 08:41 PM, said:

I think this will play a major factor in the next book. We're constantly being told Tavore is a mystery, inscrutable. For the first time, we've seen the Forkrul fight emphemerally by voice commands. Yes, they're physically superior to stock humans. Of course, Olong is in a class of his own. But we saw the Fork have toruble taking a sinle human in Dust of Dreams, when he should have slain the Derryn with ease.

I think you underestimate The Watch, and the typical old-being underestimating a "stock human" to their everlasting detriment is a tried and true Malazan trope.

Quote

It would seem, not knowing your soul strips from them their advantage over you. There is also the previous business of remembering fallen names that the Beddict bros now carried. Why would that be such a loss anyway for the surviving brood? Names can bind your soul, like the loch ness in that lake.

I agree that their magic could have some use and is there for a reason, but then how does that expand unto someone's name we've known since Book 1? As for why losing the fallen's names is such a big deal, considering that a major aspect of DoD and TCG is that the Bonehunter's story will go unwitnessed, and they and their sacrifice (I'm assuming) will become yet another fallen name, I think it has meaning in and of itself: "I was here. I did something. I existed."

Quote

This is my 2 cents for the next book -- I think there will be somethingg on this regarding Tavore.

Fair enough, but being "mysterious" is not the same as not being named. Unless Tavore Paran has a midden meaning in plain English, like Yeddan Dyrrg (sp), the two aren't the same.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 21 October 2010 - 08:53 PM

[Tatterdemalion]

Also, am I drunk, but isn't the Watch Tiste Andii? They're a bit more powerful than your average Tom, Dick or Harry.

[Tattersail_]

they aren't Tiste, they are a watered down version over millenia, they have some tiste blood but are also mixed with other races on Wu

[Abyss]

@Excellence - we know the power over names thing can be a factor. It would be interesting if Tavore's whole aloof thing was intended to give her an advantage over the FA. As far as we know the Invigilator's are limitted to kolanse and any FA elsewhere prefer to punch people in the brains rather than mess with them. It seems a stretch but SE has surprised us before.

You mention Brys' command of lost god names and i wonder if that will come into play... we have Fener sitting in a cave in Leth waiting for his big finish... i wonder if Brys' lost gods might now be called upon for one last hurrah.

And olong is a kind of tea.

As for Yedan Derryg...

 Tatterdemalion, on 22 October 2010 - 04:54 AM, said:

Also, am I drunk, but isn't the Watch Tiste Andii? They're a bit more powerful than your average Tom, Dick or Harry.

...

 Tattersail, on 22 October 2010 - 07:44 AM, said:

they aren't Tiste, they are a watered down version over millenia, they have some tiste blood but are also mixed with other races on Wu

The Shake appear to have been an Andii slave race that were kicked out of the Elder Warren when Kharakas fell apart. The ended up on the Malaz world and bred with humans and all three Tiste races, plus a K'chain matron's eggs in their water supply got some lizard into their genes as well.

The Watch and Twilight are of 'royal blood' - which is odd since DoD sugests the Shake were never 'royal' andii, tho that could have happened after. Anyhow those two appear to be exceptional and inheritted certain ascendent qualities - in his case way above human strength and speed and in hers her blood acts as a power-source for magic. I take his fighting and her command skills to be their own, not the result of anything else.

[Ulrik]

Watch was officers and commanders (elite) defending Shore...some uber damned soldiers...

“In Twilight was born Shadow.”

‘I was told none of this! I don’t believe you! What you’re saying makes no sense, Yedan. Shadow was the bastard get of Dark and Light—commanded by neither—’

‘Twilight, Shadow is everything we have ever known. Indeed, it is everywhere.’

‘But it was destroyed!’

‘Shattered, yes. Look at the beach. Those bones—they belong to the Shake. We were assailed from both sides—we didn’t stand a chance—that any of us survived at all is a miracle. Shadow was first shattered by the legions of Andii and the legions of Liosan. Purity cannot abide imperfection. In the eyes of purity, it becomes an abomination.’

She was shaking her head. ‘Shadow was the realm of the Edur—it has nothing to do with us, with the Shake.’

Yedan smiled—she could not even recall the last time he had done that and the sight of it jolted her. He nodded. ‘Our very own bastard get.’

She sank down to her knees in the bed of crumbled bone. She could hear the sea now, could hear the waves rolling down—and beneath all of that she could hear the deluged voices of the doomed behind the surface. He turned away when she did. But his children had no way out. We held against them, here. We stood and we died defending our realm. ‘Our blood was royal,’ she whispered.

Her brother was beside her now, and one hand rested on her shoulder. ‘Scar Bandaris, the last prince of the Edur. King, I suppose, by then. He saw in us the sins not of the father, but of the mother. He left us and took all the Edur with him. He told us to hold, to ensure his escape. He said it was all we deserved, for we were our mother’s children, and was she not the seducer and the father the seduced?’ He was silent for a moment, and then he grunted and said, ‘I wonder if the last of us left set out on his trail with vengeance in mind, or was it because we had nowhere else to go? By then, after all, Shadow had become the battlefield of every Elder force, not just the Tiste—it was being torn apart, with blood-soaked forces dividing every spoil, every territory—what were they called again? Yes, warrens. Every world was made an island, isolated in an ocean of chaos.’

Her eyes felt raw, but not a single tear sprang loose. ‘We could not have survived that,’ she said. ‘That assault you described. You called it a miracle that we survived, but I know how—though I never understood its meaning—not until your words today.’

Yedan said, ‘The Watch commanded the legions, and we held until we were told to withdraw. It’s said there were but a handful of us left by then, elite officers one and all. They were the Watch. The Road was open then—we but marched.’

[Otataral Toblakai]

 Tattersail, on 22 October 2010 - 07:44 AM, said:

they aren't Tiste, they are a watered down version over millenia, they have some tiste blood but are also mixed with other races on Wu

Actually, excerpts say that they are a mix of Kche Che Malle (cant spell it well), Tiste Edur, Tiste Liosan and Tiste Andii... I reckon that that makes them even more powerful..

[HoosierDaddy]

Only the witches have Che'Malle blood in them. It's implied, I think.

This post has been edited by H.D.: 30 October 2010 - 09:53 PM