[Blueiron]

I've been confused lately about certain ascendants' apparent ability to shapeshift without having to go through all the D'ivers and Soletaken rituals. For example, in GotM, it says Anomander pretended to be a Seguleh. In DoD, the Elders seem do this sort of thing all the time: Kilmandaros shows up to Errant's summonings as a Tel Akai ("She had taken upon herself the body of a Tel Akai, still towering above them but not quite as massive as before"), and Errant takes particular note of Mael showing up as an old man ("he had an old man's body and an old man's face...") and of Olar Ethil who "...had long ago chosen the body of an Imass woman..."
Draconus also pretends to be an Andii, according to Silchas ("He came to us in the guise of a duke from an outlying border fastness...")

So what's up with this? Who can do this? Why? What, if any, are the limitations on such abilities? For example, if Kilmandaros bred with a normal Tel Akai, would the offspring look like a normal Tel Akai? Do Gods have a "True Form?"

-Blueiron

[Seras]

I always assumed they (EGs and other magic-weilders) used Mockra or other magic to create an illusion (e.g Tayschrenn as Standard Bearer, the Rat Catcher's Guild taking on different identities, and so on), while not actually physically transforming into the entity.

As for your examples, Anomander is a Soletaken, so he's free to shift into whatever he wishes. Olar Ethil's form as an Imass Woman likely has something to do with her having a part in the Ritual of Tellan. Draconus' sounds like an illusion "he came to us in the guise of a duke". I'm at a loss as to how to explain Mael's and Kilmandaros' though...

Must needs do a re-read of DoD after finishing MT

[Blueiron]

Good point. I forgot about illusions...

-Blueiron, who is making a note that forgetting about illusions will get him killed.

[Aptorian]

Erayle, on 11 October 2010 - 11:24 PM, said:

I always assumed they (EGs and other magic-weilders) used Mockra or other magic to create an illusion (e.g Tayschrenn as Standard Bearer, the Rat Catcher's Guild taking on different identities, and so on), while not actually physically transforming into the entity.

As for your examples, Anomander is a Soletaken, so he's free to shift into whatever he wishes. Olar Ethil's form as an Imass Woman likely has something to do with her having a part in the Ritual of Tellan. Draconus' sounds like an illusion "he came to us in the guise of a duke". I'm at a loss as to how to explain Mael's and Kilmandaros' though...

Must needs do a re-read of DoD after finishing MT

I don't agree at all.

There's a big difference between the a human mage, a soletaken and the power of an Elder God.

A soletaken can not as far as we've seen just choose what ever form he wants when he wants. The only one we've heard of changing his form was what jackal guy I think.

Rake most likely used an illusion when he was pretending to be a human body guard (not a Seguleh). I doubt he veered into a human.

Olar Ethil was an Imass before the ritual of Tellan, in fact as far as I recall she helped fashion the ritual for them.

The Elder Gods, the old old ones, are not a race or a people. They are a manifestation of power. They embody the element that they are associated with, they take on the shape of the worshippers dreams and nightmares.

Maybe they're some Super Tier of Soletaken but I think it is easier to attribute their shape-shifting abilities to the fact that they can do practically anything with their power, including morphing at will.

[Tattersail_]

The majority of the people you mentioned here are Elder Gods, they can take whatever form they wish, it is a manifestation of will. Rake never did turn into a Segulah, he just visited them and had to duel loads of them because he wouldn't defer to any of them. He can only turn into a dragon, and any other illusions he may have performed they were just that an illusion

[The Tiger of Summer]

Blueiron, on 11 October 2010 - 09:18 PM, said:

I've been confused lately about certain ascendants' apparent ability to shapeshift without having to go through all the D'ivers and Soletaken rituals. For example, in GotM, it says Anomander pretended to be a Seguleh. In DoD, the Elders seem do this sort of thing all the time: Kilmandaros shows up to Errant's summonings as a Tel Akai ("She had taken upon herself the body of a Tel Akai, still towering above them but not quite as massive as before"), and Errant takes particular note of Mael showing up as an old man ("he had an old man's body and an old man's face...") and of Olar Ethil who "...had long ago chosen the body of an Imass woman..."
Draconus also pretends to be an Andii, according to Silchas ("He came to us in the guise of a duke from an outlying border fastness...")

So what's up with this? Who can do this? Why? What, if any, are the limitations on such abilities? For example, if Kilmandaros bred with a normal Tel Akai, would the offspring look like a normal Tel Akai? Do Gods have a "True Form?"

-Blueiron

...In Gardens of the Moon Anomander pretended to be a Seguleh... - Seguleh are just normal humans wearing masks. Andii look relatively human, so making slight adjustments to his form would have been peanuts... Slap on a mask and let your hair down, its time to mingle.

Bottom line is, any Elder god is going to be able to shapechange. They are ELDER GODS. Assuming a form is just a pleasantry so that they can commune with mortals and the like... Mael takes the form of an old man because thats what he chose, he wanted to be unnoticed and had a specific human drama that he wanted to take part it, and as such choosing a human form would allow him to fit into Letherii society. No point showing up as some towering Water Lord like Poseidon, because then you can't exactly become Tehol's manservant. Bugg is inconspicuous. Olar Ethil is a soletaken dragon, probably female, and at the time of her predominance the Imass were likely the status quo... again, she probably had a role to play at the time, and the Imass body would have been a great way to fit in. Its as simple as that. When you are an all powerful ascendant you can do these things. Like how Draconus summons bhederin out of nowhere for him and Pung to eat in DoD. Or Mael's ability to sustain himself and Tehol cooking things with no nutritional value whatsoever... it looks like dirt going down, probably even tastes like dirt, but when the dirt is cooked by an Elder God, it becomes chicken boullion

[Aptorian]

TigerOfSummer, on 12 October 2010 - 03:58 PM, said:

...In Gardens of the Moon Anomander pretended to be a Seguleh... - Seguleh are just normal humans wearing masks.

He did? Are you talking about the Fete? Because I thought he wore a dragon mask or something like that.

TigerOfSummer, on 12 October 2010 - 03:58 PM, said:

Andii look relatively human, so making slight adjustments to his form would have been peanuts... Slap on a mask and let your hair down, its time to mingle.

Andii do not look like humans. They are generally a foot taller, their eyes change color, they have midnight black skin, their facial bonestructure is different, On top of that Rake has white hair.

I think he just used Mocra.

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 12 October 2010 - 05:59 PM

[Abyss]

Elder gods can shapeshift however they want. In the course of DoD Kila shifts from something FA'esque to Thelomen. We've seen Mael as Bugg and as a partly blue man. Draconus was Andii and then he wasn't. It's not a question of what warren they used, it's just a question of power and they all have it in abundance. It doesn't matter whether Rake used Mokra or Kuralg Galain or Starvald Demelain to masquerade as a human for years. All that matter is that he has the power to do it. On top of that, we saw Krul send out 'Keruli', who appeared to be more an avatar than an actual shapeshifted body.

Shapeshifting in the soletaken/d'ivers sense is different in that it revolves around a fixed form, with some degree between forms possible as we've seen Rake (DoD flashback), Osserc (RCG prologue) and even Korbal Broach (MoI when QB picthed him thru a wall) do, but that's as far as that goes.

Ryllandaras is a significant exception for a few reasons.


All of which is to say, it's not as simple as Mokra, but that's an option.

- Abyss, has no illusions.

[Blueiron]

Thanks guys. I kinda thought it was just eldergoddery, but you never know.

@ aptorian: the Anomander thing wasn't at the fête, it was someone talking about the time he went to the seguleh island. I can't find the quote right now, but I think it basically says that since he didn't know about their culture, he just pretended to be human and wore a seguleh-esque mask.

-Blueiron's Dictionary: eldergoddery 1 (v) any action an Elder God can perform because they're Elder Gods, and you're not. All that shapeshifting stuff is just eldergoddery
2 (n) the mess resulting from an Elder God mucking around in the vicinity. Draconus left a swath of eldergoddery in his wake.

[Sinisdar Toste]

the rake v. segulah story comes to us from lady envy in MoI. i think she says he takes a human form