[Abalieno]

Since next week on Tor.com Erikson will answer some questions about GotM, I'll try to bring on one of the major things that I continue to wonder about in that book. I'm pretty sure I have almost no chances of getting answers but I'll definitely *try*.

I'm posting here all I gathered, so that maybe someone smarter than me could explain everything neatly and clear the path from continuous suspects of GotMism and retcons. I really hope that if Erikson decides to answer some questions about plot points he'll give us the official interpretation about those GotMism so that we can stop desperately trying to figure out some way to explain them.

So, if you have a better theory, speak up before I send the question over to Tor.

--
We tried to figure out an ideal progression so that the various steps seem coherent, but either way one looks at it there are aspects that don't quite match. So we'd like to hear an "official" take on the whole thing. Are there elements that can be marked officially as mistakes so that we can put at least those out of the picture?

The elements we have:

In Chapter 1 of GotM, before Sorry's possession, it's ST who forces Cotillion's hand. Sorry seems to be Cotillion's plan, as is the desire of vegeance (ST seems more dismissive/unfocused).

Their master turned and said to the man beside her, 'Something to gnaw on Laseen's mind.' He giggled again.
'Must you complicate things?' the other answered wearily.
The short man stiffened. 'They are within sight of the column.' He cocked his head. From up the road came the scream of horses. He sighed. 'You've reached a decision, Cotillion?'
The other grunted amusedly. 'Using my name, Ammanas, means you've just decided for me. We can hardly leave her here now, can we?'
'Of course we can, old friend. just not breathing.'
Cotillion looked down on the girl. 'No,' he said quietly, 'she'll do.'
The fishergirl bit her lip. Still clutching Rigga's candle, she took another step back, her wide eyes darting from one man to the other.
'Pity,' Ammanas said.
Cotillion seemed to nod, then he cleared his throat and said, 'It'll take time.'
An amused note entered Ammanas's reply. 'And have we time? True vengeance needs the slow, careful stalking of the victim. Have you forgotten the pain she once delivered us? Laseen's back is against the wall already. She might fall without our help. Where would be the satisfaction in that?'
Cotillion's response was cool and dry. 'You've always underestimated the Empress. Hence our present circumstances… No.' He gestured at the fishergirl. 'We'll need this one. Laseen's raised the ire of Moon's Spawn, and that's a hornet's nest if ever there was one. The timing is perfect.'

In Chapter 3, (the very end) after Sorry kills Paran, we have ST and Cotillion discussing near Paran's lifeless body. In this instance it's again Cotillion who urges ST to stay focused on the revenge on Laseen.

'I don't believe in coincidences.'
Again came the giggle. 'Nor do I. Two years ago we began a game of our own. A simple settling of old scores. It seems we have stumbled into a wholly different game here in Pale.'
'Whose?'
'I shall have that answer soon enough.'
'Don't get distracted, Ammanas. Laseen remains our target, and th collapse of the Empire she rules but never earned.'
I 'I have, as always, supreme confidence in you, Cotillion.'

In Chapter 15, we see Shadowthrone facing Anomander Rake and Cotillion's plan with Sorry coming to an end. Again ST claims it's all relative to Cotillion and that he's not directly involved.

A sigh issued from the hooded darkness of the god's face. 'Ah, well. As I said, I am not involved. However, the Rope is.'
'Recall him,' the Tiste Andii commanded. 'Now.'
'He will be severely displeased, Anomander Rake. His plans extend far beyond Darujhistan, seeking to reach the Malazan throne itself.'

'I fight my own battles,' Rake growled. 'And I'd rather deal with Laseen on the Malazan throne than with a servant of Shadow. Recall him.'
'One last point,' Shadowthrone said, a giggle escaping him, 'I am not responsible for whatever actions the Rope might take against you.'
A smile entered Rake's tone. 'Convince him of the wise course, Shadowthrone. I have no patience for your games. If I am pushed, by either you, your Hounds, or by the Rope, I'll make no distinction. I will assail the Shadow Realm, and you are invited to try to stop me.'
'You lack all subtlety,' the god said, sighing. 'Very well.' He paused and shadows swirled around him. 'He has been recalled. Forcibly extracted, as it were. The field is yours once again, Anomander Rake.

In Chapter 23, Paran faces Cotillion. It seems the ultimate intent is preserved, but Cotillion will now look for other ways to realize it.

'You should have left us to our work, Captain, since you now hate the Empress so.'

'Now what?'
'Now?' Cotillion seemed surprised. 'Now I start again.'
'Another girl like her?'
'No, the plan was flawed.'

Considering this, it seems that Sorry was intended to have a role in the possible rebellion on Genabackis. Sorry specifically gets close to the Bridgeburners and it's because she's there that Cotillion thinks he may find some allies, to then turn them against the empress. "Old guard", so maybe still faithful to the Emperor. This whole possibility is also confirmed by Laseen's perspective since she doubts of the loyalty of Dujek and wants Whiskeyjack dead (this is factual, since at the end of GotM Lorn still seeks a way to take out WJ).

What doesn't quite fit is this: Sorry's behavior has been quite extreme for the whole time. If Cotillion sought to get some control over the Bridgeburners, or even lead the rebellion back against Laseen, then he acted in the worst possible way. He actively alienated them. The other aspect that doesn't fit is that Kalam describes Sorry as "pure evil", yet Cotillion isn't so, and the "necessity" of Sorry's behavior may be quite complicate to completely justify.

Now I continue following the next three books but relatively free of spoilers since these are just sparse elements detached from the specific storylines.

At the end of Deadhouse Gates we see Shadowthrone being somewhat "accomodating" toward Laseen, either meaning that the plot of the story was changed to fit the rest of the series (and so a GotMism/mistake), or Shadowthrone changed his mind/reorganized his priorities along the way.

In Memories of Ice we see Whiskeyjack voicing many times his suspects that Laseen wanted him dead, even against Dujek attempts to persuade him of the contrary. This is somewhat ambivalent/ambiguous. What is Laseen true position toward WJ?

In House of Chains we see Cotillion involved, apparently without ST involvement, with Kalam, Lostara and Cutter.

Cutter asks some direct questions that we readers desperately want to ask Erikson, and Cotillion is WAY too evasive. I can imagine Erikson reading this loooong "question" I'm doing here and having the exact same reaction: "you force me to reconsider my offer" (of answering your questions).

This also opens a completely new perspective: using Sorry to somewhat sabotage the empire attack on Darujhistan. But it's not acceptable because we know for sure that the plan involved directly vengeance on Laseen. Maybe it's both, wrecking the empire army and campaign/expansion (so vengeance on Laseen), while serving other incidental purposes like keeping Darujhistan independent (but Sorry takes no actions that way in GotM, and was just about to take Oponn out of the picture, the only god who seemed interested to preserve the city).

Or maybe it's just Cotillion lying to Cutter just to win his sympathy, which is maybe too shameless.

'I'd like some questions answered.'
'Indeed.'
'Yes. Such as, why did you and Shadowthrone scheme to destroy Laseen and the empire? Was it just a desire for revenge?'
The god seemed to flinch within his robes, and Cutter felt unseen eyes harden. 'Oh my,' Cotillion drawled, 'you force me to reconsider my offer.'
'I would know,' the Daru pressed on, 'so I can understand what you did… did to Apsalar.'
'You demand that your patron god justify his actions?'
'It wasn't a demand. Just a question.' Cotillion said nothing for a long moment. The fire was slowly dying, embers pulsing with the breeze. Cutter sensed the presence of a second Hound somewhere in the darkness beyond, moving restlessly.
'Necessities,' the god said quietly. 'Games are played, and what may appear precipitous might well be little more than a feint. Or perhaps it was the city itself, Darujhistan, that would serve our purposes better if it remained free, independent. There are layers of meaning behind every gesture, every gambit. I will not explain myself any further than that, Cutter.'

In the scene with Lostara instead we see another intent being folly shown: the empire is now convenient to ST and Cotillion's purposes (its success is crucial to what we seek). Has this intent popped up along the way and AFTER the events in GotM, or was it there the whole time? Maybe ST wanted to take down Laseen's empire and then use what was left for his own purposes, but this does not quite match again with Sorry's excessive behavior and how she drived the Bridgeburners away instead of toward her.

Once again it is possible that Cotillion is lying only to try to tell Lostara what she wants to hear (so in Cutter's case that he wanted to save Darujhistan, and in Lostara's case that he wants to support the empire). But he also expresses interest in the Bridgeburners, which justifies again why Sorry was sent along with them: because Cotillion wanted to "observe" if they were still loyal to who ruled the empire before (again contrasting with Sorry's alienating behavior).

'That is not the loyalty I would call upon with you,' Cotillion replied.
She was silent, struggling to fit sense to her thoughts, to his words. Cotillion… was Dancer. Shadowthrone… must have been Kellanved, the Emperor! She scowled. 'My loyalty is to the Malazan Empire. The Empire—'
'Very good,' he replied. 'I am pleased.'
'And now you're going to try to convince me that the Empress Laseen should not be the empire's true ruler—'
'Not at all. She is welcome to it. But, alas, she is in some trouble right now, isn't she? She could do with some… help.'
'She supposedly assassinated you!' Lostara hissed. 'You and Kellanved both!' She betrayed you.
Cotillion simply shrugged again. 'Everyone had their… appointed tasks. Lostara, the game being played here is far larger than any mortal empire. But the empire in question - your empire - well, its success is crucial to what we seek. And, were you to know the fullest extent of recent, distant events, you would need no convincing that the Empress sits on a tottering throne right now.'
'Yet even you betrayed the Emper—Shadowthrone. Did you not just tell me—'
'Sometimes, I see further than my dear companion. Indeed, he remains obsessed with desires to see Laseen suffer—I have other ideas, and while he may see them as party to his own, there is yet no pressing need to disabuse him of that notion. But I will not seek to deceive you into believing I am all-knowing. I admit to having made grave errors, indeed, to knowing the poison of suspicion. Quick Ben. Kalam. Whiskeyjack. Where did their loyalty truly reside? Well, I eventually got my answer, but I am not yet decided whether it pleases me or troubles me. There is one danger that plagues ascendants in particular, and that is the tendency to wait too long. Before acting, before stepping - if you will - from the shadows.' He smiled again. 'I would make amends for past, at times fatal, hesitation. And so here I stand before you, Lostara, to ask for your help.'

This is basically the whole thing as it developed. The aspects that do not quite match are mostly two. The first is Sorry's behavior under Cotillion's control. Both because Cotillion isn't shown as so utterly evil and because that behavior seemed antithetic to Sorry's purpose (winning back the Bridgeburners, or at least WJ's squad). The second aspect is the obvious switch of intentions, with ST becoming much more accomodating toward Laseen and abandon the desire of vengeance.

[Hetan]

You are making this complicated. Sorry/Cotillions behaviour is quite deliberate in order to keep the squad at a distance and give Cotillion the space/freedom to move around. The whole squad feels uneasy around her and are happier when she's not there - that's mentioned a few times, which is usually a good indicator that one should pay attention. I also don't think that Cotillion/ST know who is and who is not loyal to them any more - ah, just read that bit in your post above, but that was also has been mentioned a few times.

Regarding ST and Cotillions changes in motive, there can be do doubt that Cots still wanted revenge against Surly, but ST now has other goals and is focussed on those.

[Abalieno]

Yep, I'm aware that Cotillion wanted to observe them and figure out if they were still loyal and could be "used" somehow. In fact Cotillion uses directly Kalam in HoC.

But if Sorry's behavior is deliberate, what's the purpose? Beside killing Claws she isn't doing a whole lot. Maybe it's just Laseen that, without any contact within the BB, is suspecting that Sorry may lead a rebellion. While Sorry is instead simply focused to gather some elements about the empire and the campaign now that even Rake is involved. Still, the plan is very muddy.

[Hetan]

The thing is you are reading Gardens of the Moon on Tor currently and so to use information from later books out of context isn't helping as their goals change along the way as I said above. What they started out to do in GotM is a whole different ball game to where the story ends up and until we get to the end game I can't help thinking you're jumping the gun a little bit.

Quote

Cotillion simply shrugged again. 'Everyone had their… appointed tasks. Lostara, the game being played here is far larger than any mortal empire. But the empire in question - your empire - well, its success is crucial to what we seek. And, were you to know the fullest extent of recent, distant events, you would need no convincing that the Empress sits on a tottering throne right now.'

And don't forget regardless of how much you may like Cotillion as character and think his behavious is out of context, he is still the master assassin and thats not the friendliest profession in the world.

[Tattersail_]

At the same time Sorry's task was never fulfilled, Rake put a stop to it, if Rake didn't intervene they may still have changed Sorry's perspective once their plans change.

[Abalieno]

But I don't want to understand their long term plan, I want to understand their actions in GotM

Specifically Sorry's deal and then at what point they changed their opinion about the empire and decided to leave Laseen alone.

[Silencer]

As things come to a head, plans change. Now, to me it is not necessarily the case that the 'revenge against Laseen' plot was an honest one. It may have merely been a smokescreen. Remember the quote in GotM, something about Shadow displaying an obsession with the Malazan Empire?

If everyone thinks you are focused on a mortal empire, on personal crusades, you can surprise them when it turns out you actually have entirely different priorities and plans in action. Now, I hate to propose, without evidence, that Shadowthrone and Cotillion are the penultimate Chessmasters of the series, but it's certainly something to keep in mind.

And let's be kind of specific here - I'm going to have to spoil this because it's semi-RotCG related (large spoilers if you haven't read it):

Spoiler

Consider that, throughout the rest of the books we have seen exactly the kind of destabilization Cotillion talked about in GotM. The crusade against Laseen - and bear in mind that she DID die in the end - is not necessarily a personal vendetta. Instead, it's an attempt to protect the interests of the Malazan Empire as it needs to be strong (or something) for the coming storm.

And certainly keep in mind that these guys are players from way back. Just because they say something to one person (like, say, Lostara) does not mean that such reflects the truth, or that their own, supposedly private conversations do either. After all, Paran may have been bleeding out on the cobbles, but they may yet have been careful not to reveal anything relevant. Once again, it's one of those things I don't want to rely on heavily, but I certainly take anything they say with a grain of salt.

The problem, then, is one of uncertainty. Once you accept that Cotillion and Shadowthrone are most likely lying, you have to consider that every single time we hear them speak it could all be a lie. It becomes impossible to tell the truth from the falsehoods until you see inside their head, or until everything comes to a close and it is revealed what the whole plan was all along. So while this is obviously frustrating, and makes the series prone to GotMisms, I'm sure when we look back (after many book's worth of wild speculation) we will see where it all came from. And if not, well, we'll have to live with it, I guess.

There are obviously some situations - say, when they are in private - when you can assume they are being more truthful...but even so, if there is even the remotest possibility of someone listening in, that kind of goes out the window, yes?

In any case, you have a guy called Shadowthrone, and a man who is the Patron God of Assassins, both of whom have a history of hiding the truth, lying, murdering, manipulating, pulling strings, and so on. How can you take anything they say as indicative of their true motives? :S

[Braden]

At the end of the day, unless you’ve had a chance to think like an underhand-assassin-acendant-devious-demi-God this is going to be hard to grasp (hmmm…having played an “underhand-assassin-devious-Drow” for about 8 years might help me?)



My PoV is that the initial plan started out clearly as direct revenge on one person (Surley) but circumstances changed dramatically even in GoTM, a new, deeper threat was perceived by both Cotillion and Shadowthrone, perhaps more by ST of course…even though they foresee it before most others (apart from the Elder Gods perhaps) still means the plans they had, needed to adapt.



They saw that a strong Malazan Empire would be a good base, a benefit to the world as a whole, and in the end its their Empire (as they still see it) and they don’t want to see its destruction.



I still believe that they ultimately want to make a play back into the Empire anyway (my opinion..not read all the books..please don’t flame!).



Besides, perhaps Kalams own plans fell more effectively into what they wanted? And using a willing pawn is better than directly controlling an unwilling one. Fact that Kalam changed his plans, or concluded he needed not to follow them through at the very last moment, is a mix of mortal choice and perhaps a “nudge” along a better path which again fell better into how Cotillion and Shadowthrone, in the end, needed?

[Abyss]

We're in the HoC thread so restricting myself to events up to that book, ST/Cots' plan involving Sorry in GotM was a feint. It led other players to think that High House Shadow, then still relatively new and possibly vulnerable, was focused on revenge, rather than a bigger plan.

Some excellent points raised upthread, but ultimately this explanation works for me.

[Tattersail_]

Abyss this is best explanation imo. have rep!

[James Hetfield]

OK, my thoughts.

ST & Cott obviously see the big picture. They were at the last chaining. I am going to take an assumptive guess here. Ammanas and Dancer were in cahoots from the beggining. They saw the need for armies, an empire and Gods to get in on the whole Crippled God thingy. How did they know? Perhaps the Azath? idk

They carved out an empire across several continents until finally Surly does 'em in and they ascend. They presumedly lost control of the Imass First Throne as well as well as the Empire. To use this empire for the upcoming convergence/convergences they needed to put someone on the throne they could use/trust to do the right thing and understand the situation. Answer: Whiskeyjack

Sorry was there to help make sure Whiskeyjack survived and would be in a postion to take over the empire after Laseen's demise and probably to protect Fiddler as well. Rake had other plans for Sorry and ST and Cott had to revise plans.

Whiskeyjack dies. Change of plan again. Use Tavore/bonehunters. QB and Kalam are obviously working with Shadow in some things. Without all the Malazan armies and High Mages they had originally planned for ST and Cott had to make deals with Gods.

Whether or not Tavore is working for/against Shadow is unknown but I believe her army with Quick Ben and Fiddler are somehow doing what Shadowthrone had planned all along.

End plan? Who knows? Are ST and Cott the ones pulling all the strings? Probably not.

lol, all speculation Crazy Theory I guess

[Abyss]

couple of thoughts on your reasoning...

James Hetfield, on 29 September 2010 - 08:15 PM, said:

OK, my thoughts.

ST & Cott obviously see the big picture. They were at the last chaining. I am going to take an assumptive guess here. Ammanas and Dancer were in cahoots from the beggining. They saw the need for armies, an empire and Gods to get in on the whole Crippled God thingy. How did they know? Perhaps the Azath?

Agreed. EVERYTHINg was a part of their master plan.

Quote

They carved out an empire across several continents until finally Surly does 'em in and they ascend. They presumedly lost control of the Imass First Throne as well as well as the Empire.

Strictly based on events up to HoC, Surly seized control after Kel and Dancer's extended absence, so it couldn't have come as that much of a surprise, and the point is made in GotM and MoI that the ME has avoided affiliating itself with any gods.

The presence of Kalam's orphans at the first throne when Trull and Onrack arrive sugests Kel/Dancer never really lost control of the First Throne.

Quote

To use this empire for the upcoming convergence/convergences they needed to put someone on the throne they could use/trust to do the right thing and understand the situation. Answer: Whiskeyjack

There is a certain logic to this, but i wonder if the whole 'we need the best people in the field' thing justifies Laseen in control and WJ exactly where he was in MoI.

Quote

Sorry was there to help make sure Whiskeyjack survived and would be in a postion to take over the empire after Laseen's demise and probably to protect Fiddler as well. Rake had other plans for Sorry and ST and Cott had to revise plans.

Whether it was a feint or a realistic attempt to take a shot at Laseen, Sorry was not there to protect anyone.

Quote

Whiskeyjack dies. Change of plan again. Use Tavore/bonehunters. QB and Kalam are obviously working with Shadow in some things. Without all the Malazan armies and High Mages they had originally planned for ST and Cott had to make deals with Gods...

I like this reasoning, tho is suspect St/Cots would have sought allies among the powers in any event.

[Abalieno]

The "feint" thing can only be a retcon. It doesn't work. What may work is the revenge plan that is turned into something else along the way.

The feint doesn't work, or at least not for Cotillion, because the two talk to each other in front of a girl they are going to possess. They don't lie, and one good proof of why they don't lie is that Shadowthrone is using their true names in order to force Cotillion's hand.

The ambivalence of plan is never mentioned in the whole GotM, so I'd rather believe that it's Erikson himself who changed his idea as he moved on.

[Abalieno]

The explanation about WJ would be extremely convenient since it explains a lot in GotM. For example why the Adjunct arrives and pacifies the situation between Dujek and Tayschrenn (Dujek is not our enemy) while she's still set to take out WJ.

Also in MoI we have Dujek trying to convince that both Tayschrenn and Laseen never wanted the Bridgeburners dead, but WJ continues to think his own persona is a special case and that Laseen wanted HIM dead (which also may be liked to the reason why he was demoted, I don't know if we get flashbacks of that).

The problem with this other theory is:
1- Never mentioned at all in the first 3 books. Quick Ben and Kalam plan SEEMS to be about putting WJ right there. But they never even hint about it.
2- Again, Sorry was too unfriendly if her purpose included getting close to WJ and Bridgeburners.

Also, Kalam agrees to work for Cotillion in HoC. Yet he was the one freaked out by Sorry and called her "true evil". That part alone can't be easily explained.

[Silencer]

Abalieno, on 29 September 2010 - 08:40 PM, said:

The "feint" thing can only be a retcon. It doesn't work. What may work is the revenge plan that is turned into something else along the way.

The feint doesn't work, or at least not for Cotillion, because the two talk to each other in front of a girl they are going to possess. They don't lie, and one good proof of why they don't lie is that Shadowthrone is using their true names in order to force Cotillion's hand.

The ambivalence of plan is never mentioned in the whole GotM, so I'd rather believe that it's Erikson himself who changed his idea as he moved on.

No, it does work. You're ignoring the fact that these two were established characters BEFORE the books. It doesn't *have* to be a retcon at all. Just because they were speaking in front of Sorry doesn't mean they weren't lying - what on earth makes you think that? You have to consider that the 'forcing their hand' thing is just a game to make sure that Sorry knows who possessed her, to set up future events.

Abalieno, on 29 September 2010 - 08:56 PM, said:

Also, Kalam agrees to work for Cotillion in HoC. Yet he was the one freaked out by Sorry and called her "true evil". That part alone can't be easily explained.

Yes, it can. Cotillion as we see him later in the novels is not exactly a monster, and Dancer never was - at least not amongst his friends, and Kalam would have known this through WJ at the least. So, Kalam is easily able to reconcile the fact that Cots was just acting, something you really need to consider.

Let's add into this that you do NOT want the Patron God of Assassins as your enemy. You also see in him an ally on your path to Laseen. What's wrong with this?

[haroos]

what, you just sit and copy word for word the whole bit ?
how can u keep the pages from closing when you type ?

[Abalieno]

Silencer, on 29 September 2010 - 09:34 PM, said:

Just because they were speaking in front of Sorry doesn't mean they weren't lying - what on earth makes you think that? You have to consider that the 'forcing their hand' thing is just a game to make sure that Sorry knows who possessed her, to set up future events.

I would have an hard time believing this even if it was Erikson himself telling me.

It just makes no sense. Sorry, the girl, never comes into play. She probably doesn't even remember that scene, nor she would have any reason to tell anyone.

"Characters lie" is one excuse used too often to justify plot that doesn't make sense.

[Silencer]

On the other hand, it's also true. I know you've got a thing against Erikson for having characters that don't tell the truth, but if you want to just disregard it when it's pretty much the only answer to your questions, you can't expect people to come up with other scenarios indefinitely until you find one that pleases you.

Read up the thread. Pretty much everyone up there has said, in some way, shape or fashion, that the whole thing was a farce and that these two characters are liars. Going into denial about it because it's "too convenient" or doesn't fit your idea of what a "normal" author would do isn't the way to deal with it.

And Sorry does come into play. She just changes in between. While it's true that she likely remembers nothing, would YOU take the chance that she does remember you discussing all your most devious plans and then sets out to ruin them because you possessed her as a child? I know I wouldn't. O.o

[Tattersail_]

As Silencer said. Just to add, what if Sorry was captured by Tayschrenn for example. He may have ways and means of extracting this information from her, necessary precaution from Ammanas and Cotillion.

[Spiridon_Deannis]

Hello and everybody !

Once again - this gentleman is creating issues...but has not read beyond HoC. So my response to him would not be in terms of *complicated or whatever*, but RAFO, RAFO, RAFO !!!! and then...let´s discuss.

I simply cannot abide literary laziness...and this gentleman is as lazy as they get.

Sorry about this...but DARN !!!