[sting01]

Zenstrive, on 06 March 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

Kanese S, on 06 March 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Atheist forums? That's kind of an odd feeling to get, given the very active pantheon in the Malaz world.

Well, the notions that gods are useless, gods are shaped by followers, gods probably don't care, gods are this, gods are that....feels like reading atheist historian writings

Hi,

Personally I am not an atheist, but a catholic , my mother familly have even a Pope amongst (His Holliness Calixtus 2).

Still, when I study my own faith (historical study), I do agree said faith and the credo attached to it (Canon laws) have heavily changed from centuries to centuries. We are talking about celibacy of clerk/priest; we are talking about transmigration of souls, we are talking about the very self nature of Jesus Christ (did the godly part of it equal, less or more than the human part?) What about the 'filioque' into the Credo prayer?

So , 200 years after his death, Christ was a man (basically) touched by a way or another by God (the Father) and the holly spirit (and what about the very nature of said Holly Spirit?) then about 1000 years after his death, Men decided (becaus Priest Pope Bishops are only men!) he was the Son of God itself!

If that is not a well know way of follower shaping a God, then I am ready to become a Protestant or worst going to be Reformed (jokking, no offense intended, anyway I showed the very stupidity of my own religion).

For about the usefulness of God; still Jesus itself did tought us : Help yourself, and God will help you! Somehow , if I am able to do it, why rely on Him; and anyway if I am not able to do it He will do nothing!

Far to be atheist; I do believe the author pointed on acommon flaw of every human religion : after a while the original message delivered to us get mix , or by cher stupidity, or by self serving interest, or for exemple by loosing the reference points that were obvious at the moment but became mangled in translation or in time (jokes on blegium people or swiss people during the 60' were numerous and made sense; but they would be not understood today by a young french who never ever knew the French Franc way stronger than the Swiss Franc; or who amongst us have ever met a philistin or samaritain???????????????
And still we do use those words to design a concept!

[Kanese S's]

Zenstrive, on 06 March 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

Kanese S, on 06 March 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Atheist forums? That's kind of an odd feeling to get, given the very active pantheon in the Malaz world.

Well, the notions that gods are useless, gods are shaped by followers, gods probably don't care, gods are this, gods are that....feels like reading atheist historian writings

Just more like ancient pantheons than our more familiar concept of a deity that's all-knowing, all-powerful, and benevolent.

[Black Market Baby]

So does that mean that Red Mask = John Walker Lindh?

[Kanese S's]

Zenstrive, on 06 March 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

Kanese S, on 06 March 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

Atheist forums? That's kind of an odd feeling to get, given the very active pantheon in the Malaz world.

Well, the notions that gods are useless, gods are shaped by followers, gods probably don't care, gods are this, gods are that....feels like reading atheist historian writings

Or the writings of a historian who's familiar with the attitude taken by ancient, polytheistic cultures towards their gods. The idea of a deity being perfect could be somewhat a trait of our culture having been mainly monotheistic for quite a few centuries. Many ancient cultures saw their deities as flawed, possessed of... quirky... personalities, and sometimes blatantly destructive and capricious. Even the ones who were "good" were often seen as having their downsides.


The whole bit with gods being shaped by their followers... well, someone who has studied religion in various cultures might come to that idea. Take for example Isis. A deity of ancient Egypt very closely associated with the Nile River. After the Roman conquest, adopted by groups within the Empire, with a worship and belief structure not really the same as the original in Egypt. Then there's Yahweh, a deity whose depiction differs and has differed greatly depending on which worshipers one listens to.

[Kanese S's]

Black Market Baby, on 12 August 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

So does that mean that Red Mask = John Walker Lindh?

No, more like a European going over to the side of indigenous tribes in North America.

[JheckHunter]

I'm going to be a lone dissenter I guess. Not surprising really as most people that enjoy fantasy and sci-fi in my experience skew very leftward and have about the worst opinions possible of anything or anyone that doesn't value exactly what they do but I digress. While Midnight Tides and Reapers Gale are two of the very best books in the Fallen series I have to say that in my opinion the political commentary in them is the absolute worst part of the books. It is the type of stuff you get taught in elite liberal universities. There is nothing unique or refreshing in it its been done 1,000,0000 times before and much better even though I disagree with the vast majority of it. I'm not saying you can't agree with it I'm just telling you that in the real world outside of a fantasy message board there are literally millions of people that would disagree with SE's commentary. The idea that United States is like Lether is laughable to me. The only way it is anything like the United States would be like a reflection of the US in a fun house mirror or how a progressive from another country ding ding SE views America. Yes we drown people here who can't pay there debts. And how do you get debts exactly? The last time I checked you can't rack up debt unless you actually spend money that you do not have. I understand its more of a metaphor then a direct comparison but to me its ridiculous regardless. I mean I could go on and on about all the other things he lashes into like the stock market, how he attacks the importance of the individual, how being productive and amassing wealth legally is bad and nothing but greed etc but really it would be a waste of time. I just think that those parts of these two books is pretty much absolute garbage and almost made me stop reading the series. I also am astounded about the tea party comments in this thread. Its clear that people are totally uninformed about the tea party. I guess we still have people that believe all the disproven stories about racist comments and people being on spit stuff at rallies that was debunked years ago. I have been to Tea Party events and your average Tea Party member is a middle class American who wants low taxes for everyone and wants a balanced budget and some kind of fiscal sanity in the United States. You can try to create the boogeyman out of that if you want but that doesn't change the truth. Yep, some middle class white guy who makes 70k a year as an accountant who wants a balanced budget now thats a domestic terrorist for you lol. I apologise if this is too rantish but this board really is an echo chamber for topics like this. Everyone just swallows this stuff lock stock and barrell it seems.

This post has been edited by JheckHunter: 12 September 2012 - 05:44 PM

[worry]

Yah it's like we're all mindless drones with no real world experience, and I for one want to thank you for enlightening us with yours.

[worry]

Don't count on the rest of these mouth-foamed mongrels to be so gracious though. They get above their stations and don't quite appreciate the scraps.

[Defiance]

Steven Erikson's goal while writing Malazan Book of the Fallen has never been to give people concrete answers.

You may disagree with the social/political commentary in Midnight Tides and Reaper's Gale, but that's fine. It's a character who is presenting that perspective, and it's foolish to make the assumption that a character always speaks with an author's voice (if that were the case, then we should all go rape people and have sex with the dead).

Lether was never meant to be a commentary on the United States or capitalism.

[King Lear]

worrywort, on 12 September 2012 - 07:48 PM, said:

Yah it's like we're all mindless drones with no real world experience, and I for one want to thank you for enlightening us with yours.

Yeap I'm one of those! I don't even have access to the internet to look up information and factcheck for myself! Secretly, I'm a robot! You can tell from my excess use of exclamation marks!

[Kanese S's]

JheckHunter, on 12 September 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

I'm going to be a lone dissenter I guess. Not surprising really as most people that enjoy fantasy and sci-fi in my experience skew very leftward and have about the worst opinions possible of anything or anyone that doesn't value exactly what they do but I digress. While Midnight Tides and Reapers Gale are two of the very best books in the Fallen series I have to say that in my opinion the political commentary in them is the absolute worst part of the books. It is the type of stuff you get taught in elite liberal universities. There is nothing unique or refreshing in it its been done 1,000,0000 times before and much better even though I disagree with the vast majority of it. I'm not saying you can't agree with it I'm just telling you that in the real world outside of a fantasy message board there are literally millions of people that would disagree with SE's commentary. The idea that United States is like Lether is laughable to me. The only way it is anything like the United States would be like a reflection of the US in a fun house mirror or how a progressive from another country ding ding SE views America. Yes we drown people here who can't pay there debts. And how do you get debts exactly? The last time I checked you can't rack up debt unless you actually spend money that you do not have. I understand its more of a metaphor then a direct comparison but to me its ridiculous regardless. I mean I could go on and on about all the other things he lashes into like the stock market, how he attacks the importance of the individual, how being productive and amassing wealth legally is bad and nothing but greed etc but really it would be a waste of time. I just think that those parts of these two books is pretty much absolute garbage and almost made me stop reading the series. I also am astounded about the tea party comments in this thread. Its clear that people are totally uninformed about the tea party. I guess we still have people that believe all the disproven stories about racist comments and people being on spit stuff at rallies that was debunked years ago. I have been to Tea Party events and your average Tea Party member is a middle class American who wants low taxes for everyone and wants a balanced budget and some kind of fiscal sanity in the United States. You can try to create the boogeyman out of that if you want but that doesn't change the truth. Yep, some middle class white guy who makes 70k a year as an accountant who wants a balanced budget now thats a domestic terrorist for you lol. I apologise if this is too rantish but this board really is an echo chamber for topics like this. Everyone just swallows this stuff lock stock and barrell it seems.

Despite your apparent aversion to paragraphs, I did read your post.

I have the worst possible opinions of anybody who doesn't value exactly the same things I do? Well, you, sir, seem to have one of the worst possible opinions of me, so where does that leave us? Turnabout's fair play. I spent eight years being called a traitor for my views. Now you're upset because it's your turn to get the shit end of the stick.

You seem very derisive towards "elite liberal universities." What, exactly, is your problem with education and research?

All fantasy is a reflection of our world in a fun-house mirror. Authors can never truly separate themselves from the world in which they live, and so all fantasy worlds take much from ours.

Your argument that millions of people would disagree with SE's commentary falls flat due to the fact that there are millions of people who would disagree with you.

Amassing wealth legally can be incredibly damaging to a society and to an economy. When you have a very wide gap between rich and poor, you create a political underclass with very little to lose, and this creates instability.

The stock market can be a very powerful tool for generating massive economic prosperity or for wreaking havoc, or both.

I got debts by getting an education. Apparently you think that getting an education should be the exclusive domain of the wealthy, since apparently it's terrible to get any debts? Interesting position. Rather feudal, really.

You've been to SOME tea party events. You haven't been to all of them.

Budgets should never be balanced. That is not fiscal sanity. During fat times the government should be running a surplus, perhaps using the extra money to pay down any debts, and during lean times, it should be running a deficit to get out of the recession. On average over decades, it should balance out.

And no, I won't create a bogeyman. That is, after all, something the tea party and republicans are far more talented at.

[worry]

See what I mean Jheck? It's like these peasants refuse to imagine what it's like to make 70k a year and have no debt. Where's the dang empathy is what I want to know.

Just read this:
"The argument was this: a civilization shackled to the strictures of excessive control on its populace, from choice of religion through to the production of goods, will sap the will and the ingenuity of its people-for whom such qualities are no longer given sufficient incentive or reward. At face value, this is accurate enough. Trouble arrives when the opponents to such a system institute its extreme opposite, where individualism becomes godlike and sacrosanct, and no greater service to any other ideal (including community) is possible. In such a system rapacious greed thrives behind the guise of freedom, and the worst aspects of human nature come to the fore, a kind of intransigence as fierce and nonsensical as its maternalistic counterpart.
And so, in the clash of these two extreme systems, one is witness to brute stupidity and blood-splashed insensitivity; two belligerent faces glowering at each other across the unfathomed distance, and yet, in deed and in fanatic regard, they are but mirror reflections.
This would be amusing if it weren't so pathetically idiotic..."

and try to discern any differences from your common, patchouli-snorting everyday Marxist. It's like these fools actually believe that "moderate" isn't just another euphemism for Commie.

[LinearPhilosopher]

JheckHunter, on 12 September 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

I have been to Tea Party events and your average Tea Party member is a middle class American who wants low taxes for everyone and wants a balanced budget and some kind of fiscal sanity in the United States.

Wouldn't it also be great if we lived in a world where everyone got along and sang koombaya by the campfire every night? Or a world without conflicts,diseases, natural disasters etc.. and population expansion is never an issue?

This post has been edited by BalrogLord: 13 September 2012 - 07:30 PM